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Nintendo 3DS Console & Game from £189.99 @ Game

£189.99 @ GAME
Get different deals, Nintendo 3DS & Game from £189.99 Perkup voucher not available with the deal Not forgetting the reward points you can rack up here
grizz808 Avatar
5y, 11m agoFound 5 years, 11 months ago
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#1
Can you use the Trade-in offer and get £180 back for the console, making the game £5?
#2
yes still doing £ 180 cashback. This code does not work with this console deal though...
#3
ianwalmsle1
yes still doing £ 180 cashback. This code does not work with this console deal though...

edited thanks, =)
#4
nice
dont feel need to buy atm though.
1 Like #5
Bet they got these consoles from tesco's and are selling them on ha ha ha ha
#6
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.
#7
bonzobanana
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.


Dont forget though that this comes with a free pair of "boz-eyes" and nausea for every user :D

Edited By: frakison on Apr 15, 2011 20:18
#8
Do you get reward points if u return the order???
#9
bonzobanana
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.


I believe it's two 266mhz ARM cpus, an 800x240 (or two 400x240) screen, 24 bit colour, wifi b/g, analogue input (circle pad), motion control, 1.5GB Flash, 128 MB FCRAM and an infra red port. The battery life may be low but it's packing significantly more than the old DS models so this was always expected. There's a reason why the DS Zeldas are top down quasi 3D affairs and the 3DS is showcasing Ocarina of Time in all its glory. ;)

Plus who's paying £40 for a game these days?

Edited By: Kanedaaaaaa on Apr 15, 2011 21:38
#10
bonzobanana
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.


Regardless of the specs, games look quite nice on it though. The visuals are much better than the 400x240 spec makes you think, this thing has excellent anti-aliasing capabilities. Everything looks much much smoother than on say the PSP, which may have a higher resolution screen in theory but in reality everything has white jaggies around it.
#11
Kanedaaaaaa
bonzobanana
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.




I believe it's two 266mhz ARM cpus, an 800x240 (or two 400x240) screen, 24 bit colour, wifi b/g, analogue input (circle pad), motion control, 1.5GB Flash, 128 MB FCRAM and an infra red port. The battery life may be low but it's packing significantly more than the old DS models so this was always expected. There's a reason why the DS Zeldas are top down quasi 3D affairs and the 3DS is showcasing Ocarina of Time in all its glory. ;)

Plus who's paying £40 for a game these days?


One arm is the main processor and the other does all support tasks as per earlier models as there isn't multiple support processors like the psp and other designs, i.e. it does sound, wifi etc. The 800x240 resolution is never available as even when in 2D mode its double horizontal pixel size and in 3D its mapped over each other to give the 3D effect at 400x240. In 3D mode you only got 30fps unlike in 2D mode which can be 60fps. Basically the 3D is done by halving the frame rate. It has 64MEG ram and 4 meg video less than the later PSP models which also have 2meg memory for its 333mhz second processor as well as an arm chip. Ocarina of Time is a game that ran on the ancient N64 at a higher resolution and was only a 32 megabyte cartridge. An excellent game but incredibly old game engine. The DS would have no problem running Ocarina of Time just like it had no problem running Mario 64. The 3DS while more powerful than DS and DSi its probably weaker than PSP in cpu terms but has better/updated gpu features thanks to its Pica200 lite gpu. It already has slowdown and frame rate issues in fairly dated games like Rayman 3D for example. A game that ran on the original playstation. There are clearly issues with the 3DS hardware its showing very poor performance at times. You could put it down to poor programming but even Dead or Alive which is done by awesome coders has slowdown in 3D mode at only 30fps.

Like the wii the 3DS is a cheap compromised design.

Considering how technology is soo much cheaper now since the DS came out this model could have practically come in at the same sort of price level even allowing for the 3D screen as the DS maybe £110 but instead they tried to get £220 for it.
#12
Talicus
bonzobanana
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.


Regardless of the specs, games look quite nice on it though. The visuals are much better than the 400x240 spec makes you think, this thing has excellent anti-aliasing capabilities. Everything looks much much smoother than on say the PSP, which may have a higher resolution screen in theory but in reality everything has white jaggies around it.


From what I've seen the 3DS owns jaggies/aliasing and many psp games are rock solid 60fps so are definitely smoother but the psp gpu while faster at 166mhz can not make up for the lack of some improved features the 3ds gpu has but thats about the only area the 3ds beats it. The current psp3000 is no slouch in graphics overall compared to 3ds and you can connect it to a tv for occasional big screen gaming and its quite respectable although obviously low res at 480x272.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsGVYFBxY88&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU4WGD8kClY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_iVs21z7O8

The 3DS just isn't very good and the psp is competing very well with it technically which it shouldn't be doing considering the psp is getting on 7 years old. It just shows the total cost cutting of the 3DS.

Even cheapo android tablets sub £100 have 1ghz processors now with 333mhz gpus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S3akZBJkao
#13
The DS Lite has a 67MHz CPU, 4MB RAM and 256KB of internal storage, which I think is amazing considering what it can do, especially when you've tried out the homebrew applications on offer. I'm surprised at what little innovation Nintendo have brought to the DS since 2007. And now in 2011, the design is better, the specs are better, but what really is new apart from 3D and a bunch of useless cameras?

The future of portable gaming will be on smartphones and ipod touch-like devices. No matter how many more dimensions Nintendo puts into the DS and how many CPU cores Sony puts into their PSP, smartphones will win in the end.
#14
Nintendo simply charge money for their 'innovations' So they think they can save a few quid by using a crap battery and old designs . A lot like the APPLE strategy.
It annoys me that people are willing to pay £200 for a gimmick and reward Nintendo's cheapskate products.
I cant wait for Sony to wake Nintendo up with their NGP
#15
I'm not knocking the 3DS I think its specification is more than capable of some great games but that price of £200 with £40 cartridges its such a rip off. I just think the specification needed to be much better to merit £200. Its really the cartridges that are the biggest rip off though. They are charging £40 a game and yet the carts appear to be tiny with little gameplay content. They've even got a pacman/galaga cart coming out for £40. Its almost like Nintendo want android devices to conquer handheld gaming.

That said I think if the carts were £40 but the console price was subsidised i.e. £99 that wouldn't seem so bad or alternatively the game were £25 and the console £175 again more reasonable.

Nintendo just seem to be exploiting their fanbase as much as possible. Its the same as football clubs, they know they have the loyalty of their fans so screw them for every penny hence many loyal fans are priced out of watching their teams and many footballers earn more in a week than most people earn in a year.
#16
I traded mine in yesterday at game and if you intend to get the full £180 cash its only around until the 28th April so best get in before the drop, hmv already dropped cash trade in to £156
#17
bonzobanana
Kanedaaaaaa
bonzobanana
Not a bad deal but a 266mhz cpu/133mhz gpu console with a 400x240 resolution and 3hr battery life is not worth anywhere near £200 and the games at £40 is beyond a joke. I'm more than happy playing Zelda spirit tracks on my DS lite with a 12hr battery life. Which is probably a bigger cartridge in capacity than the first generation 3DS games.




