For Sale forum and scams - HotUKDeals
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banned#1
absolutley terrible, i have seen two scammers on their tonight (gut feeling, not been wrong yet) and there is naff all you can do except post your concerns, but the last few days they have been so obvious yet people are still parting with their cash
#2
(post already disappeared on this subject tonight *ahem*).

Member of a few forums around the internet, and alot do have minimum post rules before posting in For Sale/Wanted Boards. I think it would be a good thing.
#3
@ highguyuk - there is no conspiracy here - a duplicate post was removed.
#4
I believe ya - many wouldn't ;-)
(Can't believe you spelt my name wrong though! How rude!)
#5
Thats why my post was pulled :) Cause someone started this thread....LOL

Anyway, totally agree with the OP here. Was just pointing out to highguyuk (although he thinks I am over-reacting!) about the difference in the for sale / trade forum since the change to the site. For me it does not seem as moderated (im sure Emma and Edi will tell me different now) and there just seems to be less control than there was.

I was saying that hardly anyone puts up piccies any more. Personally I think that this should be compulsory, and maybe after a day or so if there are no piccies a mod should delete the thread. Would just give a small sense of security to those who are buying or interested in doing so.

Its not as nice in there as it used to be and thats a shame for all involved. :(
#6
I have noticed a increased number of scams over the last few days,its getting pretty bad on there at the minute.


A mod did ask for pictures to be posted in a For Sale thread the other day, and was widely condemned.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
#7
I do think pictures should be allowed to posted in the first thread as they are in any other thread - but maybe a restriction with how these forums work nowadays.

Maybe the deals/freebies/vouchers button and the misc/feedback/for sale submit buttons should be different somehow?
#8
A mod did ask for pictures to be posted in a For Sale thread the other day, and was widely condemned.


And if the OP refused then the mod should have deleted the thread. Simple. I know it does not guarantee anything, but at least it would sift out some of the scammers and make people more comfortable with buying and selling.
banned#9
Pictures prove nothing except to show they have the item, not that your gonna get it and the saint is just trying to prove a point, a bad one at that, the member he is referring was a little pissed off that a mod had asked him to post a pic, nobody else got asked just him, and he wasnt even a new member, scroll through the last few pages to see who else has been asked to post pics:roll:
#10
Pictures prove nothing except to show they have the item,


I know that Sassie, but I, as a buyer, are more likely to buy from someone that is willing to post a picture than I am from someone who isn't.

Surely, as a seller, it makes sense to post a picture though? I can't see why you would not want to do that. More to the point, why would you get annoyed that a mod has asked you to? Maybe its me? Dunno.

Nothing you can do will guarantee that a seller has the items they claim they have or that you will get what you pay for, although things like pictures, feedback (dont get me started on that - still cannot leave feedback for more than one item in a post - absolutely stupid that.) others testimonies, ebay feedback (if any), posts on here etc are ALL better to have than nothing at all.

yet it still seems that even with the warnings and other stuff, people are willing to part with money just on a few lines of text and because of this the potential scam fest will continue and grow IMHO.

And then there was the thread the other day when someone posted in someones sales thread that the seller was a scammer (and then made no attempt to back up the claim). I mean, what was all that about? LOL
#11
Simon_G
And if the OP refused then the mod should have deleted the thread. Simple. I know it does not guarantee anything, but at least it would sift out some of the scammers and make people more comfortable with buying and selling.


Not everyone has the equipment to post pictures, and even if they do, they may not know how to do it. I only learnt a week or two ago (advance search 'mrssaint'). :)
banned#12
Simon_G

yet it still seems that even with the warnings and other stuff, people are willing to part with money just on a few lines of text and because of this the potential scam fest will continue and grow IMHO.



and to be honest that is all you can do, is warn, but people usually just post without reading half the threads anyway
#13
Admin,would it be possible to implement a 50 post rule in the FS forum before things start to get out of hand on there?
banned#14
boothy
Admin,would it be possible to implement a 50 post rule in the FS forum?


