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Gas boiler not working, no pilot light. PCB fault?

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We've got an Ideal Classic gas boiler, probably as old as the house circa 2000. Woke up this morning, no hot water. Couldn't get any warmth in the radiators either, so it seems it's the boiler. … Read More
terriclarkfan Avatar
8m, 3w agoPosted 8 months, 3 weeks ago
We've got an Ideal Classic gas boiler, probably as old as the house circa 2000.

Woke up this morning, no hot water. Couldn't get any warmth in the radiators either, so it seems it's the boiler.

There's a sight window on the front of the boiler where I presume I should be able to see the pilot light, but can't. Have tried the pilot light re-ignition routine in the boiler instructions, but there's no sign of life.

One gas engineer gave me some phone advice that he reckons it's most likely the PCB for about £300.

British Gas will do a one-off repair for £99 plus an ongoing annual agreement for £21 x 12 months; that would seem to be the most economic option. If it *IS* the PCB I might as well have a year's cover rather than pay the same amount for a one-off repair.

Thoughts, please?
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terriclarkfan Avatar
8m, 3w agoPosted 8 months, 3 weeks ago
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(32) Jump to unreadPost an answer
Responses/page:
#1
just a thought, you haven't got any home emergency type cover included in your home insurance have you?
Worth a check, some people forget/don't know they have it
banned#2
Could be just the fuse or a matter of resetting it or a cheap thermocouple or fan or anything.

No way an engineer can tell over the phone.

Edited By: YouDontWantToKnow on Sep 01, 2016 15:41
banned#3
Does your gas cooker/fire work?
#4
I think I'd get another quote before committing to anything.
#5
YouDontWantToKnow
Does your gas cooker/fire work?
Yes.
banned#6
terriclarkfan
YouDontWantToKnow
Does your gas cooker/fire work?
Yes.

Well at least we know the gas hasnt been cut off. ;)

PCB board or a heat exchanger are expensive to repair. Anything else from 50p plus labour to £65 plus labour.

An the guy you talked to hasnt got a clue he is just guessing.



Edited By: YouDontWantToKnow on Sep 01, 2016 15:46
#7
given the boilers manufacture and age and an assumption on my part that you are aware as you much as you can be of its repair history and another assumption that you don't regularly have it serviced, I would think there is some life in the old dog yet.
You have 2 main options - replace it or repair it. With the latter option it then sub-divides down to other options. Get 3 free quotes both cost and time to start/finish from 3 reputable repairers and choose the best; living without boiler heated gas water until fixed. Go for BG and get fixed asap and commit to a years maintenance. Your decision will be based upon the strength of your finances. GL.
#8
phil001
just a thought, you haven't got any home emergency type cover included in your home insurance have you?
Worth a check, some people forget/don't know they have it

That suggestion was a big help - I just renewed my home insurance with Policy Expert and it DOES cover Home Emergencies. But I just called them and it doesn't cover boilers over 15 years old (can't hoodwink them, as the agent rang the boiler manufacturer with its serial number to ask when it was installed). Still, thanks for reminding me I had such cover. You tend to forget such things after a freezing cold shower. :)

Thank you to all for your replies.

Edited By: terriclarkfan on Sep 01, 2016 16:19
#9
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.

I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.

When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
banned#10
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?

You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
#11
mas99

When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?

None of that - it seems entirely dead. Sounds like you're quite comfortable with electronics to fix it yourself, but I know I wouldn't be.
#12
PCB fuse
#13
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
banned#14
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB

Yep. You do.
#15
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
Yep. You do.
Ahh ok, I understood that if you don't touch anything to do with gas/combustion, then you are alright.
I have just searched and can't come up with a definitive answer. Maybe you have a link?
banned#16
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
Yep. You do.
Ahh ok, I understood that if you don't touch anything to do with gas/combustion, then you are alright.
I have just searched and can't come up with a definitive answer. Maybe you have a link?

http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/hseboard/2013/250913/psepb1389-b.pdf

"Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 Approved Code of Practice and guidance.

“gas fittings” means gas pipework, valves (other than emergency controls), regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and appliances designed for use by consumers of gas for heating, lighting, cooking or other purposes for which gas can be used


“work” in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -
(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.
but the expression does not include the connection or disconnection of a bayonet fitting or other self-sealing connector."

