The struggle for power on HUKD and why 'hate' should be actively discouraged - HotUKDeals
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banned#1
Liddle...why cant you just stop trying to cause rows?

"I hope this vile scum suffers a painful and slow death. Hanging is too good for him" was about Gary Glitter and other Paedophiles....

Spammed:thumbsup:
#2
Btw, of course I'd like to hear a variety of opinions on this issue, but to prevent the thread turning into an argument with those who don't accept it's purpose (which is explained clearly I think in the OP), I will not repond persoanlly to anyone who attempts to claim I'm trying to cause trouble. I'm not trying to do so and I hope people can accept that. Thanks.
#3
If you think the OP is clear then you are mistaken. It seems you are (once again) merging different topics, presumably there is a underlying issue you are trying to hint at but if you want a discussion or feedback best just pick one thing at a time.
[helper]#4
Liddle - can I just clarify which point you are trying to make? is it
- the struggle between members expressing their views and the mods trying to moderate?
- expressions of "hate" should not be allowed on HDUK?

If it is the latter - you have spoken up in the past for the right of people to express their views on HDUK - the example you quote was very strongly worded but it was still someone's opinion. If you disagree with that opinion then the best way to respond is with reasoned arguments why it is not a "solution".
#5
gari189;2783463
Liddle - can I just clarify which point you are trying to make? is it
- the struggle between members expressing their views and the mods trying to moderate?
- expressions of "hate" should not be allowed on HDUK?


Or to add to gari's list are you really trying to talk about members attacking mod's decisions or 'subversive tactics and gang mentalities'... Thats sort of 4 or 5 different issues at once - clear it certainly isn't!
1 Like #6
The simple answer (unless you're a dedicated troll :whistling:) is that if you don't like something then just ignore it.

HUKD is a mixed community - similar to the society in which we live - and the chat side reflects this. There is the option on the home page to view deals only and, if you find yourself taking some of the chat too seriously, then perhaps you should stick to the deals?
#7
Yes, I am all for freedom of speech. But there is a line to be drawn. Obviously the principle of free speech can comes with caveats, as reflected in the laws of this country actually. I subscribe to the view that we should protect freedom of speech as a principle but ban inciteful and/or what I'm calling 'hate' language etc. Hmm... I agree it's a difficult one, certainly not a 'black and white' issue, and I accept that my stance may be seen as somewhat confused (or even hypocritcal if someone wanted to ignore my intent). It is confused and I don't profess to have the answers. But I think I've gone some way to explaining my stance and rationale for addressing the questions at least.
#8
tony_s1
The simple answer is that if you don't like something then just ignore it. HUKD is a mixed community - similar to the society in which we live - and the chat side reflects this. There is the option on the home page to view deals only and, if you find yourself taking some of the chat too seriously, then perhaps you should stick to the deals?


tony_s1
HUKD is a mixed community - similar to the society in which we live - and the chat side reflects this. There is the option on the home page to view deals only and, if you find yourself taking some of the chat too seriously, then perhaps you should stick to the deals?


Yes, I agree it is the simple answer. I've been considering this too. But part of the dilemma is that I feel issues like this should be tackled rather than ignored. I've had a couple of pms and other messages from people who have said the same thing, saying they were shocked and saddened by the majority view presented on that thread. One person said "I lose a little faith in humanity every time I read [these things]" (anon.) and that hit the nail on the head for me. As much as I want to ignore the comments - and perhaps it's better that I do - I am upset by them and feel they derserve my considered response. I could take the so-called high-minded approach and say to myself "let them wallow in their own dirt", but I respect people too much to take that approach (and I dislike the attidues of people who take it). As I said in the post, I care about these things. I'm an educator by profession (if you can call it that), and I don't find it easy to turn off or ignore what I see as damaging discourse.
[helper]#9
Thing is liddle some of us aren't sure which issue it is you want to raise and which one would you like to tackle first?
#10
gari189
Thing is liddle some of us aren't sure which issue it is you want to raise? which one would you like to tackle first?


erm ... well, if you see more than one issue, then my answer is that I've obviously already raised them. :?
[helper]#11
Liddle ol' me
erm ... well, if you see more than one issue, then my answer is that I've obviously already raised them. :?

I really wanted to contribute to this (the issues you have raised are valid) but you're just going round in circles. By combining several different issues in one thread you make it difficult to give a reasoned, considered response and will make the thread difficult to follow as members won't know which issue is currently being addressed.....
#12
gari189;2783746
I really wanted to contribute to this (the issues you have raised are valid) but you're just going round in circles. By combining several different issues in one thread you make it difficult to give a reasoned, considered response and will make the thread difficult to follow as members won't know which issue is currently being addressed.....