I believe it's two 266mhz ARM cpus, an 800x240 (or two 400x240) screen, 24 bit colour, wifi b/g, analogue input (circle pad), motion control, 1.5GB Flash, 128 MB FCRAM and an infra red port. The battery life may be low but it's packing significantly more than the old DS models so this was always expected. There's a reason why the DS Zeldas are top down quasi 3D affairs and the 3DS is showcasing Ocarina of Time in all its glory. ;)

Plus who's paying £40 for a game these days?


One arm is the main processor and the other does all support tasks as per earlier models as there isn't multiple support processors like the psp and other designs, i.e. it does sound, wifi etc. The 800x240 resolution is never available as even when in 2D mode its double horizontal pixel size and in 3D its mapped over each other to give the 3D effect at 400x240. In 3D mode you only got 30fps unlike in 2D mode which can be 60fps. Basically the 3D is done by halving the frame rate. It has 64MEG ram and 4 meg video less than the later PSP models which also have 2meg memory for its 333mhz second processor as well as an arm chip. Ocarina of Time is a game that ran on the ancient N64 at a higher resolution and was only a 32 megabyte cartridge. An excellent game but incredibly old game engine. The DS would have no problem running Ocarina of Time just like it had no problem running Mario 64. The 3DS while more powerful than DS and DSi its probably weaker than PSP in cpu terms but has better/updated gpu features thanks to its Pica200 lite gpu. It already has slowdown and frame rate issues in fairly dated games like Rayman 3D for example. A game that ran on the original playstation. There are clearly issues with the 3DS hardware its showing very poor performance at times. You could put it down to poor programming but even Dead or Alive which is done by awesome coders has slowdown in 3D mode at only 30fps.

Like the wii the 3DS is a cheap compromised design.

Considering how technology is soo much cheaper now since the DS came out this model could have practically come in at the same sort of price level even allowing for the 3D screen as the DS maybe £110 but instead they tried to get £220 for it.


I believe you can get 60fps in 3D mode and it's already been achieved with a launch title - Super Monkey Ball. I think the comparison to the PSP's age and the tech involved is a little unfair as that console was well ahead of its time and had to be sold at a loss, something Nintendo will never do. As for the performance, i think the early titles showing some teething troubles is more attributable to the lackadaisical attitude Nintendo had to getting dev kits out as early as possible which has led to the many ports with cut-down features being released rather than any fault of the hardware. Even the best coders can't work miracles porting to a completely new system in under a year.

Sony and Nintendo are two companies with completely different business models, Nintendo follow Apple's design (like it or not, personally i'm not so keen) of assuming the experience and core software will be enough of a draw. I'll admit i think the price is top heavy and i wouldn't have picked one up without getting a trade-in, but even with the DS Lite showing its age and vastly inferior graphics to the PSP it still shifts units and would do at any price because the games are there, something Sony have shown an inability to conjure up in any numbers for their handhelds, which is why i doubt the NGP will be any more successful than the N-gage.
#18
As far as I'm aware Monkey Ball is the only 60fps game and it does that by offering graphics no better than DS. If all 3DS games followed that pattern I don't think many people would be happy. It does however show the limitations of the 3DS. Even simple games like Rayman 3D that were on the psx/n64 have adopted 30 fps for 3D mode. Why? Also Monkey Ball is incredibly cut down compared to the DS version with less mini games etc and yet the game retails for £40? The thing is the 3DS isn't complicated, there is nothing radical or revolutionary about the arm chips used, same as before but faster. Remove the 3D from the 3DS and you have a console that might just beat the PSP although realistically I don't think it will because of the PSP's dual 333mhz mips cores and support processors but with 3D on you have something easily inferior in cpu terms.

People keep blaming lazy developers when it comes to Nintendo consoles but the reality is they aren't very powerful.
#19
bonzobanana
As far as I'm aware Monkey Ball is the only 60fps game and it does that by offering graphics no better than DS. If all 3DS games followed that pattern I don't think many people would be happy. It does however show the limitations of the 3DS. Even simple games like Rayman 3D that were on the psx/n64 have adopted 30 fps for 3D mode. Why? Also Monkey Ball is incredibly cut down compared to the DS version with less mini games etc and yet the game retails for £40? The thing is the 3DS isn't complicated, there is nothing radical or revolutionary about the arm chips used, same as before but faster. Remove the 3D from the 3DS and you have a console that might just beat the PSP although realistically I don't think it will because of the PSP's dual 333mhz mips cores and support processors but with 3D on you have something easily inferior in cpu terms.

People keep blaming lazy developers when it comes to Nintendo consoles but the reality is they aren't very powerful.


But the point is that it is possible and has already been done, so it is not impossible as previously stated. Even the PS3 has had to make scarifices with frame rates when it comes to 3D, just look at something as basic as the Sly Trilogy, and i doubt anyone is proclaiming that console to be vastly underpowered. As for the quality of the games thus far, in both graphics and gameplay terms launch titles are usually underwhelming, particularly 3rd party games for Nintendo consoles, and the cut down nature of many has nothing to do with hardware limitations but instead the time frame for producing the games. When you talk of "beating" another console, Nintendo have consistently shown in the handheld market that raw power has nothing to do with their strategy, and given how profitable it has proven thus far i doubt they are overly worried about changing tack now.




Edited By: Kanedaaaaaa on Apr 16, 2011 13:03: Pismelling
#20
I'm certainly not going to argue with the success of Nintendo and how their strategy works my point is the 3DS has serious limitations which means software titles won't be too ambitious. As a consumer its difficult to see how powerful a new console is sometimes and you get a lot of hype around launch time. Just need to be realistic about its level of performance and not carried away by the hype.
#21
The 3DS is a remarkable piece of technology and is well conceived as a portable console. Lot of misinformation going on here. There really should be a member rating options to deal with all fanatics.

If it's really a power thing then 3DS is in access of the PSP. Since its games are on solid state memory unlike mechanical storage in the PSP, it is able to read far faster and therefore onboard memory can be reserved for necessary tasks rather than just buffering.

No doubt the NGP will be a powerhouse. It's price will probably be so. The amount of power it claims it will carry is impressive. Still, it's little improvement other than fancier graphics and a technically cool but practically unproven touchscreen. The problem with waiting for the next big thing is that you're always waiting.

A lot of claims on Ocarina of Time are just plain untrue. If you read up on the game you will see that it is a fresh rebuild with updated graphics. I'm not a fan of ports but keep facts right.

At the end of the day here is my advice.

List the games you want to play. If more of them are on the 3DS then buy one. If more are on NGP then wait for it. Leave the spec wars for the ana1.

Edited By: Garie on Apr 16, 2011 21:57
#22
You appear to be the fanatic though. Your first line is remarkable piece of technology and then claim misinformation because someone doesn't agree with your view. You may not be aware the 3DS cartridges are heavily compressed and encrypted so the games actually do take some time to load and load in extra levels. Many psp owners download their games from the playstation store and all minigames are on memory cards.

What is untrue about Ocarina of time? Its a visual makeover of an old N64 game. Mainly the character models have been improved.

Comparison here;

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nicagamerz.com%2Fv6%2Fnews%2F226%2Fzelda-ocarina-of-time-3ds-vs-n64%2F

Its not a lot of difference all things considered.

I would totally agree about the games, its always about the games but the important point is to really justify the purchase price of close to £200 you obviously want some seriously amazing games. The 360 and PS3 are in the same price territory and while not portable they have some incredible games often much cheaper than 3DS games. Many of the 3DS games are quite dire and no way reflect their £40 price tag.