IE when you replace any part on any gas appliance you are obligied by law to be registered. Else how would you know it works properly after tampering with it?
#17
Just another thing, you may find British Gas won't cover it under an agreement if it's over a certain age, so check this out.
#18
debbiedturner
Just another thing, you may find British Gas won't cover it under an agreement if it's over a certain age, so check this out.


Should be fine as I'll ideal is from 1997 and we're covered.
#19
I can't understand why people don't get their boilers serviced annually. Only issue I had with our ideal was that the grease in the fan dried up. A little oil and warming and the fan sprung again and the boiler struck up, no way I would of found that fault.
#20
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
Yep. You do.
Ahh ok, I understood that if you don't touch anything to do with gas/combustion, then you are alright.
I have just searched and can't come up with a definitive answer. Maybe you have a link?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/hseboard/2013/250913/psepb1389-b.pdf
"Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 Approved Code of Practice and guidance.
“gas fittings” means gas pipework, valves (other than emergency controls), regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and appliances designed for use by consumers of gas for heating, lighting, cooking or other purposes for which gas can be used
“work” in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -
(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.
but the expression does not include the connection or disconnection of a bayonet fitting or other self-sealing connector."
IE when you replace any part on any gas appliance you are obligied by law to be registered. Else how would you know it works properly after tampering with it?

It is rather tedious that people keep claiming that you MUST be a member of a specific body to do things.
hse guidance

30 For the purposes of these Regulations, “work” includes do-it-yourself
activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for
which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for
charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the
necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However,
membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is
required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work.

Page 2 of that document is also relevant.
For pretty much all regulations the documents published by the government are not actually law. they only show a common way of being in compliance with the law. It is surprizing how many council buildings regs people dont know this.

the gas and electric bodies do like to push the idea that you can't touch things yourself and must use one of their members - but that isnt true.

For what its worth I'm an engineer ( a real one) and I know enough to know what I can and cannot do safely myself. I understand how to use test equipment and own/ rent kit as needed.

Edited By: mas99 on Sep 01, 2016 20:17: m
#21
i would choose british gas as it is best to insure the boiler anyway. for the £21 per month, they will also carry out an annual service. call a gas engineer in to do the repairs and you could be paying quite a lot then the boiler breaks down again shortly as it is an old boiler.
#22
Below sight window there is a small nut holding in a thermocouple.You can see the thermocouple just in the middle of the pilot light flame.If this fails it stops gas passing through therefore no pilot light.Not expensive and easy to fit.
#23
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
Yep. You do.

I would have to agree. I saw a program on watchdog about rogue trader and a guy was arrested for carrying out work on the boiler when he was not gas safe registered. As soon as he opened the boiler up he was considered to have broken the law, the program states that you are not allowed to do anything to the boiler, whether electric or gas part of the boiler. The fact of the matter is that unless you are gas safe registered, you are not legally entitled to open the boiler and do any work on it.
#24
My old boiler need the water pressure to by at least 1 bar before the pilot light would come on. Used to have to turn a tap to allow cold water into the boiler and when I pushed the pilot light button it would come on but it was hard to see it though a light window.
#25
mutley1
i would choose british gas as it is best to insure the boiler anyway. for the £21 per month, they will also carry out an annual service. call a gas engineer in to do the repairs and you could be paying quite a lot then the boiler breaks down again shortly as it is an old boiler.


My thoughts exactly. I'll probably go with this option tomorrow.
#26
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998
3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
#27
The Ideal classic does not have a pilot light, its uses a electric ignition. By far the biggest fault with these is the flu fan, if you cannot hear it start to spin on start up then good bet that's the problem.. You can either remove the case and lubricate the top bearing with something like 3in1 oil (if competent to do so, of course), failing that you can get the whole fan assembly from part suppliers or e-bay for around £75, a doddle to fit (if competent to so, of course)..
banned#28
mas99
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
Yep. You do.
Ahh ok, I understood that if you don't touch anything to do with gas/combustion, then you are alright.
I have just searched and can't come up with a definitive answer. Maybe you have a link?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/hseboard/2013/250913/psepb1389-b.pdf
"Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 Approved Code of Practice and guidance.
“gas fittings” means gas pipework, valves (other than emergency controls), regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and appliances designed for use by consumers of gas for heating, lighting, cooking or other purposes for which gas can be used
“work” in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -
(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.
but the expression does not include the connection or disconnection of a bayonet fitting or other self-sealing connector."
IE when you replace any part on any gas appliance you are obligied by law to be registered. Else how would you know it works properly after tampering with it?
It is rather tedious that people keep claiming that you MUST be a member of a specific body to do things.
hse guidance

