New Usergroup (Suspended) & feedback on its usage in "for sale" forum - HotUKDeals
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#1
cant find anyone with suspended under their name :?
#2
emasu;1800695
cant find anyone with suspended under their name :?


It has only just been put in place in the last hour or two... so you might not see anyone yet.
#3
emmajk42;1800714
It has only just been put in place in the last hour or two... so you might not see anyone yet.


Ahh.... OK :thumbsup:
#4
emasu;1800719
Ahh.... OK :thumbsup:


Actually, here's my test account.
#5
So for a first offence we would send a warning infraction and if the rules are breached again it would be an instant ban.

We are thinking of doing this across the board, one warning then ban no matter which forum an infraction is given.

Feedback and suggestions [as long as they're nice :)] gratefully accepted.
#6
emmajk42;1800723
Actually, here's my test account.


is emajk42 one of yours aswell?
#7
emasu;1800737
is emajk42 one of yours aswell?


Nope, it's a banned multi ID, with "BEING A BITCH" in the bio. Nice.
#8
emmajk42;1800744
Nope, it's a banned multi ID, with "BEING A BITCH" in the bio. Nice.


lol OK :p

Anyway.. back on topic...
#9
To many people are getting banned on the fs/ft forum for honest mistakes or not knowing the rules properly maybe just a quick warning would be enough you can use your discretion on more serious issues.
#10
waterloo;1800760
To many people are getting banned on the fs/ft forum for honest mistakes or not knowing the rules properly maybe just a quick warning would be enough you can use your discretion on more serious issues.


But waterloo, these bans are clearly written into the rules. I feel no-one bothers to read them sometimes.
banned#11
I dont how to put this without an immediate sassie getting at the mods result, it isnt it is just my opinion ok

I think it is the discretion that winds members up, you say we dont see what goes on behind the boards and by allowing this discretion is seen as favourtism amongst some, im not saying that is how it is im just sayng how it comes across when mods see the rules differently and mods use their own discretion in the result, does that make sense
#12
The thing is, we're all different too and we try to act on what we see as fair using our own judgement in combination with the rules. That's why we have discretion and a decision can be turned around once we've all had a chat about one of those decisions made if others aren't around.
banned#13
rayman
The thing is, we're all different too and we try to act on what we see as fair using our own judgement in combination with the rules. That's why we have discretion and a decision can be turned around once we've all had a chat about one of those decisions made if others aren't around.


i understand that, but say fr instance, you dont allow duplicate threads, once locked or expired then no relist, we then see newbies being banned for it, and oldies allowed to do it, that is just one example, you know the rest, how do you think members are feeling, gonna react, you think it sounds fair?
#14
We really want to keep this on the topic of feedback for how we use the infraction system across the board

edit: to warn and then ban, no instant ban until a warning has been sent.
[admin]#15
I think there will always be disagreement about rules and discretion is required. To be honest this is how the entire legal system works. I don't know if you have ever looked at the legal statutes in the UK or EU law but you couldn't find a more insanely detailed body of rules with exceptions and sub-exceptions on and on and on.

Yet even with these incredibly detailed rules we have an entire court system because no matter how detailed these rules are there is always ambiguity when applying them to a situation. A judge makes decisions based on the rules, the situation and apply their discretion to the situation.

If it was possible to make rules or law that never required discretion then there would be no need for courts or lawyers or judges. I think the clarity you ask for does not exist sassie.

Edit: And yes as rayman says can we please keep this thread on topic for discussing the issue at hand.
#16
emmajk42
But waterloo, these bans are clearly written into the rules. I feel no-one bothers to read them sometimes.

I think around 70% of sellers do not bother to read the rules you are correct but i often see a newbie getting a straight ban for a honest mistake like a bump or posting again before 7 days are up now for this type of offence you should be given a warning.
[admin]#17
Thanks for the feedback waterloo - that's what we are looking for with emma's post.
#18
When you click submit, could the rules not appear up and have something like "i have fully read the rules" tick box at the bottom but you have to scroll to get to it?

to make sure they read it, and if not bare the consequences?
#19
i agree with waterloo. i think a warning first then a ban. plus liek the suspended instead of banned, as lets face it most people see banned as scammer.
#20
I dont know if you are thinking about a warning and leaving the sale post open but i think give the warning and lock the thread as some people will take a warning just for a sale.
#21
I'm one of those who hasn't read all the rules yet!
Just like I rarely read T&C's when purchasing things ... they can be so long winded sometimes!
#22
waterloo;1800883
I dont know if you are thinking about a warning and leaving the sale post open but i think give the warning and lock the thread as some people will take a warning just for a sale.

Yes we would still do those things.
#23
Sounds good, i though mods wernt interested after getting 0 replies. lol
#24
rayman
So for a first offence we would send a warning infraction and if the rules are breached again it would be an instant ban.