Specs are important. If someone tells you something has the power of the wii and yet its a marginal improvement in power over the DSi that is misinformation.

Rent a 3DS try out the best games and see what you think. You may want to part with £300 for a 3DS and a few games or alternatively you may realise its a very weak console. Its got a good gpu and some of the game do look quite nice at 400x240 but many will want a deeper longer lasting game experience than currently offered. Remember PSP, DS/DSi, IOS and Android devices offer comparable portable gaming experiences at much reduced prices. The argument that 3DS runs DS games doesn't really hold water as the DS range batteries last upto 3x as long, play the games with better display quality and load the games faster.

I'm not knocking the console I'm just making the point its not very powerful (surely obvious from the games that have been launched) and its very expensive for what it is.
#23
I agree with many of your points, but i fear you are basing too much of your argument on the rushed launch titles (surely never a good indication of a console's capabilities?) and the price point. Even if the RRP is high for carts, very few (in term of overall sales) will likely sell at RRP and bear in mind that the PSP games you mention for download will not drop as quickly given they are/will be only available from the PlayStation store. Also, when stating the hardware differences you seem to continually miss out the main aspect - the 3D, which, from the marketing so far trotted out, is the central selling point.

Even if you consider the architecture of the console to be too similar to aged technology, there is a central differentiating factor and the price point, though arguably exploitative, is based upon the fact that a manufacturer has no competition in the market for such a device. Whether people think the 3D is good or bad, if the consumer wishes to play such games on a handheld there is no alternative, hence the business model of a high starting price a la the iPad.

There are a lot of rabid Nintendo fanboys making spurious claims ("It's like a wii in your pocket!"), but unfortunately there are just as many unfairly criticising the console ("It's just a DS with 3D tacked on") - as usual the truth is somewhere in between.

Good discussion though, nice to find a debate about the console that doesn't descend rapidly - a hard thing to find among most gaming sites.


Edited By: Kanedaaaaaa on Apr 17, 2011 11:01
#24
bonzobanana
Considering how technology is soo much cheaper now since the DS came out this model could have practically come in at the same sort of price level even allowing for the 3D screen as the DS maybe £110 but instead they tried to get £220 for it.


You do realise you're compaining about a console with a £220 price point, in a forum which is about the thing costing £30 less with a free game on top?

And FYI, Nintendo never tried to get £220 for it, they never gave it an RRP, It's 100% at the discretion of the retailers to price the 3DS at whatever they like, the retailers were trying to be greedy and didn't get away with it.
I don't see what your problem is with a £40 RRP for games. You seem to be a fan of the PSP (claiming that it's comparable in terms of power to the 3DS) when its games RRP at £35 with many games selling direct from Sony on the PS store (without the cost of packaging, shelf space and retailers mark-up) for £40 and like you've said, the PSP is pretty old now, its games should be lower in price than when it first game out, especially with its replacement due out in under a year.

Edited By: hero9989 on Apr 17, 2011 19:41
#25
My view is the 3DS is about the same power as PSP, the gpu is better, the cpu arrangment is slower, as an established product the psp already has many fantastic titles and both the console and games are much cheaper than 3DS but I can't argue with the fact the 3DS is 3D though. If 3D is a big thing for you then the 3DS's worth goes up accordingly. If your not interested in 3D though its a different matter.
#26
The trade price for the 3DS was meant to be somewhere between £170-180. I really don't think retailers were being too greedy at £220. It doesn't sound like a huge margin to me, £45 on a £220 item when you consider the difference in price has VAT on it as well. So probably over a fiver of that goes to the VAT man. Nintendo's trade price in the uk/europe is considerably higher than japan or america and I think thats what people were moaning about. Its not a retailer issue. Luckily there was a price war over the 3DS. Some retailers ordered too many and maybe were worried about having too much stock so cut margins considerably.
#27
@bonzobanana
And of course Sony don't do encryption on the PSP? :D You're so desperate to justify one technology over the other it's hilarious. You even resort to claiming someone is a fanatic because and I quote:

Your first line is remarkable piece of technology and then claim misinformation because someone doesn't agree with your view


So first problem with your claim is that you classify anyone who expresses that they are enjoying the 3DS or find it remarkable as a fanatic.

Second, you try to claim I am positioning myself against someone not agreeing with my view. This is strange considering that this is my first post in this thread and so have not yet stated my view.

Third, to support your claim you conveniently leave out the point which subsequently expresses that the power output purported by Sony as belonging to the NGP will be impressive. I suspect that you do this because you also do not wish to acknowledge the potential price issue also raised.

In fact, my argument is to base whether you wish to buy a 3DS or wait for an NGP entirely on the games that the individual wishes to play. Hardly a fanatical viewpoint.

Fourth, you continue to try and support your argument with further technical misinformation. All manufacturers use compression algorithms for data storage not just Nintendo. Of course, this is simply misdirection on your part from dealing with the reality previously expressed that cartridge formats are far faster and stream quicker than optical media, such as UMD. You simply try to point the focus away from the challenge made to your earlier argument claiming that PSP was better because you believe it to have more memory. When in fact, the PSP to avoid buffering and lengthy load times has to use that memory to compensate for read speed and search issues, a problem shared across optical disk-based media. It's also a well-documented fact that the PSP processor speed had to be limited by software due to battery concerns therefore direct hardware configuration comparisons are somewhat mute. My point is simply that no one piece of technical hardware governs a product's performance. The PSP was a nice portable just as the DS was a nice portable. They both had flaws and both had pluses.

The 3DS, however, does perform in excess of the potential that the PSP has. This has been documented by game developers. It will not come anywhere near the potential of the NGP though, which is fine. As someone else has stated, basing opinions on launch titles as demonstrative of total capability of any format is ridiculous. Even soon to release games such as Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil are already demonstrating incredible graphics and performance for a handheld game. And before you try to go there, the developers have documented that this level has not previously been capable on portables. This is a level of attainment managed in 3D as well.

Of course that is due to the fact that it utilises a reported parallel cpu configuration, using two suggested ARM processors. Proven to allow increased performance over faster single cpu designs. The reason why both Sony and Microsoft both switched to parallel architectures was for that very reason. The Cell processor being the leading edge of such thinking. For example, the human brain is far slower in speed at processing than our fastest single core processors. However, we can outperform in real world tasks by the parallel architecture of our neuron network structure. A concept that lead to the development in machine learning of the artificial neural network. While not knowing the NGP specs offhand. I suspect that it will use a cell processor with multi-cores to achieve its performance potential. Once again, I iterate that hardware components in isolation mean very little.

Your new claims of load times being slower for DS games is partially true. For the initial loading, the difference is between 3 to 5 seconds longer. However, once loaded there is no discernible difference according to the test undertaken by Kotaku. Of course, it's still a plus that the 3DS is backwards compatible at all with its previous counterpart. You will be aware that UMD is being dropped for the NGP.

The 3DS battery life with full 3D, wifi and brightness on is poor. Just as battery life was poor with PSP and I'd be shocked if it wasn't also the case with NGP. Nobody should be making excuses for poor battery performance in technology intended for portability. Personally, rather than working on increasing the graphics performance, I'd rather all these companies work on better battery technology for portables.