50 posts to rip someone off is nothing to a scammer, why cant members just be careful, read all threads, the warnings are there for most, some are so obvious its unbelievable, i do think members have to take some responsibilties for their actions, alot of us got scammed big time on a hot deal, yes the warnings where there, and some of us weighed up the odds and took our chances, what could admin have done to stop that? as much as he can do to stop scamming on the for sale boards i think, theres still one on there now ready to take someone for a ride, but you cant go round throwing accusations with no proof
#15
boothy
Admin,would it be possible to implement a 50 post rule in the FS forum before things start to get out of hand on there?


Probably best to PM admin if you want an answer as he doesn't read every post.

I will say that 50 posts can be done in an hour or two, so hardly any deterrent. :)
#16
the only problem is anyone can easy rack up 50 posts so you end up with 2 problems, 1 spam the other scam..

At least with no minimum post required you can spot someone easy enough with 1 post and more caution should be used.. should be used anyway but...

there was a thread other day. psp for £50.. cause offers flying in like no tomorrow as cheap. next minute people dealing via pm. then you see 2 yes2 people say they have been told they can have it. now if your not hearing alarm bells by now your mad.. and guess what..people were mad and still paid the money,, and it turned out to be another scammer.. if people are trying to be clever and greedy and deal via pm, not follow rules or advice like getting LANDLINE numbes etc there will always be scammers.. cant put it all down to the system..
#17
I am not criticising the site at all far from it...

Just speaking from my experience from other forums,at least you can see what the other person has been posting and if its all rubbish then alarm bells should start ringing.

Other alternative would be that they have to be a member for 3 months or something.

I totally agree that its up to the individual to use their sense and judgement,however some people aren't quite a savvy as some,but in the end if people keep getting scammed then it will reflect badly on the site in a whole
banned#18
boothy
Just speaking from my experience from other forums,at least you can see what the other person has been posting and if its all rubbish then alarm bells should start ringing.

ermmm i dont wish to sound rude, theres no bigger alarm bells tha a new member, selling goods for stuoid money,, the only stupidness is the members thinking they have ripped off the scammer:roll:

Other alternative would be that they have to be a member for 3 months or something.

sign up, leave for three months, come back when you finished scamming on any of the other 100's of forums

[COLOR="Orange"]I totally agree that its up to the individual to use their sense and judgement[/COLOR],however some people aren't quite a savvy as some,but in the end if people keep getting scammed then it will reflect badly on the site in a whole


this is the only way scammers will stop bothering, my main concern is why such an influx on here, something aint right:?
#19
sassie
this is the only way scammers will stop bothering, my main concern is why such an influx on here, something aint right:?


Agreed a determined scammer will always find a way,no system would be foolproof,just the hit and run merchants may be deterred.

Was wondering why its gone bad on there all of a sudden myself
#20
boothy
Just speaking from my experience from other forums,at least you can see what the other person has been posting and if its all rubbish then alarm bells should start ringing.


The forum search is so poor with regards to "Find posts by user" now that searching previous posts is an exercise in futility.

boothy

Other alternative would be that they have to be a member for 3 months or something.


Easily bypassed as well, set up account, and then come back in 3 months.

boothy


I totally agree that its up to the individual to use their sense and judgement,however some people aren't quite a savvy as some,but in the end if people keep getting scammed then it will reflect badly on the site in a whole


There's enough rules that are there on top of every deal in that forum in red letters, if people choose to not follow them then more fool them.
banned#21
boothy
Agreed a determined scammer will always find a way,no system would be foolproof,just the hit and run merchants may be deterred.

Was wondering why its gone bad on there all of a sudden myself


something definatley doesnt feel right, something going on somewhere hukd dont know about, or maybe a disgruntled member:?
[admin]#22
If you guys spot anything odd in fs/ft in terms of influx of scammers that appear to be related etc please let us know so we can see if something can be done.

