WARNING: People asking for payments as PayPal Gifts... - HotUKDeals
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[mod]#1
We have got this listed in the FS/T Forum rules as well :
(13) Goods remain the responsibility of the seller until the buyer takes possession and affirms they are okay. For this reason be honest in your descriptions and include original photos so the buyer knows what they are getting! Also, use a form of insured and signed for delivery to ensure any shipping/delivery mishaps will be covered.
*PayPal Advice:
If paying by PayPal's 'Gift' option to save on fees, you won't be able to raise a regular dispute with PayPal if a transaction goes wrong. For protection make a normal payment and pay the fees...

and in a specific buyer guide but it's a very good point to remind members of, especially the newer ones :thumbsup:
#2
Glad to see I'm behind the curve - would it be cheeky to change the rules to forbid requests for PayPal Gift payments altogether or is that a bit too far you think?
banned#3
so make people pay via paypal normal only, rather than gift, do we still allow people to pay by cheque or bank transfer if they havent got a paypal account? as that offers no protection either
#4
The point is that PayPal Gift removes any possibility of a refund completely and utterly - which seems foolish - and people many not even realise this.

Even a cashed cheque or BT can be reversed (although it's complex and costly to do) - it's just sensible ensure people realise what a 'Gift' really means...
#5
Its quite clearly explained in the rules and guidelines, it is up to people trading to read and follow the rules, there is only so much you can do to help people...
#6
sigma
We have got this listed in the FS/T Forum rules as well :
(13) Goods remain the responsibility of the seller until the buyer takes possession and affirms they are okay. For this reason be honest in your descriptions and include original photos so the buyer knows what they are getting! Also, use a form of insured and signed for delivery to ensure any shipping/delivery mishaps will be covered.

*PayPal Advice:
If paying by PayPal's 'Gift' option to save on fees, you won't be able to raise a regular dispute with PayPal if a transaction goes wrong. For protection make a normal payment and pay the fees... :



I didn't think you could raise a dispute when buying "privately" from someone else on here.
I just didn't think you were covered at all using Paypal on a site like this.

Could be wrong though, but I don't think so.
#7
I would only send a paypal gift to someone I know or trust, regardless of how good the deal!
banned#8
This whole thread is a little bit pathetic in my opinion.

What right does the OP or HUKD*'s to decide if people pay by paypal gift?

I decide who to trust on this forum, based on a number of factors. I wouldn't pay for any large amount via paypal gift, but then I wouldn't pay by paypal full stop. If I trust someone enough to trade with them, I trust them enough to use paypal gift and save on fees. I'm fully aware of where that leaves me in the case of a problem.

A couple of trades recently, I've requested the seller post first, and due to my own feedback, they have agreed - and I value that trust placed in me. My point is - people should not be reliant on paypal disputes anyway. If in doubt - don't buy, or collect in person.

Maybe you didn't intend it to be therealjohnpeat, but you have, again - only in my opinion - have come across a little too full of self importance, and a bit too insistant on your blinkered view.

* - I'm not suggesting that HUKDs have considered banning paypal gift.
[mod]#9
vibeone
* - I'm not suggesting that HUKDs have considered banning paypal gift.


And you are correct :). We cannot force members to make payment a certain way once the sale has been agreed in line with FS/T Rules, we can only offer advice as to the protection afforded by certain methods of payment over others. If both the buyer & seller agree to a paypal gift transaction & are aware of the inherent risks, then it's simply a case of buyer beware & it is a personal decision.

I think the OP is actually trying to help make some more inexperienced members aware of the negative aspects of paypal gift over a normal paypal transaction.

Jumpingphil
I didn't think you could raise a dispute when buying "privately" from someone else on here.
I just didn't think you were covered at all using Paypal on a site like this.
Could be wrong though, but I don't think so.


I will double check that for you. I do know that paypal can amend their rules & I'll clarify if the same protective conditions still apply, thanks :thumbsup:
banned#10
sigma
[B]

And you are correct :). We cannot force members to make payment a certain way once the sale has been agreed in line with FS/T Rules, we can only offer advice as to the protection afforded by certain methods of payment over others. If both the buyer & seller agree to a paypal gift transaction & are aware of the inherent risks, then it's simply a case of buyer beware & it is a personal decision.

I think the OP is actually trying to help make some more inexperienced members aware of the negative aspects of paypal gift over a normal paypal transaction.



Yeah probably... it just came across a bit head teacherish and preachy. Didn't like it! :)

Glad of the confirmation its not on the cards anyway
[mod]#11
I've got some advice on this, & looked on the Paypal website, but I may still need to clarify this. There's seems to be two different things to consider if you are the buyer or if you're the seller.

The buyer :
13.1 How am I protected if I have a problem with a purchase?

PayPal has 2 programs to help protect you:

1. PayPal Buyer Protection (for eligible items purchased with PayPal on eBay)
2. [COLOR="DarkRed"] PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy (for all other items purchased using PayPal on or off eBay).[/COLOR]
(together, referred to as “PayPal’s protection for buyers”).

& then goes on to state in the T&Cs
Claims which are associated with a purchase of an item outside of eBay are not eligible for re-imbursement under PayPal’s protections for buyers.


