Allowing People To Mislead Potential Buyers – Sort It Out - HotUKDeals
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banned#1
Not often I agree with you OP, but in this case, its as you state... midleading is the nicest way of putting it.

Usually mods allow SOME "off topic" posts in circumstances like this, but maybe a forum helper got a bit excited with their new powers?
banned#2
BTW, that case isn't a gaming case at all - its the case over clockers use on their low-end own-built systems. It's not terrible if its gonna be hidden away, but its not a gaming case in ANY way.

Edited By: vibeone on Feb 15, 2011 11:34
banned#3
this is another one (being a 120gb older slim). Mods didnt care.

http://www.hotukdeals.com/for-sale-trade/fs-playstation-3-slim-console-320gb-hdd/875599
#4
I note he also says "used for 1 month" as though it is a new PC.

Maybe it is new to HIM but it is probably 3 or 4 years old and maybe he bought it second hand.

And I have to say his description of a "Gaming case with red lights" looks somewhat suspect.
#5
As vibeone has pointed out – the case can’t even be classed as “Gaming”, which the OP is clearly advertising it as. It’s simply a bog standard case with some lights, it shouldn’t be given that classification at all.

While i know allot of things with PC are up for interpretation, with the term “Gaming PC” encumbering many different types of specification. I’d imagine for a PC to actually be permitted to be advertised as such, it should be any to play games released in the last 1-2 years, at a reasonable resolution and playable FPS.

It’s such a blatant misrepresentation of the item, it should not be allowed.

Further, as i’ve already pointed out. He’s already shown he is willing to lie about the performance of the PC in games such as Call of Duty: Black Ops, i’d imagine he’d be quite comfortable to continue lying to achieve a sale.

Edited By: spritey on Feb 15, 2011 11:49
banned#6
Jesus man get a life. I'll close the **** thread if it really is that misleading. Don't make judgement on me personally when you have nothing to back it up I have played black ops and it played fine on it, the comp has been professionally overclocked and runs it smoothly. I put all the info in the thread i have hidden nothing from potential buyers and anyone can see what they are buying. Are you saying I overprice the machine?
banned 1 Like #7
TinyStudMuffin
Jesus man get a life. I'll close the **** thread if it really is that misleading. Don't make judgement on me personally when you have nothing to back it up I have played black ops and it played fine on it, the comp has been professionally overclocked and runs it smoothly. I put all the info in the thread i have hidden nothing from potential buyers and anyone can see what they are buying. Are you saying I overprice the machine?


quoted section is a lie.
banned#8
Ok I'm down with this thread ive clearly done something wrong to someone here to deserve this abuse.
I won't respond anymore so please feel free to flame away.
1 Like #9
Very interesting this one. If a 3 year old pc which was sold to me as a "gaming" pc at the time, would it be unreasonable for me to sell it as a gaming pc because the technology had moved on?

The OP may have been able to play black ops on it because I have 8600gt card in my PC and can play most modern games ok at lower res with settings turned down.

It's just down to interpretation whether an old gaming card can still be called one, but I think Op is getting a bit of a hard time
banned#10
OP - Your post in the thread would/should have been allowed to stand. We don't deem points of clarification to be 'thread spoiling'.

We wouldn't permit an active discussion on this within the thread. That didn't happen anyhow, but worth noting for future reference.
#11
Deano467
Very interesting this one. If a 3 year old pc which was sold to me as a "gaming" pc at the time, would it be unreasonable for me to sell it as a gaming pc because the technology had moved on?

The OP may have been able to play black ops on it because I have 8600gt card in my PC and can play most modern games ok at lower res with settings turned down.

It's just down to interpretation whether an old gaming card can still be called one, but I think Op is getting a bit of a hard time


But the seller said that it would be able to handle games made in years to come. I highly doubt that from the Specs listed. It would be clearly misleading to someone who was clueless about computers.
banned#12
aScottishBloke
OP - Your post in the thread would/should have been allowed to stand. We don't deem points of clarification to be 'thread spoiling'.