We are thinking of doing this across the board, one warning then ban no matter which forum an infraction is given.

Feedback and suggestions [as long as they're nice :)] gratefully accepted.


I would not like to see warnings/infractions being carried across the board. I don't have a reasoned argument for it, but I think that the "For Sale/Tade" forum should be in isolation to the others.


emmajk42
But waterloo, these bans are clearly written into the rules. I feel no-one bothers to read them sometimes.


Not many read them, but as suggested earlier, isn't it possible to have a 'tick box' that is inside another box with the rules?

I can't explain it well, but some sites have a 'tick box' that is within the rules that have to be physically scrolled past to get to the 'Tick box' that says "I accept...", this way whilst they still may not read them, you would at least know that they have seen them.

This way, nothing would have to change with how you police the forum.
I don't see any less complaining and banning happening by simply highering the threshold by 1.


Over the past few months, we have been giving an instant 1 day ban for a primary breach of the rules there.


Do you mean "primary" as in "first"? Or do you mean "Minor"?

Members who breach the rules aren't always banned.

Some offences warrant an instant ban, by giving them a warning makes no sense.
The members that are banned for a 'Minor' offence, are probably harsh, but is something we should live with, a 24 hour ban isn't life threatening.
#25
Yeah, by primary I meant first.
#26
I am an oldie and a complete novice to computers, i don't understand a lot of what gets talked on here.
Most people seem to be experts or at least understand the lingo, which i do not.
I wouldn't know if i was doing something wrong so would it be right if i was banned?
I think a lot of people who are like me are being put off selling anything on here, you only have to look at what is being sold, i.e. computer games, to know that it is the younger members who are trading.
Make the rules simple and easier to understand and you may get less banning and more people prepared to sell stuff here.
I personally would not try to sell anything here at the moment, but i come here to look for bargains anyway. [not to sell on].
#27
rayman
So for a first offence we would send a warning infraction and if the rules are breached again it would be an instant ban.

We are thinking of doing this across the board, one warning then ban no matter which forum an infraction is given.

Feedback and suggestions [as long as they're nice :)] gratefully accepted.


Personally i agree with Saint in that I think the FS/FT forum should be policed separately/differently to the rest of the forums.

With regard the FS/FT forum I would be quite happy to receive and see others get an instant ban for not following the rules there AS LONG AS the rule that has been broken is clear and concise and there are no grey areas involved. Where there are grey areas possibly a yellow card would suffice.

To be honest I don't know why the rules for the FS/FT forum and the penalties for breaking those rules are not able to be automatically printed on the OP (or FS/FT template) so that there is no excuse for not having read them.

The FS/FT forum needs to be policed as much as possible with a "Zero Tolerance" attitude otherwise it will never get sorted. I don't know why this "discretion" thing that sassie has a bee in her bonnet about is considered off topic because it's obviously not. I agree with her sentiments mainly as it does aggravate the situation.
If the rules and the penalties are absolutely clear there will be very little need for discretion although as Admin quite rightly says it will always be there.

With regards the other forums I think a lot of the humour has been lost from HUKD because people are a little worried about crossing the line. Obviously I don't know what direction Admin wants these forums to take but if they are to be kept as a friendly adult community with the present code of conduct then perhaps a informal warning via PM should be given on first offences. 2nd offences could be yellow carded with a warning that any subsequent same breach of conduct would result in a ban of some length and possibly a permanent ban.

Just my opinion :)
#28
Just found a suspended member and this comment from JB

Edit: As this is not first offence, suspension is now for 3 days.


So why go from 1 day ban for a mistake to a 3 day suspension? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. I thought the idea of a suspension was a sort of warning, a time for reflection and to read the rules properly :?
banned#29
Shengis
Just found a suspended member and this comment from JB



So why go from 1 day ban for a mistake to a 3 day suspension? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. I thought the idea of a suspension was a sort of warning, a time for reflection and to read the rules properly :?


they have only chnged toe wording, gone from ban to suspension, and added the extra day or two in their two, probably incase anyone mentioned pinkkitties three day ban
[admin]#30
sassie your jump to conclusions mat is in the post.

Shengis: "As this is not first offence"
banned#31
Admin
sassie your jump to conclusions mat is in the post.

Shengis: "As this is not first offence"


admin this was already stated, so would imagine shengis already knew that, so what conclusion have i jumped to that aint right:roll:
#32
Whoops, i've got a blind spot for the word not :oops:
banned#33
Shengis
Whoops, i've got a blind spot for the word not :oops:


do you think thats the conclusion admin think i jumped to :giggle::giggle:


P.s Best do me grovelling now, sorry admin, but you have just changed the word banned to suspended, and added the 3 day one in
#34
:lol:

Sassie, it's probably because we're the same, don't like taking NO for an answer so the censor filters it for us:p
#35
Noticed that suspended had started to be used, but only now just seen this thread. It's a good step in the right direction, that I believe stemmed from these feedback boards. It would be nice to know what else is in the pipelines that has been suggested in the feedback board.