Absolutely agreed. I'm still really unclear as to what questions you are asking (or points you are making), particularly with the third paragraph, and this is the feedback forum - if you combine lots into one post it removes any chance of clear/concise discussion of site issues!

If this is the question you are asking:
"Do you not feel that if this kind of language is not controlled, that it will soon get out of control? Or should this just fall under the principle of 'free speech' and be allowable?"

My personal opinion would be yes, it probably should, given the context of the statement you suggested, but by all means you should respond with objection if you feel fit. I can see also why the site would be happier doing away altogether with all such debate (particularly on such emotive subjects as paedophiles). 'Free speech' doesn't apply here, although many members mistakenly seem to think it does, this is a privately owned deal site which happens to have a 'misc' forum where a small minority of members discuss non-deal related things.

But what point(s) are you trying to make with the third paragraph/title of the thread? How does "when members try to grab control of the site by attacking mod decisions and using subversive tactics to bring in a 'gang' mentality" relate to the above question - and what question/point are you trying to ask here?
#13
gari189
I really wanted to contribute to this (the issues you have raised are valid) but you're just going round in circles.....


jah128
Absolutely agreed.


Ok, well since you both seem to confused about what issues you think I am raising (or rather, you think I am confused :)), then I'll let my words speak for themselves and let you get on with bringing whatever positive contribution you can to it. If you can make reason out of my confusion, I'd appreciate it. :thumbsup: If you are sincere in your claims, then you'll do this. I feel that responding to each of your various points at this stage will be futile and actually will end up going in circles and detract from the issues. If you are still confused and think it's not worth the bother to untangle my thoughts, then maybe stand aside and let others have a word or two, as I'm now going to do. :thumbsup:
#14
Surely anything that seeks to foster hate in any community (be it real or virtual) ought to be discouraged. We have to be careful though. Freedom of speech is important, therefore we should be allowed to speak / write about what we think or feel on issues. It is through dialogue that greater understanding of each others positions can be achieved, otherwise we are truly narrow-minded bigots who only want our views aired and accepted.
I do not believe stating that a child abuser is evil and should be punished is "hate" but an emotional response to an abhorant person. If we start arguements with each other because we disagree on an issue, and degrade ourselves by using foul and hurtful words, then I would consider that to be hate.
I might not be the most PC person, but regardless of why I disagree or object to another person's lifestyle or worldview, I aim at dignity. Those who stoop to slander have lost their arguement at the outset.
1 Like #15
Liddle ol' me;2783812
If you can make reason out of my confusion, I'd appreciate it. :thumbsup: If you are sincere in your claims, then you'll do this. I feel that responding to each of your various points at this stage will be futile and actually will end up going in circles and detract from the issues. If you are still confused and think it's not worth the bother to untangle my thoughts, then maybe stand aside and let others have a word or two, as I'm now going to do. :thumbsup:


Thats a pretty rude response IMO. It was a fairly simple question - what do you mean the 'struggle of power on HUKD' and how does that relate to the kind of language used in the the Gary Glitter thread (to me they seem complete isolated issues and the 'struggle for power' I am genuinely unsure what you are talking about) - but it seems you are unwilling to answer this fairly simple point.

If you are not prepared to answer simple questions/elaborate what you mean I can't understand your motives in starting this thread in the first place?
#16
jah128
Thats a pretty rude response IMO. It was a fairly simple question - what do you mean the 'struggle of power on HUKD' and how does that relate to the kind of language used in the the Gary Glitter thread (to me they seem complete isolated issues and the 'struggle for power' I am genuinely unsure what you are talking about) - but it seems you are unwilling to answer this fairly simple point.

If you are not prepared to answer simple questions/elaborate what you mean I can't understand your motives in starting this thread in the first place?