We wouldn't permit an active discussion on this within the thread. That didn't happen anyhow, but worth noting for future reference.

any comment on the thread I pointed out above where someone sells a headline 320gb ps3 then later on admits its a 120gb? Just wondering......
#13
aScottishBloke
OP - Your post in the thread would/should have been allowed to stand. We don't deem points of clarification to be 'thread spoiling'.We wouldn't permit an active discussion on this within the thread. That didn't happen anyhow, but worth noting for future reference.

Thankyou for the clarification – i don’t think anyone here wants people taken advantage off. Especially when somebody has so flagrantly misrepresented an item they have for sale.


TinyStudMuffin
Ok I'm down with this thread ive clearly done something wrong to someone here to deserve this abuse. I won't respond anymore so please feel free to flame away.

You seem to have taken this quite personally, as shown by somehow trying to create a fuss in one of my own sale threads:

http://www.hotukdeals.com/for-sale-trade/for-sale-nintendo-wii-extras/875690/#post10634355

Thankfully – i don’t mislead people with my listings. Also, thankyou for bumping my thread. Slightly backfired that one didn’t it?

This isn’t about flaming you, attacking you personally or ruining your sale.

This is about the item your listed, which is misleading people who may be interested in purchasing it. It’s also further about you lying that is capable of playing Call of Duty: Black Ops without an issue, when the GFX card struggles to obtain 15fps at a low resolution playing Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. This is backed up by benchmarks and reviews performed on it.

Now, please grow up. Perhaps this is a lesson learned for you, as people on here won’t stand for such deceptive selling tactics.
[helper]#14
Have you any practical suggestion how mods can ensure something is misleading or not? Sure they can attempt to ensure that specifications are factually correct but unless the mods have a specialist knowledge of every single type of object in the world I can't see how the mods can ensure the sales pitches/opinions of sellers are accurate (and then you could argue it was only their opinion against the sellers). I geuss what I'm trying to say is that factual information is easier to confirm than opinions.

Take for example a guitar which was described as a rare sought-after model, this would require specialist knowledge and you wouldn't expect the mods to be experts on guitars, instead it would be up to the buyer to find out more about the item and check what it was worth.

Kinda of think this also applies to computers....




Edited By: gari189 on Feb 15, 2011 13:22: ?
#15
gari189
Have you any practical suggestion how mods can ensure something is misleading or not? Sure they can attempt to ensure that specifications are factually correct but unless the mods have a specialist knowledge of every single type of object in the world I can't see how the mods can ensure the sales pitches/opinions of sellers are accurate (and then you could argue it was only their opinion against the sellers).

Take for example a guitar which was described as a rare sought-after model, this would require specialist knowledge and you wouldn't expect the mods to be experts on guitars, instead it would be up to the buyer to find out more about the item and check what it was worth.

Kinda of think this also applies to computers....




True. I suppose we will just have to hope their is a specialist lurking around for certain topics. However, I know very little about computers but could tell you straight away that the OP of that PC thread was being very misleading.
#16
gari189
Have you any practical suggestion how mods can ensure something is misleading or not? Sure they can attempt to ensure that specifications are factually correct but unless the mods have a specialist knowledge of every single type of object in the world I can't see how the mods can ensure the sales pitches/opinions of sellers are accurate (and then you could argue it was only their opinion against the sellers). Take for example a guitar which was described as a rare sought-after model, this would require specialist knowledge and you wouldn't expect the mods to be experts on guitars, instead it would be up to the buyer to find out more about the item and check what it was worth.Kinda of think this also applies to computers....

I would agree, it’s definitely difficult to moderate.

However, as ASB has pointed out, my initial comments should not have been removed. This thread was created because they had, which i was fine with, providing some form of action was taken to resolve the misrepresentation of the item listed.

My latest comment was allowed to stand on the thread – which i feel is sufficient. Providing we are able to comment reasonably in cases like this, the community is more than capable of highlighting misleading selling tactics.

Edited By: spritey on Feb 15, 2011 13:23
banned#17
Gari,

Usually common sense works well. The mods, and ASB do quote the FS/FT rules a lot, but generally leave comments like those the OP left, because common sense suggests his post 'improved' the thread.