At the end of the day, I look forward to having the opportunity to sample the NGP. My demonstration of the 3DS convinced me to purchase it and I've enjoyed it. I hope to find the same with the NGP. Whether any fanatics like it or not, competition drives all parties forward to the benefit of the gamer.

With all this said though, your actions have been an abuse of this forum. Your issue is a fanatical view of one company's technology against another and has nothing to do with the quality of the deal. You seem to feel the need to take up your soap box and continue on a one man stance against any members who are interested in the 3DS or who already own one and can give first hand accounts. Stating your opinion in support of your vote is valid. However, you are pursuing other opinions with desperation to shout them down. It's sad and pathetic.

People are engaging with you with there being no point in doing so. You will never accept another opinion different from yours and will always feel the need to argue down anyone in disagreement of you.

At the end of the day, all technologies can stand and fall on their own two feet without fanatical preachers. And, to be honest, the first sign of failure is often the desperate shouting down of everyone else.




Edited By: Garie on Apr 18, 2011 18:02
#28
@Garie

Most of your post is some sort of attack on me as some sort of false messenger and sony fanatic which I'm certainly not. You've not made your case in anyway at all because instead of matching my points you've strayed into attacking me.

You've made a case for the 3DS being more powerful than PSP with its dual 266mhz arm chip with no mention of the fact the psp has dual mips processors at 333mhz in a similar configuration where one supports the other. Which is the same concept as previous Nintendo models too. The only difference is the psp has a few extra minor support chips like an arm for sound etc.

When someone fills a post with words like desperate, hilarious, abuse, sad, pathetic and likes adding laughing faces to the end of sentences its not exactly difficult to work out the sort of person you are. Your most likely a child or someone whose mental age is close to one.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me at all strangely enough but I will argue my case if I think their points are wrong. I personally want a 3DS myself believe it or not I'm just making the case its poor value in a forum all about value.

Surely you would agree the time for people to buy a 3DS is when there are a good selection of titles to justify its purchase and use the hardware properly. That certainly isn't now. Remember its £40 a cartridge RRP. Thats a huge amount of money in portable gaming terms when you can buy a whole load of games for that money for a android or apple device and even with the psp that could get you 5 or so discounted games of similar or even superior quality. Many downloadable games like super stardust are only about a fiver on psp. In value terms the 3DS is a joke.

Nintendo are doing the same with the 3DS as the wii, they are presenting a low spec device as a high spec device with a large price tag. Surely you don't want people to fall victim to a scam like that again. The wii is one of the most underused consoles of all time with a terrible attachment rate of software sold per console. Many people are happy with the wii but a huge amount of people simply don't use it because of its poor performance and it just gathers dust. The 3DS is showing signs of being just the same sort of console. A dual core 266mhz processor is rubbish by today's standards, the psp is dual core 333mhz and that dates back to 2004. Its just not very good and will limit what can be achieved with the 3DS considerably.

Why do you want to pretend its more powerful than it is? If you accept that the 3DS has a dual core 266mhz arm chip then what is the problem, we both know that is a weak configuration. I bought a cheap generic android tablet for £85 its got a 1ghz arm chip, 333mhz gpu, 256meg of memory. thats about 3x the cpu, 3x the gpu, 4x the memory of the 3DS for a third of the price. The games are about 1/20th of the price and many of them are visually stronger than 3DS.

Already android games have surpassed the capabilities of the 3DS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWEmLZTGs04&feature=fvst
#29
PSP Product Specifications

Product Name: PlayStation Portable (PSP)
Color: Black
Dimensions: Approx. 170 mm (L) x 74 mm (W) x 23 mm (D)
Weight: Approx. 260 g (including battery)
CPU: PSP CPU (System clock frequency 1~333MHz) (Locked to 222Mhz)
Main Memory: 32MB
Embedded DRAM: 4MB
Display: 4.3 inch, 16:9 widescreen TFT LCD, 480 x 272 pixel (16.77 million colors), Max. 200 cd/m2 (with brightness control)
Speakers: Built-in stereo speakers
Main Input/Output: IEEE 802.11b (Wi-Fi), USB 2.0 (Target), Memory Stick™ PRO Duo, IrDA, IR Remote (SIRCS)
Disc Drive: UMD Drive (Playback only)
Profile: PSP Game, UMD Audio, UMD Video
Main Connectors: DC OUT 5V, Terminals for charging built-in battery, Headphone/Microphone/Control connector
Keys/Switches: Directional buttons (Up/Down/Right/Left)Analog pad, Enter keys (Triangle, Circle, Cross, Square), Left, Right keys START, SELECT, HOME, POWER On/Hold/Off switch, Brightness control, Sound Mode, Volume +/-, Wireless LAN On/Off switch, UMD Eject
Power: Built-in lithium-ion battery, AC adaptor
Access Control: Region Code, Parental Control
Accessories: Stand, Headphone with remote commander, Headphone with remote commander and microphone, External battery pack, Case, Strap
E3 Prototype Exhibition: USB Camera for PSP, USB GPS for PSP, USB Keyboard for PSP
UMD Specifications

Dimensions: Approx. 65 mm (W) x 64 mm (D) x 4.2 mm (H)
Weight: Approx. 10g
Disc Diameter: 60 mm
Maximum Capacity: 1.8GB (Single-sided, dual layer)
Laser wavelength: 660nm (Red laser)
Encryption: AES 128bit
Profile: PSP Game (full function), UMD Audio (codec ATRAC3plus™, PCM, (MPEG4 AVC)), UMD Video (codec MPEG4 AVC, ATRAC3plus™, Caption PNG)


The original PSP specs which are the ones that game developers design for. Of interest is the initial onboard memory. You are right in that there are two mips processors: one for the cpu and one acting as a media engine. Both are set at 222MHz and based on the R4000 series initially released in 1991, the series that is.

PSP CPU Chip:
Sony CXD2962GG CPU
Based on MIPS R4000 32-bit Core
90 nm Semiconductor CMOS Process
1-333 MHz (set at 222 MHz by default) @ 1.2 V
16 KB Instruction Cache / 16 KB Data Cache
SiP:
32 MB eDRAM @ 2.6 Gbps
Embedded FPU
Embedded Vector FPU @ 2.6 GFLOPS
Embedded Graphics Core:
1-166 MHz (set at 111 MHz by default) @ 1.2 V
256-bit Bus at 5.3 Gbps
2 MB eDRAM (VRAM)
3D Curved Surface and 3D Polygon
Compressed Textures
Hardware Clipping, Morphing, Bone(8)
Hardware Tessellator
Bézier surface, Bézier curve and B-Spline (NURBS)
4×4, 16×16, 64×64 Subdivision
Rendering Engine and Surface Engine
Pixel Fill Rate: 664 Megapixels/s
Up to 33 Million Polygon/s (with Transform and Lighting)
24-bit Full Color: RGBA
128-bit Bus at 2.6 Gbit/s
3D-CG Extended Instruction Set
Media Engine Chip:
Sony CXD1876 CPU
Based on MIPS R4000 32-bit Core
90 nm Semiconductor CMOS Process
1-333 MHz (set at 222 MHz by default) @ 1.2 V
16 KB Instruction Cache / 16 KB Data Cache
SiP:
2 MB eDRAM @ 2.6 Gbps
Embedded Virtual Mobile Engine (VME) Sound Core
Reconfigurable DSP Engine
1-166 MHz (set at 166 MHz by default) @ 1.2 V
128-bit Bus
24-bit Data Path
5 GFlops
Embedded MPEG-4 (H.264/AVC) hardware decoder
Embedded FPU
128-bit Bus @ 2.6 Gbit/s


I can't help noticing that once again you are obsessed with numbers and the number of processing cycles, which btw are unconfirmed and largely stem from an IGN story claiming specs were leaked in September 2010, which are probably close enough. http://uk.gear.ign.com/articles/112/1122613p1.html

IGN has learned that the Nintendo 3DS will pack not one, but two 266MHz ARM11 CPUs, along with a 133MHz GPU, 4MBs of dedicated VRAM, 64MBs of RAM, and 1.5GBs of flash storage.