On the whole - the fs/ft is a difficult thing. We put it there so members can trade with each other which is hopefully a good thing however lots of new members are signing up just to trade on there. Also, I think what we are seeing lately is that many members/lurkers have just now found the fs/ft exists as the site change made it more accessible. This has led to loads of newbies posting in there without realising what they are getting into.

The problem from a management perspective is that we cannot prevent fraud from happening. No matter what we do it is going to happen. So I think the important thing is that the community is smart and responsible enough to trade with a minimum of risk and those who don't care about risk please don't ask us to hold your hand.

I also think that rather than posts being a factor people should pay more attention to the feedback left and who is leaving that feedback. Members who have been trading a long time and have a lot of feedback should be able to set the rules on a transaction to minimise their risk. A newbie coming in then would only trade with established traders and take all the risk themselves...after they've proved themselves then they could do the same. There's ways to work that too but it's more difficult.

Anyway the basic point is be careful be cautious take the steps we recommend and minimise risk as much as possible. If the risk is too high then don't use it.
banned#23
I think pictures prove nothing. Any picture can be taken from an ebay item so i dont really see the point unless its photographed next to todays paper or similar.
#24
Admin
If you guys spot anything odd in fs/ft in terms of influx of scammers that appear to be related etc please let us know so we can see if something can be done.

On the whole - the fs/ft is a difficult thing. We put it there so members can trade with each other which is hopefully a good thing however lots of new members are signing up just to trade on there. Also, I think what we are seeing lately is that many members/lurkers have just now found the fs/ft exists as the site change made it more accessible. This has led to loads of newbies posting in there without realising what they are getting into.

The problem from a management perspective is that we cannot prevent fraud from happening. No matter what we do it is going to happen. So I think the important thing is that the community is smart and responsible enough to trade with a minimum of risk and those who don't care about risk please don't ask us to hold your hand.

I also think that rather than posts being a factor people should pay more attention to the feedback left and who is leaving that feedback. Members who have been trading a long time and have a lot of feedback should be able to set the rules on a transaction to minimise their risk. A newbie coming in then would only trade with established traders and take all the risk themselves...after they've proved themselves then they could do the same. There's ways to work that too but it's more difficult.

Anyway the basic point is be careful be cautious take the steps we recommend and minimise risk as much as possible. If the risk is too high then don't use it.


But by effectively removing some simple safeguards like the traders-to-avoid list you have made matters worse. Can't understand how these members were considered a risk before the site change yet are now allowed to freely trade on the forums. :?
banned#25
jah128
But by effectively removing some simple safeguards like the traders-to-avoid list you have made matters worse. Can't understand how these members were considered a risk before the site change yet are now allowed to freely trade on the forums. :?


they where trading before the site change, like i said before it really wasnt up to much, but never the less you ban them and they come under a new name so the bans etc,etc, dont really stop it anyway, it just looks like somethings being done, if you get me drift
#26
I sort of agree, but it does removing one line of policing. For example, jr129389 is trading again (possibly better known as jase159 to some members) and at least before one could say 'watch out, person on traders to avoid list' to warn potential buyers. And as for high post count, rockatin has plenty and high rep yet was noted in the old list as a trader-to-avoid. Just don't think the feedback-only system is as effective as a feedback+traders-to-avoid system.
#27
Just want to point out that i have probably sold over 50 items on here and bought just as many, none of which have had any real problems and so class myself as a pretty decent and honest trader. However as people can only put one item of feedback per thread (and my sales threads like amy others usually have multiple items in them) I am currently sitting at a whopping 14 positive. Not a true representation of me as a trader on here is it?

Can I make a suggestion please? Can we have a forum dedicated to feedback but one which is a thread per user. So for example, it would take the form of a normal forum (not the feedback forum as it stands now) and my thread would be titled simon_g which is my username (everyone would have a thread with their username in it) Within this thread people could post their experiences with me as both a buyer and seller without the need to link to the particular thread in which the item was bought and therefore allowing as many people to leave feedback as they want.

