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#1
Well, I've never used the for sale forum before, but would like to start. I don't think I have any rep? but would hate to think that I wouldn't be able to use it if I wanted to.
[admin]#2
bazzaric as a long standing member I appreciate your feedback and perspective. We have been talking about various feedback we have been getting lately and want to put in a dedicated mod to enforce rules in that forum (whether you think that will help or not I guess is another discussion).
#3
Using rep and a high post count shouln't count towards whether you can sell or buy an item.

I agree with what you are saying regards scams and fakes etc, but this question has been raised several times without anyone really knowing how to solve the problem.

Only answer is to close it but that would be a huge shame to the honest ones amongst us.
#4
I've followed the 'rules' in a recent transaction and still been stung. They cover everything, but unfortunately there's always the risk. No Mod could have helped my particular situation, but a better policing needs to be done with regards to newish members. This would obviously be solved by implementing a post threshold for the for sale section
#5
just another quick point, perhaps a 'reporting' time limit should be removed or lestened, you can only report 1 person every 60 seconds, what's all that about :-D
#6
Dont think a post count would help!!
A high post count can be achieved in 1 day, just by answering peoples posts with something
as simple as "I agree". If you count number of posts then you have to start to take "quality" of posts into account.

just my 2$ worth!!
#7
Hmm.. As a relative newbie, I have purchased two things from the For Sale Forum and found both sales smooth.

I think people are getting somewhat distracted. There is nothing that HUKD can do to eradicate the scammers, they will always be there. The best we can hope for is for the risk to be minimised.

Post count isnt a good idea as people will spam to get level or simply not use it.
Likewise Rep isnt the best way forward.

Even IF HUKD could do some kind of verifications check on the seller we would still get scammers as people dont care even if you know there real name etc... They know the Police/PayPal are not intrested.

Really the only method that I believe can work in substantially reducing the risk is that HUKD acts as a middle-man and takes the payment and recived the item.
Both the item and payment is sent on when HUKD has both.
This however would result in some extra charges, shipping, paypal fees etc.. and would also slow the process down to a huge extent and based on these reasons I wouldn't use it and for that reaon don't think its feasible.

Sadly whenever you buy/sell something with someone either in person or via the internet a element of trust and sense is involved people will always find a way to scam you.
If your not prepared to risk losing the money/item then the answer is not to buy something from a unlicensed seller
#8
an authorised access only forum for private sales...minimum post count to get in. On application to get in, your previous posts are checked along with the information you provide at time of application....then you can't spam to get your posts up because they would be checked. This would be quite an easy process, and would eventually provide a for sale section with 'registered and recognised' members.
#9
Admin
bazzaric as a long standing member I appreciate your feedback and perspective. We have been talking about various feedback we have been getting lately and want to put in a dedicated mod to enforce rules in that forum (whether you think that will help or not I guess is another discussion).


A dedicated Mod to enforce the rules would be good but not if they just become a lonely abused soul wandering from one problem to another.
That may read a bit melodramatic but could easily happen.

The person that moderates FS/FT would need to have a set of rules that they are easily able to enforce and the power to stamp out offenders instantly.
It's a well known fact that the more complicated the rules are the more refined the scammers will become.

I've made my views clear on the FS/FT Forum many times before, as have others, and the situation has only got progressively worse. It really is doing HUKD no good at all and my personal view is it should be suspended until there is a basic set of enforcable rules together with a way to verify all sellers before they obtain the right to offer items for sale..

That's possibly a tall order but I'm not sure anything less would only prolong the agony as it were !
#10
rangermastiffs

just my 2$ worth!!


Cheapskate... :whistling:

I reckon that the FS/FT forum should have its own website! Like the Amazon deals on here, there is no mention of HUKD on there. Can the same be done for the FS/FT forum? That way HUKD won't get a bad name from all the scams taking place. Also, it can have its own mods who are prepared to do the work with out affecting HUKD at all....

The other option is to scrap it completely....if you wanna sell your stuff, go elsewhere...its safer!