Processing cycle speeds are non comparable between different generations of chips without an extensive consideration for the processing activity occurring. The goal of most serious hardware research is to bring down the speed but increase the processing ability.

IGN
While we were unable to determine which variation of the ARM11 processors the 3DS will feature, we now have a better sense of the system's capabilities. Currently there are a number of devices being powered by the ARM11, including the Zune HD, a variety of Android smartphones, and prior to the introduction of Apple's A4 processor, the iPhone and iPod touch.

As we learned in June, the 3DS' GPU has been named DMP's PICA200, which features a maximum processing speed of roughly 200MHz, though it seems Nintendo is scaling it back a bit for use in the 3DS. Numerous developers working on software for the platform have likened its graphical capabilities to current-generation consoles like the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, albeit on smaller, lower-resolution screens.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM11

The ARM11 series is the latest model of a line of RISC processors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC
The range has vastly differing abilities within it.

ARM11 Processor Family

The ARM11™ processor family provides the engine that powers many smartphones in production today; it is also widely used in consumer, home, and embedded applications. It delivers extreme low power and a range of performance from 350 MHz in small area designs up to 1 GHz in speed optimized designs in 45 and 65 nm. ARM11 processor software is compatible with all previous generations of ARM processors, and introduces 32-bit SIMD for media processing, physically tagged caches to improve OS context switch performance, TrustZone for hardware-enforced security, and tightly coupled memories for real-time applications.


The truth is that it is not just the speed at which a processor runs but the activities it performs each cycle that govern performance. These complexities are the reason why I state once again. Base it on games because specification comparisons are not as straight forward as which number is the biggest.

Your comparison of a single ARM processor with non-descript model type against parallel ARM 11 processors supports the fact that your view is not as informed as you would have others believe. Better yet, your belief that you can use cycle speed comparison alone to compare a 2004 processor against a modern processor proves your knowledge as popularised interpretation rather academic or industry comprehension.

Now as for comparison of 3DS retail price against PSP bargain bin prices... Still on the main RRP comparison front. The PSP RRP price has come down a bit with new releases around RRP of £29.99 to £34.99. Of course, with bargain hunting you avoid those prices. Still, many bargains can be found in a reduced price at the end of a console's life. As for comparing downloadable games against RRP high street titles, are you taking into account the digital services for the 3DS?

Your trailer was very nice. Almost as good as Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil on the 3DS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es0xReoS2nA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSX3PvB4Qlo&feature=related

As to your frame rate issues. Rayman 3DS has severe porting related issues. Dead or Alive is also a port from the original game. For proper consideration of frame rates you would have to look at games developed for the 3DS. Pilotwings comes to mind. All this is software though and the result of game development not console development.

Even at that, android is an operating system and as such games on it are governed by overall architecture. This is why the power tablets are so much more expensive.

Finally, I never mentioned any one person in my initial post. You simply jumped to the conclusion that it was all intended at you (which wasn't the case - it was aimed at a collective sampling of posts from various posters); you were going on the defensive. Your personalised post against my own prompted my response to your post. You would appear to be the person that cannot entertain people getting enjoyment from anything not sanctioned and approved by your opinion.

As for "mental age", I think I won that argument when you felt the need to sink to that level. Of course, basing your definition upon someone describing your own negative actions and behaviour helps back my point as well.

At the end of the day your comments and comparisons are technically misinformed and misleading. Even with my own years of experience in computer science, myself and colleagues would never consider such a comparison between ARM and MIPS processors (nor any other types) on the basis of cpu cycles. Most experts would agree it's a very lengthy study to ascertain which has the better performance characteristics and under which scenarios. At any rate, much can be done with good programming skills and solid middleware.

So once again I state whichever one has the games you're interested in then that's the one to buy; regardless of technical specifications. When you see the best deal on a format that you can afford and you know that there are enough titles on it, or specific ones coming to it, that you can enjoy then it's a good deal for you. Nothing else matters. Certainly, technical doom-mongering plays little part in game enjoyment.


Edited By: Garie on Apr 19, 2011 02:04: Adding info
1 Like #30
Bought this the other day, £189.99 for 3DS + Super Monkey Ball. Got about £4 of points, a couple of quid Quidco, then went in today and got £180 cash, didn't have to show the purchase note, just needed ID and took them a few minutes to check it over. Could have got £190 trade-in credit instead. So Super Monkey Ball 3D for less than a fiver :)
#31
@Garie

None of the information you've posted is new to me. I know mips is different to arm architecture but that doesn't mean it isn't comparable. Dual processors are always inferior to a the same processor running singlely at twice the mhz given enough memory bandwidth of course. Optimising code on a dual processor environment is always harder and the more processors the harder it gets.

You know as much as I do that a port of a multiformat title to the 3DS has no reason to be poor. Why would Rayman 3D have severe porting related issues? Its an incredibly primitive game it should excel on 3DS with extra detail and a solid 60fps frame rate in 3D.

Its pretty obvious we disagree on the potential of the 3DS. I certainly agree that the 3DS has a better GPU than PSP with a few more updated features. Where we obviously disagree is the potential of the system overall with regard its cpu power and its ability to create ambitious 3D games that have already been achieved on PSP. Time will tell.

The tone of your replies is still incredibly childish and aggressive. I assume neither of us have shares in Sony and Nintendo to start worrying about their market position.

Remember with the wii people kept saying amazing games were just around the corner and that there was unlocked potential waiting to be uncovered. It never happened because it was a gamecube ran 50% faster and was limited by old hardware. The 3DS is crippled by a slow gpu and cpu and while the psp is at the end of its life cycle the 3DS has just started its with a comparable specification. Nintendo haven't pushed the envelope at all so how its meant to fare in the next few years I don't know. Nintendo haven't allowed any future proofing at all. I'm not saying its not worth buying and there isn't fun to be had I'm just trying to make the point its not very powerful which is obvious by both its spec and the games.
#32
bonzobanana
@Garie

None of the information you've posted is new to me. I know mips is different to arm architecture but that doesn't mean it isn't comparable. Dual processors s are always inferior to a the same processor running singlely at twice the mhz given enough memory bandwidth of course.


So you are aware that, even as you were claiming the PSP to members of this forum as having two 333MHz R4000 processors, they were in fact locked to a maximum of 222MHz. And you are also aware that the two ARM11 processors in the 3DS are running with a minimum of 333MHz each, potentially rising much higher depending upon the model of chips selected by Nintendo. Therefore, by establishing that you were aware of all this information previously you also establish that you were consciously misleading others by claiming that the 3DS CPU technology was not substantially in access of that achievable by the PSP.