I think it should be a warning first, then a 1 day ban etc. However, if it is a major breach of the rules then a 1 day ban should be implemented straight away. This leads itself open to the "discretion" again. Someones major could be anothers minorish. :)

At the end of the day, alot of the problems are occuring because members aren't reading the rules - not because they are actively trying to break them. A solution to make members read the rules before selling should be looked into. Perhaps a tick box before a members first sale with a full list of the rules? Perhaps its time the rules we re-written and defined?
[admin]#36
sassie can you please just take the time to read the OP? And then read this again: "As this is not first offence"
#37
hottoshop

With regard the FS/FT forum I would be quite happy to receive and see others get an instant ban for not following the rules there AS LONG AS the rule that has been broken is clear and concise and there are no grey areas involved. Where there are grey areas possibly a yellow card would suffice.


I think I can talk from expeience as I use this site a fair bit both for deal searching and posting and trading and recently had a ban. So heres my two pence worth:

Rightly so all forums are open to both non-members and members alike.
It seems a lot of users of this site at any given time are guests and one of the best things we could do to move this place forward is to convert this into signed up members, who post deals which we can all benefit from (& HUKD's) can earn its slice from.
Add their experiences to threads and participate in FS/FT threads.
Thereby increasing the deals and trades for everyone.

However there are noticeable posts from people that dont want to list their items for sale as they think its too complicated here and they will end up with a ban, or people are not sure if a deal is acceptable as its not from a major company or contains adult material.

This isn't a positive as we are not excluding scammers, or unwanted info here we are simply excluding people who are unsure on the rules and worried of a ban.

The FS/FT board seems to be the main banning area and this is a issue.
I have seen people not post prices for sale items even though they are regular traders for days and still have thier thread open whereas others make a innocent mistake and get banned.
Distguishing the two is difficult and therefore a warning system would be better.

My personal experience - Posting a Deal:

The first deal I posted I asked for rep and heat if it was good and recieved a infraction.
If I make a similar error I would fully expect to be banned as JB pointed out what I did was wrong.

My personal experience - FS Listing

I had a PSP Pandora Kit for sale which lots of HUKD users expressed a interest in.

A deal was agreed with a member for £22 but there was another 5/6 members that wanted to use the kit on a one off basis (including buyer).
I asked if people would be interested in taking the kit and paying for it to be posted on to the next person and making a small paypal donation to me (£3) so I could re-coup my inital outleigh of £20 and cover my 1st postage charge.

I PM'd Col and asked if this was all ok - rather than speak to me, he banned me and deleted the thread.

Result In the 1st instance a minor infraction is issued which should only go against me if I commit similar offences.

In the 2nd instance the buyer didnt have a clue what had happened and didnt get a kit, noone else benefited and for 24 hours I could view the site and still take advantage of all the deals but not post anybody or help anybody.
Also afting PM'ing the appropriate mod and asking them for help the last thing you expect is a ban

Its annoyed me because I like to post good deals etc, but as a result then ban achieved nothing other than to stop me contibuting.

In summary

I dont think we need to have 1 day bans for lesser offences. These should get a warning/yellow card.

For a 2nd breach when the correct rule has been pointed out it should either be a week a month or a lifetime ban
banned#38
Admin
sassie can you please just take the time to read the OP? And then read this again: "As this is not first offence"


i have read the op, when it was first posted, you have changed the word banned to suspended:?
you have now added a three day suspension where as before it was 1 day or 1 week, which bit am i not supposed to be gettting:?
#39
sassie
you have now added a three day suspension where as before it was 1 day or 1 week


I'm slightly confused now. Where does it say that in the OP, sassie? We decided that the jump from one day to one week was slightly harsh, so the bans are now:

One day, three days, five days, two weeks, one month.

The one day ban hasn't been "removed" at all.

As for the OP, it's asking if we should continue with the one day bans for the 1st offence or make it:

Warning, one day, three days, five days, two weeks, one month.
banned#40
duckmagicuk2
I'm slightly confused now. Where does it say that in the OP, sassie? We decided that the jump from one day to one week was slightly harsh, so the bans are now:

One day, three days, five days, two weeks, one month.

The one day ban hasn't been "removed" at all.

As for the OP, it's asking if we should continue with the one day bans for the 1st offence or make it:

Warning, one day, three days, five days, two weeks, one month.


Not half as confused as me, where have i said one day ban has been removed, i said you had added a three day one, not removed any, i purely said you had changed the name of the ban to suspended, is this not right:? If not i wish youde make up your mind, is it suspension or ban

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