Again another idea stolen from a forum i go to (and trade) on which works very well and could work well in here too. The only problem is that it would have to be moderated so that only feedback was left....pooh! another job for the mods so probably wont happen :(
#28
Simon_G
Can I make a suggestion please? Can we have a forum dedicated to feedback but one which is a thread per user. So for example, it would take the form of a normal forum (not the feedback forum as it stands now) and my thread would be titled simon_g which is my username (everyone would have a thread with their username in it) Within this thread people could post their experiences with me as both a buyer and seller without the need to link to the particular thread in which the item was bought and therefore allowing as many people to leave feedback as they want.


We have user feedback and it's listed in every FS/FT post in the OP. :)

csiman
I think pictures prove nothing. Any picture can be taken from an ebay item so i dont really see the point unless its photographed next to todays paper or similar.


ebay pictures have a watermark on...
banned#29
duckmagicuk2;1474264

ebay pictures have a watermark on...


Since when? I just copied the following image from an ebay auction. Where is the watermark?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181/dekeweild/92ef_1.jpg
#30
csiman
Since when? I just copied the following image from an ebay auction. Where is the watermark?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181/dekeweild/92ef_1.jpg


Behind the "ft" in Ubisoft in the bottom right-hand corner. :oops:
banned#31
thesaint;1474444
Behind the "ft" in Ubisoft in the bottom right-hand corner. :oops:

easy enough to take off then by cropping picture :whistling:
#32
We have user feedback and it's listed in every FS/FT post in the OP.


Yes but you failed to read what I had wrote. If you had you would not have posted that.

My point was that the current feedback method is flawed and unfair on the seller especially when it comes to multiple items.

easy enough to take off then by cropping picture


Why is why making the seller provide a picture that has their username in it with the word hotukdeals and the date on a piece of paper next to the goods will make sure that all pictures are at least of the items for sale and that the picture has been taken directly for the sale on this site.

Anyway, thats all a little too much really. Other forums have control of their fs/ft forums without half the issues this place does and with even less moderation than here. Cant see why this site would be any different, but it obviously is.
#33
csiman
easy enough to take off then by cropping picture :whistling:


Yes, but some people (no names) do not even know it's there. :)
I have seen people get caught out selling things on this forum by this method.
#34
Admin
The problem from a management perspective is that we cannot prevent fraud from happening. No matter what we do it is going to happen. So I think the important thing is that the community is smart and responsible enough to trade with a minimum of risk and those who don't care about risk please don't ask us to hold your hand.


Hi Admin, one of the things that IMHO has made a big change to the FS/Trading forum is the lack of visible management.

Before the site change at the end of last year, a Mod would post the guidelines in each thread and would correct any posting errors that weren't already picked up by regulars, such as asking the seller to state a price, or include a picture, etc.

Whilst this in itself didn't directly stop any fraudsters, it did give the impression that the site was being overseen and managed, and that was enough I would imagine to disuade people from trying it on.

Since the site change, there has been very little input from the Mods on that forum. I do not know if this is coincidence or a deliberate policy change on behalf of you and your team? Either way, rightly or wrongly, it gives the impression that the forum is no longer being monitored or policed, and I don't think it is any surprise that since this change, we have seen a vast increase in scammers and first time posters selling off their Wii's, etc.

I realise that constantly monitoring the forum and posting in each thread is a lot of work for the Mods, and I am very appreciative of your efforts. However, teh atmosphere on the forum has changed for the worse since these changes took place, and I think unless something changes, the FS/FT forum is going to soon get to the point where it is out of hand and you will hvae no choice but to close it, which would be a shame for all.
#35
What he said :)
banned#36
there should be strict rules, there should also be all rules that need to be ticked before you can place an ad, each time for every add placed, any ad that breaks the rules should be removed straight away, no need for any contact, if a member cant be bothered to read the rules why should mods waste their time in informing them, or maybe an utomatic pm sent telling them to rad the rules before trying to place again, dont think anybody reads the rules unless they have been ripped off and boy they sure read them fast enough then.