I don't think much needs to be done - just educate the forum helpers (if they were the culprits) on which posts are threadspoiling, and which aren't.
[helper]#18
spritey
My latest comment was allowed to stand on the thread – which i feel is sufficient. Providing we are able to comment reasonably in cases like this, the community is more than capable of highlighting misleading selling tactics.
I understand now - you're basically asking (or clarifying) that such posts are allowed

Not that the mods knew (or would be expected to know) that the description was misleading which was the way I read it :)
#19
gari189
I understand now - you're basically asking (or clarifying) that such posts are allowedNot that the mods knew (or would be expected to know) that the description was misleading which was the way I read it :)

Yeah – would be unreasonable to expect moderators to be the fountain of all knowledge :).

They aren’t going to spot everything, so it’s good we are permitted to comment if it’s relevant to the item and in aid of anyone wishing to purchase or sell.
#20
I agree with most in the thread, the problem comes with the wording being 'subjective' for example 'rare' or 'gaming'. I think it's only right that those in the know could state a price elsewhere to prove something isn't rare or give some specialist knowledge in this case about what constitutes 'gaming'. I would be thankful for spritey's advice if I were looking for something that could play the latest games. I would however ask the question 'Can it play xxx?' which would tell me if it's a gaming PC for my needs
#21
bazzaric
I agree with most in the thread, the problem comes with the wording being 'subjective' for example 'rare' or 'gaming'. I think it's only right that those in the know could state a price elsewhere to prove something isn't rare or give some specialist knowledge in this case about what constitutes 'gaming'. I would be thankful for spritey's advice if I were looking for something that could play the latest games. I would however ask the question 'Can it play xxx?' which would tell me if it's a gaming PC for my needs

Think another major problem was him replying “I can play Black Ops with no issues”

Not sure i’d of raised this further in feedback if he hadn’t of then go onto lie about the performance, which is clearly shown by benchmarks of the card.

It’s a shame somebody uses such tactics. Or perhaps he just enjoys playing games at 5-10fps.

Then again – judging by what he’s doing on my Wii thread – he doesn’t seem like the most trustworthy character.

Edited By: spritey on Feb 15, 2011 15:48
#22
spritey
bazzaric
I agree with most in the thread, the problem comes with the wording being 'subjective' for example 'rare' or 'gaming'. I think it's only right that those in the know could state a price elsewhere to prove something isn't rare or give some specialist knowledge in this case about what constitutes 'gaming'. I would be thankful for spritey's advice if I were looking for something that could play the latest games. I would however ask the question 'Can it play xxx?' which would tell me if it's a gaming PC for my needs


Think another major problem was him replying “I can play Black Ops with no issues”

Not sure i’d of raised this further in feedback if he hadn’t of then go onto lie about the performance, which is clearly shown by benchmarks of the card.

It’s a shame somebody uses such tactics. Or perhaps he just enjoys playing games at 5-10fps.

Then again – judging by what he’s doing on my Wii thread – he doesn’t seem like the most trustworthy character.


I was going to say about that, it's probably worth going back to your Wii thread and either editing it or deleting the posts in response to him. Without knowing the context, you come off rather strange in your response towards him in the first reply, which is quite off-putting for people.
#23
dxx
I was going to say about that, it's probably worth going back to your Wii thread and either editing it or deleting the posts in response to him. Without knowing the context, you come off rather strange in your response towards him in the first reply, which is quite off-putting for people.

He's stated it in here aswell mate - original comments were part of his PC thread.

In my Wii thread he's just trying to cause a fuss i think, seems unlikely that he genuinely wants to purchase it. We shall see!

Edited By: spritey on Feb 15, 2011 17:14
banned#24
spritey
aScottishBloke
OP - Your post in the thread would/should have been allowed to stand. We don't deem points of clarification to be 'thread spoiling'.We wouldn't permit an active discussion on this within the thread. That didn't happen anyhow, but worth noting for future reference.


Thankyou for the clarification – i don’t think anyone here wants people taken advantage off. Especially when somebody has so flagrantly misrepresented an item they have for sale.


TinyStudMuffin
Ok I'm down with this thread ive clearly done something wrong to someone here to deserve this abuse. I won't respond anymore so please feel free to flame away.