Just my 2million$ worth! :p
#11
Personally, I feel new members should be prevented from the FS boards. This should be via a min. post rule, of approx 20-50 posts. Just a small number, to see how it goes and if it ends up that the site is SPAMmed by new members it can be reviewed. Rep should be left as a reward for a good post. It would be relatively easy for new members to gain rep via unauthorised methods, and this would devalue what the rep system means on the site.

I think "trades" should be banned. It should For Sale or Wanted. Trades cause issues with who posts first, or if 2 ppl agree to post at the same time and one forgets etc. It also removes the ability to "post a price" is a glamourous "offers" basically.

I also think "I have £2.96 in my Paypal account" type posts should also now be banned. The success rate of these is very low, with the OP rejecting most offers because they are vague and not anything that the OP would like - it's people trying to get rid of there junk!

My £2 worth ... (I'm more expensive)
#12
Admin
We have been talking about various feedback we have been getting lately and want to put in a dedicated mod to enforce rules in that forum (whether you think that will help or not I guess is another discussion).


Good news regards the dedicated mod, the forum seems so busy at the moment it might need more than one! :) Still think you should reconsider bringing back an up to date, detailed bad traders list, and you should be less forgiving on those who have a history of bad trades and breaking rules.
#13
highguyuk
Personally, I feel new members should be prevented from the FS boards. This should be via a min. post rule, of approx 20-50 posts. Just a small number, to see how it goes and if it ends up that the site is SPAMmed by new members it can be reviewed. Rep should be left as a reward for a good post. It would be relatively easy for new members to gain rep via unauthorised methods, and this would devalue what the rep system means on the site.

I think "trades" should be banned. It should For Sale or Wanted. Trades cause issues with who posts first, or if 2 ppl agree to post at the same time and one forgets etc. It also removes the ability to "post a price" is a glamourous "offers" basically.

I also think "I have £2.96 in my Paypal account" type posts should also now be banned. The success rate of these is very low, with the OP rejecting most offers because they are vague and not anything that the OP would like - it's people trying to get rid of there junk!

My £2 worth ... (I'm more expensive)


I think if a mod is to be assigned to the For Sale section, then they should quickly check previous posts by the member and there definately should be no one under say 50-100 posts allowed to sell.

And for your £2 worth, I have some old videos I can sell you?
#14
Yes, that's a good point - a bad traders list should be reposted. If it can't be a sticky, maybe a link from the FS rules link?

The reason I say 20-50 is because I think it should be a trial. There is a valid point, which I'm sure admin/mods have discussed, that a post count restriction does lead to extra SPAM on the boards at times. Even if the new members only have 19 posts and it's 20 for the limit that 1 post might be completely pointless. Some say most of the misc section is already completely pointless ... :)

(I don't have a Video Player, and this isn't the FS board! tut tut)
[admin]#15
Personally I would not be so worried about a post count min leading to spam but just simply that it would give an appearance of meaning something when it truth it means pretty much nothing about whether you can trust someone in a trade.

I honestly think that if every newbie trader only traded with the top traders any problems would be massively minimised. The tools to do that are there already.
#16
So, is a dedicate mod to the section going to be the only thing that is implemented into the FS section?

Like the list of bugs and site fixes, if we know what is going to happen it makes it alot easier! And we can sit back, and see if the mod has an effect. :)
#17
i would be uset if there was alimit thAT I DIDNT REACH.
i am honest i want to buy not sell. maybe instead of rep or post count you could do something about member time
stop people joining and selling. make it a month before you can sell. but you can still buy.
#18
Then people just sign up, wait a month, and start posting scam deals ...
#19
The only way any of these ideas would work is with a Mod being able to police the forum. Hopefully we will get something in place soon, and poor JB can stop having to be the bad cop!
#20
I am a newbie and am fairly new to the FS/FT section.
One idea could be with a Mod (would need 2 if it is to be modded 24hrs) could be that all posts of items for sale from members without any positive feedback for selling are modded before they appear in the forum. if the moderator is in doubt about the post then he could directly as the 'seller' for further verification, if this wasnt then supplied then then the thread would simply be disallowed.