Sorry, not meaning to be rude at all jahl128 - and I will answer all questions later - and tbh, I didn't read thru your entire post, just gari's and the beginning of yours. But ok, the 'struggle for power' is a reference to all the 'the mods are wrong to delete this!' threads and that kind of thing. Also, the snide references to the same issues in multiple posts. You know the type I'm sure - 'the mods have favourites (or 'bitches' as one person referred to them) who are allowed to say anything etc. And btw, these issues are very much related in my mind, because it is often behaviour and language (including hateful and/or abusive language) that the mods are moderating in the first place. I hope this answers your questions, and forgive me if it doesn't. I really don't mean to be rude, but I will try to stay out of this for a while so that we can hear as many opinions / interpretations as possible. I'll try to avoid over elaborating and leave the thread to people's interpretation instead. Thanks.
#17
Liddle ol' me;2783936
Sorry, not meaning to be rude at all jahl128 - and I will answer all questions later - and tbh, I didn't read thru your entire post, just gari's and the beginning of yours. But ok, the 'struggle for power' is a reference to all the 'the mods are wrong to delete this!' threads and that kind of thing. Also, the snide references to the same issues in multiple posts. You know the type I'm sure - 'the mods have favourites (or 'bitches' as one person referred to them) who are allowed to say anything etc. And btw, these issues are very much related in my mind, because it is often behaviour and language (including hateful and/or abusive language) that the mods are moderating in the first place. I hope this answers your questions, and forgive me if it doesn't. I really don't mean to be rude, but I will try to stay out of this for a while so that we can hear as many opinions / interpretations as possible. I'll try to avoid over elaborating and leave the thread to people's interpretation instead. Thanks.


Thats ok - and with the clarification I see the link you are trying to make more. Still think they are totally different points and should really be in seperate posts though - remember this is the feedback forum, its not the place to post cryptic or complex questions which can be interpreted in multiple ways... - at some point Paul will read this and he's much more likely to address the issues if they a raised in a simple manner :)
#18
jah128
Thats ok - and with the clarification I see the link you are trying to make more. Still think they are totally different points and should really be in seperate posts though - remember this is the feedback forum, its not the place to post cryptic or complex questions which can be interpreted in multiple ways... - at some point Paul will read this and he's much more likely to address the issues if they a raised in a simple manner :)


Yes, well I suppose I'm lucky to have people like you to clarify my complex (i.e. confused) meanings then. Perhaps any 'sense' in my post will have been teased out by the time he does appear (although maybe only if I stay away and stop confusing matters even more!) :p
1 Like #19
FWIW I think 'censoring' such comments (the glitter one's) would cause more harm than good, as that then opens the floodgates for complaints. Its inevitable on a forum that certain topics bring these very emotive responses (and also inevitable that the threads end up needing moderation and some posts removed) - but the balance between allowing open discussion and censoring is done pretty well on this site as it is in my opinion.

As for (what I consider to be) your other point re the power struggle and anti-mod comments, these likewise have always existed and are inevitable - people love a conspiracy theory - I think generally the mod's just accept it as something that will happen (and hopefully sometimes find some amusement in it). I don't think it really happens any more now than it ever has before (proportionally, the site is obviously still growing) and these things seem almost cyclical in nature - every few months things get a bit heated, some members fall out, a few get suspended etc etc, then it dies down, then it returns. Also remember its only really the misc forum - used only by a small proportion of the members (and ultimately something admin doesn't really care too much about!).
[helper]#20
jah128
at some point Paul will read this and he's much more likely to address the issues if they a raised in a simple manner :)


so might the rest of us :thumbsup:

jah128
FWIW I think 'censoring' such comments (the glitter one's) would cause more harm than good, as that then opens the floodgates for complaints. Its inevitable on a forum that certain topics bring these very emotive responses (and also inevitable that the threads end up needing moderation and some posts removed) - but the balance between allowing open discussion and censoring is done pretty well on this site as it is in my opinion.

Agree with Jah. It would be going to far to incite hate but as Jah mentions some topics are very emotive and so feelings of hate may already be present and members are expressing them. To censor them also denies others to counter those views. Its like the arguments about BNP - should they be given a platform to express their views and others the opportunity to highlight the fallacies in their views or should those be suppressed and people only see one side of the argument (ie the BNP side).
#21
jah128
FWIW I think 'censoring' such comments (the glitter one's) would cause more harm than good, as that then opens the floodgates for complaints. Its inevitable on a forum that certain topics bring these very emotive responses (and also inevitable that the threads end up needing moderation and some posts removed) - but the balance between allowing open discussion and censoring is done pretty well on this site as it is in my opinion.

As for (what I consider to be) your other point re the power struggle and anti-mod comments, these likewise have always existed and are inevitable - people love a conspiracy theory - I think generally the mod's just accept it as something that will happen (and hopefully sometimes find some amusement in it). I don't think it really happens any more now than it ever has before (proportionally, the site is obviously still growing) and these things seem almost cyclical in nature - every few months things get a bit heated, some members fall out, a few get suspended etc etc, then it dies down, then it returns. Also remember its only really the misc forum - used only by a small proportion of the members (and ultimately something admin doesn't really care too much about!).