You seem to have taken this quite personally, as shown by somehow trying to create a fuss in one of my own sale threads:


http://www.hotukdeals.com/for-sale-trade/for-sale-nintendo-wii-extras/875690/#post10634355


Thankfully – i don’t mislead people with my listings. Also, thankyou for bumping my thread. Slightly backfired that one didn’t it?

This isn’t about flaming you, attacking you personally or ruining your sale.

This is about the item your listed, which is misleading people who may be interested in purchasing it. It’s also further about you lying that is capable of playing Call of Duty: Black Ops without an issue, when the GFX card struggles to obtain 15fps at a low resolution playing Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. This is backed up by benchmarks and reviews performed on it.

Now, please grow up. Perhaps this is a lesson learned for you, as people on here won’t stand for such deceptive selling tactics.


wow, just wow. How come he wasn't banned from trading for that?
#25
surely its upto people to do their own research than rely on someones "sales pitch"

otherwise we should start banning retailers & manufacturers
2 Likes #26
Whilst its certainly not a fast gaming machine or high-end by any stretch of the imagination, some of the OP's comments are pretty unfair. A card which manages 14.6fps in a game at 1,024x768 will likely get close to 25-30 fps at 800x600 in the same game; not a very high resolution, but not far off the native 1024x600 resolution of a lot of Xbox 360 titles. and a perfectly playable framerate. This video seems to back up the sellers too, with a pretty similar spec system.


Edited By: jah128 on Feb 16, 2011 00:39
banned#27
Just to make it clear - I wasn't meaning he be banned from trading for the FS thread he made about the 'gaming pc' but for what he did in the OP's FS thread.
#28
colinsunderland
Just to make it clear - I wasn't meaning he be banned from trading for the FS thread he made about the 'gaming pc' but for what he did in the OP's FS thread.


Yeah thats pretty OoO - but he has been suspended...
#29
colinsunderland
Just to make it clear - I wasn't meaning he be banned from trading for the FS thread he made about the 'gaming pc' but for what he did in the OP's FS thread.


its pretty clear tbf

bit harsh on him being suspended, op spoilt his thread at the end of the day

tit for tat
suspended#30
casparwhite
colinsunderland
Just to make it clear - I wasn't meaning he be banned from trading for the FS thread he made about the 'gaming pc' but for what he did in the OP's FS thread.


its pretty clear tbf

bit harsh on him being suspended, op spoilt his thread at the end of the day

tit for tat


By pointing out that the computer he was selling wasn't anywhere near as good as the OP on the gaming computer thread was saying? Taken from the bottom of that OP:

"Absolutely great PC that will run any game easily and new games for years to come."

That is quite frankly one of the most misleading comments I have ever seen on these fs/ft forums.
All he was doing was letting people know that it wasn't capable of the OP's claims. And then "tinystudmuffin" acts incredibly immature and ruins the thread of a guy that was upfront and honest.

If thats the first instance of that then maybe a suspension is fair, but people like that just ruin things for the rest of us who are just looking for a bargain and who do not want to be misled by "Red Bull can make you fly" type claims.
#31
Deano467
Very interesting this one. If a 3 year old pc which was sold to me as a "gaming" pc at the time, would it be unreasonable for me to sell it as a gaming pc because the technology had moved on?The OP may have been able to play black ops on it because I have 8600gt card in my PC and can play most modern games ok at lower res with settings turned down.It's just down to interpretation whether an old gaming card can still be called one, but I think Op is getting a bit of a hard time
The 8400 was never a gaming card, it is a piece of crap and a fair bit worse than the 8600 which in itself sucks and will stuggle with most current games apart from at a stupid low resolution which no-one in their right mind would chose to use.
#32
OP was initially correct,however got a bit too big for his boots in his Wii thread and had to be taken down a peg or two by ASB...shame as he started off so well
1 Like #33
colinsunderland
wow, just wow. How come he wasn't banned from trading for that?

Confused me aswell, it seems highly unusual that a line hasn’t been drawn for behaviour like this.

As i have said to aScottishBloke privately, he’s a ticking time bomb.