In other words, you've finally made an admission that you were in fact wilfully misleading potential 3DS customers and members of this site with partial truths and outright erroneous claims.

You know as much as I do that a port of a multiformat title to the 3DS has no reason to be poor. Why would Rayman 3D have severe porting related issues? Its an incredibly primitive game it should excel on 3DS with extra detail and a solid 60fps frame rate in 3D.


Your comment as to why Rayman 3D would have severe porting issues is related to a very sloppy Ubisoft attitude to porting and the fact that Rayman was originally written for an older 2D architecture (predominantly the Dreamcast and N64) pre-dating the complexities of modern cpu and gpu designs. Multiformat development is usually undertaken with the range of architectures known in advance and 3D development was not even considered in the original code. In fact, issues with Rayman ports have been brought up on a number of formats. Clearly, you are admitting a lack of basic understanding of software development and how written code affects performance. The 3DS does not share N64 or Dreamcast architectural ancestry so it is not a case of transferring the code as is over to it. Ubisoft simply did not undertake all the necessary optimisation of code to the new architectural platform. Read a few game site reviews of Rayman 3DS and you'll see that Ubisoft port quality has been an ongoing issue.

If you still think that Ubisoft's porting is not the issue here then please explain why Pilotwings shares none of the Rayman 3DS issues?

Dual processors are always inferior to a the same processor running singlely at twice the mhz given enough memory bandwidth of course.


Once again you're making a claim that is simply untrue. Read up on parallelism versus pseudo-parallelism. You should also explore multi-threaded development. The fact that parallel processing is more powerful than single is the very premise that strove the development of Sony's cell processor. In computer science it is well understood that should computers be invented today they would be parallel processing from the beginning.

Single core processing has to achieve pseudo-parallelism by only undertaking one thing at a time and suspending that activity for each other activity that should be running in parallel. For a simplistic example, pausing to check for game controller input, switching between physics calculations, AI processing, graphics processing, etc.

Parallel processing reduces the need to alternate CPU time between various code threads instead allowing the heaviest code to run uninterrupted simultaneously. This has a dramatic increase in performance if software is developed correctly in accordance with parallelistic and multi-threaded design philosophies.

The increased skill by software developers in this realm of programming is easily visible in charting the improvements in game quality for the beginning of the xbox 360 and PS3's life to the current offerings.

its ability to create ambitious 3D games that have already been achieved on PSP


You seem to think that generating two in-game "camera" views to generate a three dimensional image plus a separate image for another screen is somehow equate-able to the processing power used to generate one in-game "camera" view. Certainly, three dimensional visuals have not been achieved on the PSP. For one, there would be little point considering it does not offer a three-dimensional capable display.

Remember with the wii people kept saying amazing games were just around the corner and that there was unlocked potential waiting to be uncovered. It never happened because it was a gamecube ran 50% faster and was limited by old hardware.


This thread and discussion has nothing to do with the Wii. Many people enjoyed it. The success of it spawned Kinect and Move. However, I offer this as further evidence that you are simply a fanatic engaging in Nintendo bashing.

The 3DS is crippled by a slow gpu and cpu and while the psp is at the end of its life cycle the 3DS has just started its with a comparable specification.


The 3DS performance is in access of the PSP as has been previously established - with facts you claim you already knew. The NGP will be more powerful than the 3DS in terms of processing and two-dimensional graphical potential. Still, the fact that DS won outright over PSP in sales has already documented that portable gaming is not won in the graphics arena alone.

Nintendo haven't pushed the envelope at all so how its meant to fare in the next few years I don't know.


Once again you conveniently leave out the fact that the 3DS hosts the ability to generate three dimensional views and to augment three dimensional views in a three-dimensional representation of your environment via two cameras. It is firmware upgradeable and uses SD card storage. Carries a pedometer that allows physical activity to be translated to in-game benefits. Uses a StreetPass communication system that is open to all developers and many other features.

Nintendo haven't allowed any future proofing at all.


I can only assume by your stance that you equate future-proofing to processing cycles and screen resolution. Any other concept of future-proofing, at any rate, is a mute one. It assumes that the future is in some way predictable and for portable units which are designed to be self-contained this is a different scenario than home entertainment systems. The 3DS is future-proofed for 3DS games and services. It does not have to alter its behaviour for a different screen resolution or output standard. And of course, the ultimate future-proofing is past evidence. People can witness that DS gamers in buying a DS had their games ongoing usability guaranteed future-proofed in the 3DS. Therefore, there is much higher confidence in purchasing a 3DS and 3DS games as Nintendo trends indicate that the 3DS subsequent successor is likely to also offer backwards compatibility.




Edited By: Garie on Apr 19, 2011 23:26: update
1 Like #33
@Garie.

I can not believe you are defending the 3DS to the level you are. Why would you claim the psp is locked to 222mhz, a blatent lie, the speed of the psp varies with the game running. GTA games are clocked at 333mhz as is Monster Hunter. I don't have a full list but when you turn a psp on its at 222mhz but certain games take it to 333mhz. It wouldn't be described as 333mhz if it was never used you must realise that. Also the 3DS speed is 266mhz. Why are you claiming 333mhz?

In a way this is all un-necessary though. You can see as well as me that the 3DS is struggling with dropped frames even at 30fps doing 3D. Many of the 3DS games are technically dated and weak.

Why don't we just deal with the here and now, what the 3DS is achieving today. Maybe there will be some golden dawn where 3DS games will be much better than they currently are but that will be the time to buy the console. Just look at what the 3DS is achieving now before buying.

I'm certainly not misleading anyone, you are the one trying to present an underpowered console as something beyond its known capabilities with the hope it will be better in the future.

Again instead of countering my points you make up false claims and attack me. I resent the fact you claim I'm misleading people. I've been as factual as I can and just wanted to inform people not to believe the hype about the console but take it at face value. Nothing more. If gamers are happy with what the 3DS achieves there isn't a problem. Its where people like you come along and start pretending its some sort of powerhouse and clearly its been costed very low. The parallex barrier screen has huge power requirements compared to normal screens anyway and thats probably one of the main reasons the spec is so low.

I just recommend to people that they don't listen to either of us just try it themselves but make sure they have the ability to return it just in case. Its definitely worth comparing to a psp though to give you some sort of perspective before buying a 3DS. Try something like Ridge Racer which is available on both consoles. I'm struggling to think of similar games after that maybe Tekken or Soul Caliber on psp to compare with street fighter on 3DS. Streetfighter on the 3DS is just about the best game currently for the system so I don't think I'm being unfair there as the psp character models are inferior.
#34
can not believe you are defending the 3DS to the level you are. Why would you claim the psp is locked to 222mhz, a blatent lie, the speed of the psp varies with the game running. GTA games are clocked at 333mhz as is Monster Hunter. I don't have a full list but when you turn a psp on its at 222mhz but certain games take it to 333mhz. It wouldn't be described as 333mhz if it was never used you must realise that. Also the 3DS speed is 266mhz. Why are you claiming 333mhz?


The PSP has a 333MHz processor. However, the original model had a software lock on it to protect battery life. A subsequent battery update in later models was also accompanied by a software unlock for those developers who wished to ignore the common denominator model. A small few titles have taken this opportunity such as GTA (I believe it was the first) however the vast majority develop for the common denominator. The PSP was released far ahead of battery technology allowed at the time and thus the components were initially retrained with locks until the battery issues could be partially resolved. However, if you are an original PSP owner and have not upgraded the battery technology, most of these developers have either a hardware detection to run the game at reduced frame rate and graphical quality or they let it run unchecked causing a massive battery drain and very short run-time.