Gimme time to put on my blindfold before facing the firing squad :?
#21
Hmmm. Alot of mod time would be required, but that sounds like quite a good idea. This would have to be as well as other measures though - and although people have feedback it doesn't stop them missing items such as pictures.

There is also the negative that just because a mod has checked the post, it doesn't mean the seller is legitimate and the sale will go through with no problems. This is something people may imply after the post has been checked.
banned#22
i dont think there is ever gonna be a sure way forward to stop the scammers, i believ that it has become a little rough of late due to no front page,, like already said, so now being more open.

One measure would be a template that has to be filled in with a price, picture, location etc,etc, if one field is not filled n then it will not allow you to post, maybe forum rules at the bottom of every template with a tick box to say it has been read, again if not ticked no post. Just two ideas, plenty more but last time i think they where mentioned i think the team felt soemthing no strict wasnt needed, maybe as things get worse minds may be changed:thumbsup:
#23
highguyuk
although people have feedback it doesn't stop them missing items such as pictures.


It was more aimed at getting rid of the more major things. a sale shouldnt go through until the buyer has seen a Photo of the item anyway, without excuse from the seller. if he cant provide a photo then the item should be withdrawn from sale. nowadays there are more than one way to take an image of an item:
Mobile phone,
digital camera,
webcam,
it is highly unlikely that any seller will have no access to at least one of these methods so a simple "my camera is broken at the moment" cannot and should not be taken as an excuse.
i know that even having an pic of the item doesnt stop a scam. so it should be put into the rules that a trade MUSTN'T be completed until a pic has been viewed. it is the buyers responsibility to exercise that rule and if the seller refuses then the buyer MUST report the seller if the item without continuing the deal and that MUST be stated to the seller.


highguyuk
There is also the negative that just because a mod has checked the post, it doesn't mean the seller is legitimate and the sale will go through with no problems. This is something people may imply after the post has been checked.


it would need to be indicated that this is simply just an added form of verification and NOT simply the SOLE means of verification and that the buyer is ultimately responsible. it would just simply help to weed out the more problematic members and just help to alleviate the problem to a certain degree.
a disclaimer would need to be put in the rules that HUK accepts no responsibilty for any trades/sales at any time (may already be there, honestly cant remember) even if the thread has been 'Modded'
#24
sassie
i dont think there is ever gonna be a sure way forward to stop the scammers, i believ that it has become a little rough of late due to no front page,, like already said, so now being more open.

One measure would be a template that has to be filled in with a price, picture, location etc,etc, if one field is not filled n then it will not allow you to post, maybe forum rules at the bottom of every template with a tick box to say it has been read, again if not ticked no post. Just two ideas, plenty more but last time i think they where mentioned i think the team felt soemthing no strict wasnt needed, maybe as things get worse minds may be changed:thumbsup:


Good post. :)

Although I don't think a template of the type sassie advocates would be any reason to stop a scammer what it would do is create some sort of uniformity.
This has various benefits, one being that the post would be easily checkable for rule breaks or non conformity as sassie implies and therefore easier to moderate.

Verification of some description is another good way to disuade the impulse scammer although this might be a step too far in respect of site resources. I'm not sure either whether this would have legal implications for HUKD.

Somewhere along the line there has to be a balance and at present this balance seems to be weighed in favour of the scammers.
#25
Should be mentioned thats its not just scammers, I'm fairly sure there is an increase in people breaking rules such as being traders, listing elsewhere, not listing price and excessive bumping etc.
#26
Admin
We have been talking about various feedback we have been getting lately and want to put in a dedicated mod to enforce rules in that forum (whether you think that will help or not I guess is another discussion).


Thank you! This is really good to hear. :)
#27
bazzaric
I've followed the 'rules' in a recent transaction and still been stung.


That's interesting, when you say you followed the "Rules" does this include the "guidelines", I have doubted that anyone would be scammed if they followed all the guidelines, and you are the 1st to come forward and say they have been scammed despite doing this (If you are indeed saying you followed the guidelines as well).
#28
Admin
We have been talking about various feedback we have been getting lately and want to put in a dedicated mod to enforce rules in that forum


I don't think that this would be fair to the mod in question, it is a thankless task and would be demoralising to be always be faced with spending your day cleaning up.
I liken it to being a traffic warden i.e they are needed, but not welcome.