There are generally two types of people who end up ripping somebody off on here, the first are ones who are purposefully out to defraud anybody out of their money. Then second is much harder to spot, normally ending up far messier than the first.

Any two faced dozy plank can trade on here successfully for a while, receive positive feedback and look like a genuine seller. It’s only when faced with situations such as damaged items in transit, inadequately insured items lost during transit or recipient questioning the condition of the listed item in comparison to the description. That a person’s true attitude towards selling goods on here become revealed, as shown many times before, some people feel their obligation after a trade is agreed ends as soon as it leaves their possession.

You’ve got a chap who is willing to mislead and lie regarding an item he’s listed, then acted in a retaliatory manner for somebody highlighting this. Fully aware of the rules and guideline, continues to do so despite warnings.

Somebody like this is expected to act in a mature, responsible and measured way in trades with potentially hundreds of pounds changing hands.

As soon as this guys limits are tested on here, somebody is going to be faced with the incredibley inconvenient task of resolving it. I wish them luck.

jah128
Whilst its certainly not a fast gaming machine or high-end by any stretch of the imagination, some of the OP's comments are pretty unfair. A card which manages 14.6fps in a game at 1,024x768 will likely get close to 25-30 fps at 800x600 in the same game; not a very high resolution, but not far off the native 1024x600 resolution of a lot of Xbox 360 titles. and a perfectly playable framerate. This video seems to back up the sellers too, with a pretty similar spec system.

Actually – within the comments for that video – it says that the frame rate with “FRAPS” turned off is between 17-22fps. This would hardly be considered playable by any review site.

As i’ve said, a “Desktop Gaming PC” should be able to play a games at a reasonable resolution and a playable frame rate. The video shows neither of these.

Furthermore, as pointed out by others, he claimed the PC would play recent and future games without an issue.

If you feel neither of those points constitute a misleading approach to selling the item, there is little more to discuss.

casparwhite
its pretty clear tbfbit harsh on him being suspended, op spoilt his thread at the end of the daytit for tat

I highlighted the misleading and false statements made in relation to the performance of the sellers PC, in order to aid potential buyers in making a more informed decision and not to end up paying for item with raised expectations.

As aScottishBloke has highlighted – this is permitted and perfectly reasonable.

boothy
OP was initially correct,however got a bit too big for his boots in his Wii thread and had to be taken down a peg or two by ASB...shame as he started off so well

He was:

- Aware of the rules
- Warned by a moderator
- Continue to proceed despite warnings
- Warned by myself
- Continued to proceed despite warnings

Additionally – even more aware of the possible consequences when somebody failed to pay for an item over a long period of time – to which he enquired what action could be taken and replied to by aScottishBloke here:

http://www.hotukdeals.com/feedback/negative-feedback/869671

Yet continued to proceed...

I simply put my faith into moderators such as aScottishBloke to take more appropriate action if he did indeed do what most suspected he would, which he did. Unfortunately, this did not occur, flagrantly ignoring rules, moderator warnings and possible consequences of his actions. This can only been seen as a poor reflection on aScottishBloke himself.

Edited By: spritey on Feb 16, 2011 10:23: .
[mod]#34
Do we know how old the OP of that thread is? Could explain a few things.

We assume he is an adult but there are a lot of 'kids' that are frequently using the FS/FT as well.
#35
Good summary, spritey.

I was just a bit confused by your closing statement:

spritey
Unfortunately, this did not occur, flatulently ignoring rules, moderator warnings and possible consequences of his actions. This can only been seen as a poor reflection on aScottishBloke himself.

Do you mean he was blowing raspberries? Or blatently ignoring rules? :)

Seriously, though, may it be a suggestion to appoint "helpers" in the "For Sale / Trade" forum area in the future based on specific product/subject knowledge? Not making it their primary remit, but allowing a modicum of experience to be able to challenge listings where inaccurate claims about performance/specifications are made.

Alternatively, a “Dislike” this comment option could be implemented for other members to show their disapproval to claims of this nature.

BFN,

fp.
#36
fanpages
Good summary, spritey.I was just a bit confused by your closing statement:

Haha :)

God damn spell check auto-correct.