I am claiming 333MHz minimum for the ARM11 chips. This is because the 266MHz claim that you refer to was taken from an early IGN rumoured specification check list. However, while the actual speed of the 3DS ARM11 processors is not yet disclosed, the company that produces ARM11 states that this processor ranges from 333MHz to 1GHz depending on the model, in other words they do not acknowledge the existence of a slower chipset.

In a way this is all un-necessary though. You can see as well as me that the 3DS is struggling with dropped frames even at 30fps doing 3D. Many of the 3DS games are technically dated and weak.

Why don't we just deal with the here and now, what the 3DS is achieving today. Maybe there will be some golden dawn where 3DS games will be much better than they currently are but that will be the time to buy the console. Just look at what the 3DS is achieving now before buying.


Still harping on about Rayman 3DS even though that question has been answered above. The majority of 3DS games to date are technically dated because they are ports, plain and simple. The games that were designed for the format, such as Pilotwings run at 60 fps with no dropped frames or screen tearing. And links to future games, which once again you have tried to ignore, I placed above showing that the future of the 3DS is looking good.

Every format that has ever launched has launched with technically unchallenging titles and poor ports. It's a fact of the games industry that is well known.

I'm certainly not misleading anyone, you are the one trying to present an underpowered console as something beyond its known capabilities with the hope it will be better in the future.

Again instead of countering my points you make up false claims and attack me.


Nope, presenting the 3DS with facts and again you seem unable to read my countering of your points above. Or maybe that's what you mean by attacking you. In which case it's a no win scenario. Of course, you've failed to counter many of my points.

The 3DS is not underpowered. It's perfectly capable of handling what is thrown at it. Underpowered is a comparative statement and there is no other hardware on the market today trying to achieve the same specification, i.e. portable 3D games and services.

My issue here is not in promoting any one console over another. The status of PSP performance against 3DS performance would require a substantial study. The PSP chip architecture (R4000) was a design initially created in 1991 and you wish to compare it against a recent and modern chip design the ARM11 as being comparable based on cycle speed. This is a gross simplification and highly ignorant stance.

I've made that clear by stating each time that gamers should be deciding on the games they want to play. However, you have been trying to dissuade members of this forum with rumours and erroneous assumptions.

I generally only debate with people who are capable of debating. You on the other hand, in the absence of technical know-how, have continued to claim that someone showing the flaws and errors in your presentation is attacking you.

I have taken the time to direct you towards the fields of study relevant to understanding why your comparison claims are unfounded and your technical knowledge erroneous. Rather than embrace that information you simply return to ignoring the counter claims and whining that anyone who disagrees with you and demonstrates why they disagree with you is somehow attacking you.

From pointing you in the direction of parallelism / pseudo-parallelism theories, multi-threaded development, even artificial intelligence theories you have continually whined instead of approaching such topics with open interest.

I have pointed to the fallacy in basing your estimation of technical performance of graphical detail.

Frankly, I've wasted time trying to direct you to were your errors lie and in insuring that other members can be aware the reasons why your claims are not based on technical fact.

From my perspective I've given you a brief glimpse into the mainstays of computer science, something which people normally pay me for. You are continually acting in an immature manner. At the end of the day, I believe that you've demonstrated your ignorance and fanaticism against Nintendo so other members will now know to dismiss your comments. So some good has come from this.

However, since you cannot accept responsibility for your erroneous claims and will not acknowledge counterpoints that show you why you're wrong. There is no point in continuing in debate with you.

I wish you well and hope that before too many more purchases you realise the world is not as simple as: if number a > number b then number a must be better than number b.

P.S. I've added a like this to your comment so that you don't feel you're being attacked.

Edited By: Garie on Apr 20, 2011 15:43
#35
Rather than comparing specs lets just compare actual graphics and at the moment the 3DS does not look much more powerful than the PSP, but the games make the system as the DS shows.
#36
spursrule777
Rather than comparing specs lets just compare actual graphics and at the moment the 3DS does not look much more powerful than the PSP, but the games make the system as the DS shows.


I think that just basing your choice on games is better. Graphics is still poor for comparison because of the extra workload the 3DS has to achieve over the PSP. Although, it still shouldn't matter even if it were the case because no system is worth a purchase if you don't enjoy the games designed for it.
#37
@Garie

You have to be a troll, no one is soo stupid to say a processor can only run at 333mhz if it has a specification of 333mhz it can be configured to that speed or below and running it slower obviously benefits battery life and less heat. 266mhz is the logical speed anyway from DS to DSi to 3DS, 66mhz, 133mhz, 266mhz all using the same clock frequency chip to give various speeds which is why I'm sure its 266mhz it fits in perfectly with the previous models to scale the process for different compatibility modes. So I think we can safely eliminate your 333mhz theory which you seem to be the exclusive source of. Besides the specification was leaked from a developer and Nintendo have yet to disagree with this information.

Its pretty obvious Nintendo can't do conversions of gamecube and wii titles to 3DS which is why they are doing ancient N64 games. What it can do is give a new graphically gloss to older games but because the cpu power is weak the actually underlying game engines are quite primitive. Its not hard to work out. Nintendo have opted for a game engine that can work well even on a humble DS but they have added improved graphics. Games like Ocarina of time and Rayman show this. Even the virtual console games for 3DS are basic emulations of like gameboy, pc engine and master system games, i.e. emulators that don't require much cpu power. Where are the N64 or even super nintendo or megadrive emulators?

Look you've put your flag in the ground to say the 3DS is a powerful system, much more powerful than PSP. I've put my flag in the ground to say the PSP is practically equal of the 3DS without the 3d. We both have our position. You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you that much is obvious.

Time will tell who is realistic and who is living on fantasy island. Just because I believe both wii and 3DS are underpowered does not make me anti-Nintendo though. I'm not going to pretend these are powerful consoles just because I like Nintendo games.
#38
bonzobanana
@Garie

You have to be a troll, no one is soo stupid to say a processor can only run at 333mhz if it has a specification of 333mhz it can be configured to that speed or below and running it slower obviously benefits battery life and less heat. 266mhz is the logical speed anyway from DS to DSi to 3DS, 66mhz, 133mhz, 266mhz all using the same clock frequency chip to give various speeds which is why I'm sure its 266mhz it fits in perfectly with the previous models to scale the process for different compatibility modes. So I think we can safely eliminate your 333mhz theory which you seem to be the exclusive source of.


I never said it couldn't be locked to run slower (no developer has claimed such a lock). What I said was that the 266MHz claim was a rumour published by IGN and has not been confirmed by anyone. I also pointed out the range of chips produced by ARM11. You stated that the processor was a 266MHz processor. I simply pointed out that according to the manufacturer's site, they do not make any ARM11 processors to run at that speed.

Of course, you claimed that the PSP speed wasn't locked when I had stated that in the original specification it was. So (I'll refrain from the extra use of "o" to stress my so) the only poster who has came close to making such a "stupid" statement has been yourself. Of course, your rapid descent into trying to goad be with increasingly abusive taunts reveals yourself to be a more likely candidate as a troll.

ts pretty obvious Nintendo can't do conversions of gamecube and wii titles to 3DS which is why they are doing ancient N64 games.