That board is an absolute disgrace at the moment and will continue to only get worse
#37
Sassie, I can see what you are saying, really I can. As a buyer and seller on here, like you, it disturbs me to see the changes that have happened here recently.

Like nightswimmer, I really think that the mods have to step in and either take control it or get rid of it. Other forums have trading threads yet none of the issues this site has. You have to ask yourself why. Their rules are no different to the rules here, the possibility of others joining and scamming are no different (and yes it does happen in other forums, just not as prolific as it would seem on this site and when it does, boy is it dealt with) and in most cases pictures and additional information is not needed or even requested before a trade is made. So if they can do it why cant this site?

The FS forum does seem like an afterthought on here, and as much as Admin may want to think they have no legal obligation in relation to what is bought and sold on their site, surely they have a moral obligation to their members to make sure that the experience is as gratifying and safe as possible? Just as the site went through a change (for better or worse) I think the FS forum needs to either have the same attention spent on it, or to get rid of it totally (along with what i am sure is a headache for Admin and the mods).
banned#38
Simon_G
Sassie, I can see what you are saying, really I can. As a buyer and seller on here, like you, it disturbs me to see the changes that have happened here recently.

Like nightswimmer, I really think that the mods have to step in and either take control it or get rid of it. Other forums have trading threads yet none of the issues this site has. You have to ask yourself why. Their rules are no different to the rules here, the possibility of others joining and scamming are no different (and yes it does happen in other forums, just not as prolific as it would seem on this site and when it does, boy is it dealt with) and in most cases pictures and additional information is not needed or even requested before a trade is made. So if they can do it why cant this site?

The FS forum does seem like an afterthought on here, and as much as Admin may want to think they have no legal obligation in relation to what is bought and sold on their site, surely they have a moral obligation to their members to make sure that the experience is as gratifying and safe as possible? Just as the site went through a change (for better or worse) I think the FS forum needs to either have the same attention spent on it, or to get rid of it totally (along with what i am sure is a headache for Admin and the mods).


Totally agree with all you have said
#39
Simon_G
Sassie, I can see what you are saying, really I can. As a buyer and seller on here, like you, it disturbs me to see the changes that have happened here recently.

Like nightswimmer, I really think that the mods have to step in and either take control it or get rid of it. Other forums have trading threads yet none of the issues this site has. You have to ask yourself why. Their rules are no different to the rules here, the possibility of others joining and scamming are no different (and yes it does happen in other forums, just not as prolific as it would seem on this site and when it does, boy is it dealt with) and in most cases pictures and additional information is not needed or even requested before a trade is made. So if they can do it why cant this site?

The FS forum does seem like an afterthought on here, and as much as Admin may want to think they have no legal obligation in relation to what is bought and sold on their site, surely they have a moral obligation to their members to make sure that the experience is as gratifying and safe as possible? Just as the site went through a change (for better or worse) I think the FS forum needs to either have the same attention spent on it, or to get rid of it totally (along with what i am sure is a headache for Admin and the mods).



Well said Simon,The FS board is giving the entire site a bad name at the moment no question about it,I just hope it's not too late to do something about it
[admin]#40
I would love to solve greed in the human race unfortunately it doesn't look possible. As long as people ignore common sense, expect others to babysit them, put the blame elsewhere they will get ripped off.

There's feedback and there's warnings all over. If people actually used the feedback and warnings the scammers would have a tough time. We're here to build tools but we can't hold people's hands for them. As long as people think that we are here as some kind of internet police force to back them up if something goes sour they are going to have problems. It needs to be clear that you and only you are responsible for using your noggin when making a trade. As an example, if you bought something from your local paper classifieds, didn't test it on site, paid the guy his money, got home and found out it was broken would you go to the paper demanding they resolve the issue?

Here's a solution to newbies having problems in fs/ft. Only trade with someone with over 30 feedback and a known reputation on the boards. Problem solved. Think they will listen?

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