Perhaps if he farted on me he would of gotten his trading privileges revoked.
banned#37
Spritey,

The listing quite clearly highlights the specs, yet so much focus is put on the closing line within the OP.

Whilst we don't condone creative advertising, it's fair that a member was able to offer clarification/alternative opinion, and after a minor hiccup, that's the course of action that followed.


Absolutely great PC that will run any game easily and new games for years to come.


You were permitted a counter claim, therefore I'm not sure what further purpose this thread is serving as you are taking a personal matter into Feedback.

Finally, what's worse?

A thread which accurately states the specification, but includes a tag line which requires correction, or a member who on numerous occasions has performed in a selfish manner by frequently over bumping their threads to the detriment of other sellers who agree to abide by the rules.
#38
It isn't creative advertising, it is flat out BS lying.
[mod] 1 Like #39
Shouldn't this be locked now that the original seller is suspended and has no right of reply?
1 Like #40
aScottishBloke
Spritey,The listing quite clearly highlights the specs, yet so much focus is put on the closing line within the OP.Whilst we don't condone creative advertising, it's fair that a member was able to offer clarification/alternative opinion, and after a minor hiccup, that's the course of action that followed

You were permitted a counter claim, therefore I'm not sure what further purpose this thread is serving as you are taking a personal matter into Feedback..

While highlighting the specification – Graphics card numbering is a complex business, especially when it involves Nvidia. It’s a major and quite serious annoyance among enthusiasts that Nvidia numbering system is so unclear, often felt by some that it is used to mislead buyers.

While focus was put on his statement / opinion of performance, this is perhaps the most important part of information the seller could convey to a potential buyer with little knowledge of computers.

While this isn’t a problem if highlighted, things tend to further deteriorate when the seller stands behind that claim and lies about performance once again in relation to a particular game.

As i have clearly stated in this thread, my comment directing people to this thread, being permitted to stand, was sufficient to save any unknowing member being caught out by the deceptive nature of his selling tactics.

This is no way a personal matter, the conversation has simply extended into a related subject due to the actions and immaturity of the seller.

aScottishBloke
Finally, what's worse?A thread which accurately states the specification, but includes a tag line which requires correction, or a member who on numerous occasions has performed in a selfish manner by frequently over bumping their threads to the detriment of other sellers who agree to abide by the rules.

Let’s actually make this slightly more clear – since you’ve obviously left quite substantial chunks out to somehow bring my actions into question.

I had a Nintendo Wii for sale on this forum.

TinyStudMuffin (Wait a minute while i vomit into my own mouth at his choice of username) – decided to jump onto this, using the rules laid out by HotUkDeals in order to waste my time and cause aggravation. Such as requesting pictures and evidence to support my description, with no intention of purchasing the item. I obliged.

You warned TinyStudMuffin (I can taste the carrots) that his actions were out of line and to desist, which he did not. At no point did you stop him from continuing to abuse the forum rules, despite your original warning.

I continued in line with the forum rules, hoping, but also suspecting it was just some windup, that he would at least he held accountant for these actions. That his intension were clear and this kind of behaviour would not be tolerated, resulting in his trading privileges being revoked so he was unable to repeat or cause further issues in other trades.

I was also fully prepared to follow through with the sale as agreed, providing my details to the member and personally privately messaging you. Enquiring that if i was to take photographic evidence and video footage of the consoles condition and function, that i would be covered if he was to damage the item on purpose on its arrival. You never replied – thanks.

Once it became evident that his intensions were to indeed waste my time – he received a suspension.

While you may consider this appropriate action to take under the circumstances, i do not. As already stated and PM’d to yourself – you’ll be the only one to blame when his immature and disrespectful behaviour affects another member in the future, possibly resulting in the considerable loss of money and time.

If my intension was purely to bump my thread, there are far more invented ways to do so. Rather than wasting my time sourcing a replacement receipt and agreeing the sale.. Such as subtle questions:

“How do you want to make payment, i can only accept bank transfer? Please confirm before we agree a sale.”

“How quick would you like delivery, as i can only post in “x” amount of days. Are you comfortable with this?”

The list goes on...

Edited By: spritey on Feb 16, 2011 11:53: .

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