If it is implemented, maybe they could rotate?

when something goes wrong, the same members who haven't followed the guidelines will still complain, but will target a mod who was supposed to be there, but wasn't at the time.

Buyer beware should be the 1st and last line of defence.
#29
thesaint
That's interesting, when you say you followed the "Rules" does this include the "guidelines", I have doubted that anyone would be scammed if they followed all the guidelines, and you are the 1st to come forward and say they have been scammed despite doing this (If you are indeed saying you followed the guidelines as well).


Glad you find it interesting thesaint... I have an address...landline number checked, photo with name, two confirmed addresses, mobile number confirmed, feedback checked...

And yeah, I sill got scammed. The person responsible is a few hundred miles away so for the moment will hold on to my pennies...
#30
my thoughts .....
you are able to see ppl feedback,rep and post count, also you are can view the sort of things in ppl 's post/threads - therefore you can decide for yourself to trade with the person (or not)
really I don't see it any diff from ebay but no charges - buying and selling over net is always going to be abit risky - take it or leave it I say
#31
By using a "template" supplied by HUKD or by the mod having the job (being responsable) of checking potential sales then the "LIABILITY" starts to lean towards the forum owners, and I do not think this is what is intended by allowing this forum space.
We have to take the responsability ourselves and decide whether to "deal or no deal"

I think thats 4$ worth now:p
#32
sassie

One measure would be a template that has to be filled in with a price, picture, location etc,etc, if one field is not filled n then it will not allow you to post, maybe forum rules at the bottom of every template with a tick box to say it has been read, again if not ticked no post. Just two ideas, plenty more but last time i think they where mentioned i think the team felt soemthing no strict wasnt needed, maybe as things get worse minds may be changed:thumbsup:


Suprise, suprise!

This was discussed 3 months ago...:whistling:

HERE see post #13
#33
bazzaric
Glad you find it interesting thesaint... I have an address...landline number checked, photo with name, two confirmed addresses, mobile number confirmed, feedback checked...

And yeah, I sill got scammed. The person responsible is a few hundred miles away so for the moment will hold on to my pennies...


Did you also do the paypal check(paid + received), and PM a mod/admin with the details and the mod/admin confirmed that you were both submitting the same information.
banned#34
hottoshop
Good post. :)

Although I don't think a template of the type sassie advocates would be any reason to stop a scammer what it would do is create some sort of uniformity.
This has various benefits, one being that the post would be easily checkable for rule breaks or non conformity as sassie implies and therefore easier to moderate.

Verification of some description is another good way to disuade the impulse scammer although this might be a step too far in respect of site resources. I'm not sure either whether this would have legal implications for HUKD.

Somewhere along the line there has to be a balance and at present this balance seems to be weighed in favour of the scammers.



The problems in the for sale board are not just purely scammers, there is continual breaking of rules, ie, bumping, pm'ing, now i see bumping and eletion of the bump so its a secret bump (so to speak) so often now, this takes up time from both members reporting and also mods sorting, i do think there should be some kind of template as already mentioned, may help the siuation, lets face it some of the threads posted, miss pricing out, miss pictures, miss location for pick up, is this done by mistake? or done for keeping the thread at the top, continual abuse of this board is helping no-one and maybe with this in mind it is also encouraging the scammers when they see continual abuse happening
#35
sassie
The problems in the for sale board are not just purely scammers, there is continual breaking of rules, ie, bumping, pm'ing, now i see bumping and eletion of the bump so its a secret bump (so to speak) so often now, this takes up time from both members reporting and also mods sorting, i do think there should be some kind of template as already mentioned, may help the siuation, lets face it some of the threads posted, miss pricing out, miss pictures, miss location for pick up, is this done by mistake? or done for keeping the thread at the top, continual abuse of this board is helping no-one and maybe with this in mind it is also encouraging the scammers when they see continual abuse happening


yeah ?
I think that's what I was writing wasn't it ? I agree with you in the main. :thumbsup:
#36
I have just read the thread in question.