Good post. In fact, I probably agree with pretty much everything you say on it. It's rational and considered. And of course my own thoughts about 'hate' speech are also as much an emotive response as those who call for catration etc. I just don't find it acceptable that we've some so far in our thinking that we should tolerate the kind of hate-fuelled responses that were the name of the game in the middle ages (lol). I do understand that most of those responsible for such kind of commentary are not even fully aware of what they say, or at least not of the power and consequences of their discourse (they are essentially primitive), but I'm afraid my own 'primitive' response is to resist it fully, even though I realise this is unlikely to earn me many friends in the process. I was thinking of the phrase "to have the courage of your convictions" early this morning, and I think I understand what it means now. I haven't always been very courageous when it comes to my convictions, but I think I have become much more so recently. It's very painful at times, but I hope it's making me a better person, and that even though I demonstate my own lack of sophistication while trying to work these things out for myself, I believe the results will show themselves in my children at least. If they can grow up less battered and brusied than me, and certainly less battered than those others I am rallying against, then perhaps the pain will have been worth it. Perhaps.
#22
Liddle ol' me
Good post. In fact, I probably agree with pretty much everything you say on it. It's rational and considered. And of course my own thoughts about 'hate' speech are also as much an emotive response as those who call for catration etc. I just don't find it acceptable that we've some so far in our thinking that we should tolerate the kind of hate-fuelled responses that were the name of the game in the middle ages (lol). I do understand that most of those responsible for such kind of commentary are not even fully aware of what they say, or at least not of the power and consequences of their discourse (they are essentially primitive), but I'm afraid my own 'primitive' response is to resist it fully, even though I realise this is unlikely to earn me many friends in the process. I was thinking of the phrase "to have the courage of your convictions" early this morning, and I think I understand what it means now. I haven't always been very courageous when it comes to my convictions, but I think I have become much more so recently. It's very painful at times, but I hope it's making me a better person, and that even though I demonstate my own lack of sophistication while trying to work these things out for myself, I believe the results will show themselves in my children at least. If they can grow up less battered and brusied than me, and certainly less battered than those others I am rallying against, then perhaps the pain will have been worth it. Perhaps.



I did start reading the Gary Glitter thread but it was so full of "Sun" style rhetoric that I didn't think there was much point in following it through.

I still take the view that everyone (and that includes me!) sitting at a computer keyboard and posting behind a screen name should not be taken too seriously. The chat side of HUKD is all a bit of fun - even trying to get yourself suspended/banned as some do. :whistling:
#23
I think that everyone can have an opinion and of course everyones opinion is different - the only thing I can see as a problem with the 'hate' wording as you put it - is when one person attacks another person for their opinion on here - but I do not have a problem with someone describing a paedophile as vile scum who deserve to die a painful death - in fact I think I could probably be the one who would offer to do make sure they did ! Some people are not as eloquant as others with their wording but 'say it as it is' and for me I think they should be allowed to
#24
sn0ttyang3l
I think that everyone can have an opinion and of course everyones opinion is different - the only thing I can see as a problem with the 'hate' wording as you put it - is when one person attacks another person for their opinion on here - but I do not have a problem with someone describing a paedophile as vile scum who deserve to die a painful death - in fact I think I could probably be the one who would offer to do make sure they did ! Some people are not as eloquant as others with their wording but 'say it as it is' and for me I think they should be allowed to


Yes, I agree that opinions differ and that this is a good and healthy thing. But I'm trying to get at something bigger than just 'the right to differ'. What I'm saying is that I don't think calling for castration, hanging, and slow painful torture are healthy responses and should at the very least be resisted and discouraged (and btw, these things are also banned under public law in the same way that paedophilia is). To put it another way, with an example, I think it would also be offensive if I were to go around saying things like "We should test people's IQ levels, and those deemed 'stupid' or unable to understand the laws of the country should be given a lobotomy and have their tongues removed so that they can't communicate the inevitable nonsense they will come out with." Even if it was my opinion (which of course it isn't), I don't think I should be allowed to promote such obviously intolerant views without censure. "Murder the stupid!" doesn't work for me. Niether does "Castrate and torture the paedophiles." I hope you see where I'm coming from here, and where my objections lie. :thumbsup:

(and btw, the eloquence thing is a straw-man argument here. Whether any of us are more or less eloquent than each other is unimportant compared with things like compassion and tolerance etc. I know a few eloquent people who hold what I consider to be despicable views.).

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