30 For the purposes of these Regulations, “work” includes do-it-yourself
activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for
which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for
charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the
necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However,
membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is
required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work.
Page 2 of that document is also relevant.
For pretty much all regulations the documents published by the government are not actually law. they only show a common way of being in compliance with the law. It is surprizing how many council buildings regs people dont know this.
the gas and electric bodies do like to push the idea that you can't touch things yourself and must use one of their members - but that isnt true.
For what its worth I'm an engineer ( a real one) and I know enough to know what I can and cannot do safely myself. I understand how to use test equipment and own/ rent kit as needed.

Its part of The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

Its law & not open to your interpretation. Its also jointly covered by HSE law.

You are not allowed to repair any part of a gas boiler unless you are qualified & gas safe registered.

In fact. The moment you remove the cover from the boiler to attempt to make a repair you are committing a criminal offence. Full stop.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/made

& the HSE requirement is to be Gas Safe registered.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/gas.htm

In domestic properties and workplaces such as shops, restaurants, schools and hospitals, this must be carried out by someone on the Gas Safe Register who is qualified to work on gas appliances.

It is illegal for an unregistered person to carry out work on any domestic gas appliance.

Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998
These Regulations cover work on gas fittings, both natural and LPG in other premises, eg domestic properties, shops, restaurants, schools and hospitals. In these premises the work on gas fittings must be carried out by someone on the Gas Safe Register.


Edited By: YouDontWantToKnow on Sep 02, 2016 14:53: clarity
#29
None of us during this thread, including me, established whether the OP lived in a privately rented property, social housing etc - and if yes answers would have been a little different!
#30
tardytortoise
None of us during this thread, including me, established whether the OP lived in a privately rented property, social housing etc - and if yes answers would have been a little different!


I'm privately owned. I'll go with the £300 British Gas option and hope it's the PCB rather than a simple fuse.
#31
Why not see if you can use help link and get a new boiler I don't think it will cost too much more than using British Gas and you get a new boilers with warranty to go with it
banned#32
mas99
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
ysdevil
YouDontWantToKnow
mas99
Does it have a pilot light? I have an ideal classic and there isnt a pilot light.
I replaced the PCB for £80 - found a supplier of a new one on ebay.
As boilers go they are fairly reliable. If you have a look at the PCB look at the two relays in clear plastic cases - seems quite common for something to fail which casues these to arc. I started by replacing the relay on the board but the problem reoccured a few weeks later and not having a diagram for the board I decided it was easier to just replace.
When you try to turn it on does it click ? can you hear the gas valve opening? does the igniter fire?
You replaced it yourself? Are you gas safe registered?
I don't think you need to be to change a PCB
Yep. You do.
Ahh ok, I understood that if you don't touch anything to do with gas/combustion, then you are alright.
I have just searched and can't come up with a definitive answer. Maybe you have a link?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/hseboard/2013/250913/psepb1389-b.pdf
"Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 Approved Code of Practice and guidance.
“gas fittings” means gas pipework, valves (other than emergency controls), regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and appliances designed for use by consumers of gas for heating, lighting, cooking or other purposes for which gas can be used
“work” in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -
(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.
but the expression does not include the connection or disconnection of a bayonet fitting or other self-sealing connector."
IE when you replace any part on any gas appliance you are obligied by law to be registered. Else how would you know it works properly after tampering with it?
It is rather tedious that people keep claiming that you MUST be a member of a specific body to do things.
hse guidance

30 For the purposes of these Regulations, “work” includes do-it-yourself
activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for
which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for
charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the
necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However,
membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is
required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work.
Page 2 of that document is also relevant.
For pretty much all regulations the documents published by the government are not actually law. they only show a common way of being in compliance with the law. It is surprizing how many council buildings regs people dont know this.
the gas and electric bodies do like to push the idea that you can't touch things yourself and must use one of their members - but that isnt true.
For what its worth I'm an engineer ( a real one) and I know enough to know what I can and cannot do safely myself. I understand how to use test equipment and own/ rent kit as needed.

Please do not repeat your comments anymore on any website.

You are incorrect & the advice you give is not only illegal but life threatening

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