It does seem to be a genuine seller, but i'm no scam buster so will leave others to make their own minds up.


What I will say is that the seller stated that he(assumption) will not use paypal, as he has been scammed by someone using it before.

After recently getting scammed on paypal, I am no longer putting my trust in it, and advise you all to do the same. As such, payment by cheque, postal order or bank transfer only.


and strictly NO paypal.



He then has a change of heart, and despite being a newbie on HUKD and knowing no one, paypal is now his friend.

Willing to accept paypal now,



The thing where it starts to get suspicious is when he says he has no feedback on ebay, possible, but hard to believe.

only have feedback from other forums, none from ebay and the like
.

He states many times throughout the thread that the things listed will be going on ebay soon if they are not purchased by a certain time-frame. He seems to know a lot about the auction types for someone who has no feedback on ebay.


Admin, can you please close this on the 21/01/2008 as I'll be listing on ebay if these bits are not sold.



Everything still up for sale. At midnight, everything will be listed on ebay as a 1 day listing. So today really is the last day this lot will be for sale here. I don't want offers, I don't want dibs, dabs and sherbert dobs, I need the car fixed ASAP,


I'm not going to accept any offer below what I'm asking. and in 4 hours, everything that hasn't sold will be on ebay. If you want the item number after this thread has been closed,


This rushes buyers into rushing with their offers as they know the clock is ticking.
Why the buyers don't ask for his ebay id, I have no idea.

I wonder if this guideline was followed:

(2) Outside of this you can use the poster's eBay feedback to establish some kind of trust level. If you do so make sure you contact the user through eBay to make sure the account they state as theirs is indeed theirs.


:thinking:

The OP then makes an offer, the seller replies

Paypal would mean I could get it posted tomorrow, bank transfer as soon as the funds are in the account. (Are you paypal verified?)


The OP replies:

yeah, I will pay via a verified account. The decision is yours!


We don't know how the payment was made because the next thing we see is this:


bazzaric, have PM'd you.


So we don't know about this guideline being followed:

4 Make a small payment to and from each other to validate the PayPal e-mail address.


About a week into the thread someone else actually decides to ask about feedback, the seller doesn't actually give a link to other sites that he claims he has feedback on, but his feedback on HUKD. :?

At no point does this get questioned because the clock is ticking of course.

I also don't see anyone suggesting to PM a mod to exchange details as per this guideline:

Please be advised, all buyers and sellers should satisfy themselves that either party is genuine by providing and verifying the following via PM to each other and to Admin or a Moderator if they wish to keep a record:


In conclusion, I think this question by me:

That's interesting, when you say you followed the "Rules" does this include the "guidelines", I have doubted that anyone would be scammed if they followed all the guidelines,


Needs to be answered categorically.
#37
Thesaint, I appreciate you taking the time to look through the thread. I nearly have my money back, so at the moment I don't want to discuss anything further.

It's safe to say however that
a)I didn't follow the rules to the letter, but went further in to finding out who the person was
b)have photographic evidence beyond dispute which I used to satisfy myself all about the seller.


If you have any more need to discuss this further, feel free to 'pm' me.
#38
You have answered my question:

a)I didn't follow the rules to the letter
#39
thesaint
You have answered my question:


bet your glad eh :thumbsup:
#40
Got shot down in flames for asking a seller to provide a proper picture (not a stock one) and some external feedback as they had none here. Did have to laugh at that.

Fortunately MikeBeaver and Sassie came to my rescue after i had been ridiculed b the seller, but if new members are allowed to sell with that kind of attitude no wonder they are taking people for a ride.

I don't know what the answer is, but something has to be done to stop new members from pretty much doing what they want to do, for everyones sake. Im doing what I can to get info and pictures us (as others dont seem to be bothered by it) but dont want to get banned for "spoiling" or whatever, just want to do my bit to help.

I've been done for £400 on an ebay sale a few years ago so I know how it feels to be duped.

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