Actually, it's not. The product is only just launched and has a small catalogue of games; as is the norm for console releases.

Nintendo have opted for a game engine that can work well even on a humble DS but they have added improved graphics.

A Game Engine is a software product not a hardware product and acts as the library of code for developing games with common functions. Different game companies use different game engines; either in-house or purchased. Unreal Engine is an example of a game engine. Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Games like Ocarina of time and Rayman show this.

Once again you evade discussing Pilotwings and instead point to ports.

Even the virtual console games for 3DS are basic emulations of like gameboy, pc engine and master system games, i.e. emulators that don't require much cpu power. Where are the N64 or even super nintendo or megadrive emulators?


They're on the Wii. The 3DS virtual console is covering portable format emulation. Of course, you do realise that Rayman 3DS is built based on the dreamcast version? Which was far in advance that the N64.

Look you've put your flag in the ground to say the 3DS is a powerful system,

Nope, never said that. I have discussed the architectural differences between the PSP and 3DS. I have made it clear that discussions of performance for comparison are technically complex. The 3DS does perform more simultaneous tasks and the ARM11 processor is a much more modern processor than the R4000 processor

much more powerful than PSP.

I've said that the power is used in a different way for many more simultaneous activities and so on a graphical detail front they may appear similar however the 3DS is actually achieving a greater performance.

I've put my flag in the ground to say the PSP is practically equal of the 3DS without the 3d.

Nope, you claimed that the PSP was the same as the 3DS.
My view is the 3DS is about the same power as PSP


Time will tell who is realistic and who is living on fantasy island.

So you now think you're living on "fantasy island"?

Just because I believe both wii and 3DS are underpowered does not make me anti-Nintendo though. I'm not going to pretend these are powerful consoles just because I like Nintendo games.

As stated before, I don't believe the Wii is relevant which is why I refused last time to discuss it. The Wii by comparison to contemporary competitors with the recent addition of Kinect and Move is now clearly technically inferior and has lost its novelty. Simply, the competitors can perform the same tasks as the Wii to a much higher standard .
The 3DS however can achieve glasses free 3D. Even the computationally higher performance NGP is unable to achieve this. Innovation and improvement should not always relate to graphical detail. At any rate the 3DS is a higher performance product over its competitors as they stand today.

I'm not going to pretend these are powerful consoles just because I like Nintendo games.
A pity you wouldn't apply this philosophy to other formats as well. Also, some recognition that picking up a cheap PSP and cheap games is a foolish investment since the UMD drive is being discontinued for the NGP would be nice instead of trying to convince site members it is an acceptable alternative.

You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you that much is obvious.

Absolutely, working in computer science, I find your comprehension of computer technology is nothing an informed individual would agree with. It's popularised knowledge, simplified and just plain erroneous.

To begin with, I thought you were a fanatic. Now though, I must apologise for this. I've come to realise you simply don't know any better. You actually do believe what you say.

Each time, we've discussed this I pointed you back to the fact that these systems are so complex that there is little simple comparison to make. The PSP was an excellent console for what it attempted to do with a number of design flaws just as the 3DS is an excellent console for what it is attempting, it to has a number of design flaws. You simply want to say one is better than the other. Both are good for their time, design and architectures.

Just pick the console with the games that most appeal. That's the message I've kept coming back to. Now this forum has been overtaken trying to explain to you the flaws in your arguments. I've no intention to continue any further disruption. I'm sure you'll probably want to come back. Your type always does. So I wish you well however I feel to see any point discussing this topic with someone who has their head so firmly set to believe erroneously.

I hope you have great enjoyment with your chosen format for portable games and preoccupy your time with it instead of talking about stuff you do not know.

Goodbye and good life.
#39
Arm don't make any chips you know, they are fabless, they allow other firms to make them or integrate them in SOC chips etc and pay a royalty to Arm. Considering the billions of arm chips out in the world I'm sure you'll find just about every speed imaginable. The company manufacturing the Arm chips actually has more control on the mhz because of the density of their fabrication process. Arm basically create new architectures with improved functionality and the fabrication process dictates how fast they can run. As fabrication densities increase more and more functionality can be added to speed up processes for the same power.

Its very difficult to compare the performance of the psp mips r4000 to the arm11 in the 3DS. I can say the 3DS is about as third as powerful as the wii, thats easy as the 3DS has 1.2 dmips per mhz and so is about 600 dmips, where as the wii is close to 2000 dmips 3x as much. How you make a exact comparison to the psp is another matter. The much more primitive R4000 in the N64 was 125 dmips at about 100mhz but that was the 64bit version and being a desktop console didn't have to worry about power conservation and small amounts of cache. However the psp r4000 is heavily customised and added to with optimised functionality for gaming but is 32bit only but a much later design. If you said 3.3x n64 r4000 and then double it again because of the second R4000 in the psp that would be a ridiculous figure of close to 800 dmips. The dreamcast was about 360 dmips, the gamecube about 1200 dmips. The psp is an expensive design though with extra processors beyond the two mips cores. The 3DS design seems to rely on one of the cores for practically all background tasks. I'm sort of thinking of around 250 dmips for the first core and perhaps something like 150 dmips for the second of the psp. The second R4000 is optimised for decoding/uncompressing and secondary tasks from what I understand. I would guess the psp is just above dreamcast in performance although doesn't have the dreamcast's amazing powervr gpu but with its small screen doesn't need it. I think the 3DS performance is is probably close to 400 dmips in the way its been designed, i.e. whats available for main processing. So really I would say psp, dreamcast and 3ds are about the same performance. However saying that currently the 3ds looks to be the least powerful. The power I'm talking about is cpu power, the power to do game a.i, and complex calculations about the gameworld itself and characters within it. The 3DS gpu is not being criticised although only 133mhz its more than capable of generating graphics for a 400x240 screen twice at 30fps with a slow action screen below.

I'll admit my psp calculations are complete guesses but in the absense of figures anywhere else I think they are reasonable. One other thing the mips processor above the R4000 is about 1.5dmips per mhz so its not unreasonable to predict a figure around 1dmips per mhz that still gives 700 dmips approx with both running at full 333mhz but personally I think the psp is more realistically down in the 400-500 dmips area at best. The DS is about 100 dmips and although that is less than the N64 its still more powerful as the N64 had horrible compromises in its design that stopped it reaching its full potential plus the N64 screen resolution was higher. So the 3DS is certainly a respectable jump in performance from the DS at about 6x cpu performance. The DSi is about 180 dmips so over 3x as fast as that model. You have to factor in the considerable load on the 3DS of the higher screen resolution and 3D graphics though. You only have to look at the games to see that the psp absolutely massacres the DS and DSi enhanced games technically.

I think when you combine all known facts together which are a) Nintendo are a very cost cutting company who like to sell low spec items at high prices, b) the dual arm 11 processors aren't that very powerful and c) the 3DS games aren't very impressive at all. The conclusions are obvious.

Please note I'm not anti-Nintendo I'm just trying to be realistic and thats my motivation to cut through the hype and try to assese the 3DS with the known information about it. I know I'm also negative about the wii technically but I'm not negative about the snes, n64, gamecube or DS all of which are stunning consoles for their time and have given me much entertainment personally.

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