The buyer complaint policy is as follows:
13.10 What is the PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy?

The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy is a process to help you resolve a problem with a seller through the PayPal Resolution Centre for purchases that are not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection. It is similar to PayPal Buyer Protection in that it enables buyers to file a Dispute for an Item Not Received (INR) or for an item Significantly Not as Described (SNAD). [COLOR="DarkRed"]However, recovery of any amounts is not guaranteed and is limited to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account, even if it finds in your favour[/COLOR].


Now to the sellers protection.
11. PayPal Seller Protection

11.1 What is PayPal seller protection?

[COLOR="DarkRed"]We will re-imburse you for an amount for Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals made against you based on the following reasons:

1. A Chargeback or Reversal was issued against you for the reason of an “Unauthorised Payment”; or
2. A Chargeback or Claim was issued against you for the reason of “Item Not Received[/COLOR]”.#

11.2 PayPal seller protection is available for PayPal payment transactions received from:

1. buyers who send a PayPal payment for a item purchased via eBay worldwide and everywhere PayPal is accepted; and
2. [COLOR="DarkRed"]buyers who send a PayPal payment for an item purchased outside of eBay from the UK, US or Canada.
[/COLOR]
PayPal seller protection does not apply to Claims, Chargebacks and/or Reversals for Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) nor for items that you deliver in person.

11.3 How much protection is provided by PayPal seller protection?

PayPal will pay you the full amount of an eligible Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no annual limit on protection.


So it looks lke the buyer isn't covered outside of ebay, but the seller is with a standard paypal transaction. The buyer can open a complaint but there is no refund guarantee if I'm reading it correctly. The seller does seem to be covered however under the circumstances listed at paypal.
banned#12
sigma
I've got some advice on this, & looked on the Paypal website, but I may still need to clarify this. There's seems to be two different things to consider if you are the buyer or if you're the seller.

The buyer :
& then goes on to state in the T&Cs


The buyer complaint policy is as follows:

Now to the sellers protection.


So it looks lke the buyer isn't covered outside of ebay, but the seller is with a standard paypal transaction. The buyer can open a complaint but there is no refund guarantee if I'm reading it correctly. The seller does seem to be covered however under the circumstances listed at paypal.

Or to sum up, you may as well use paypal gift, because on both sides you get pretty much ****** all support from Paypal. Thread closed?
#13
vibeone
Or to sum up, you may as well use paypal gift, because on both sides you get pretty much ****** all support from Paypal. Thread closed?

I'm curious why you're so keen to blow-off a thread started with the intention of highlighting to people something they may not have realised???

I'm sorry if it sounded "teacherish and preachy" but when you make it out of your teens you'll realise the value of good advice and that the entire forum isn't intended just for your benefit :)

FYI - You CAN recover monies through PayPal for transactions outside of the Protection Programs (e.g. eBay) - it's harder to do but it IS possible because I've done it and I know others who've done it.

For transaction which are processed as purchases, PayPal maintain the need for Sellers to use trackable/insured shipping and support Buyer claims for non-recovery or misdescribed goods.

For PayPal Gifts they will do nothing- thus unless you like to increase the chance of losing your money entirely - it's inadvisable.

Furthermore sellers should not be requesting it - it's the Buyer's decision as it's the Buyer's money at risk - sellers can say if they want fees covered but not that they WANT a Gift payment - that's 100% wrong.

As for whether we should ban/control it - when transactions go wrong they have a tendency to backfire on the site their originated and it's important HUKD does what it can to appear to be offering solid advice and keeping traders as safe as possible as it's facilitating transactions.

and it seems it is - by reminding people of things like this...
banned#14
True colours at last - good.

"I'm curious why you're so keen to blow-off a thread started with the intention of highlighting to people something they may not have realised???"
-If you are trying to take aim at my integrity, I suggest you look at my feedback both here (+16 100% May 2007) and ebay (+102 100% January 2002)

"I'm sorry if it sounded "teacherish and preachy" but when you make it out of your teens you'll realise the value of good advice and that the entire forum isn't intended just for your benefit "
-I think this comment highlights EXACTLY what I mean by you sounding teacherish and preachy, and you can add childish and pathetic to that list as well :)

"FYI - You CAN recover monies through PayPal for transactions outside of the Protection Programs (e.g. eBay) - it's harder to do but it IS possible because I've done it and I know others who've done it."
I don't doubt it, but my comment about them doing ****** all to help is, in the majority of cases, true. You have to goto a whole lot of effort to get anything back, but I accept it can be done. However, it is limited to what is available to paypal in the other persons account - usually nothing. Paypal will not 'guarantee' anything.

"For transaction which are processed as purchases, PayPal maintain the need for Sellers to use trackable/insured shipping and support Buyer claims for non-recovery or misdescribed goods."
As stated earlier, what you are describing is how paypal attributse BLAME, not how they decide to give you your money back. As stated earlier in the thread, you will ONLY get back what paypal can remove from the other parties account - usually nothing as it will already have been withdrawn.

"Furthermore sellers should not be requesting it - it's the Buyer's decision as it's the Buyer's money at risk - sellers can say if they want fees covered but not that they WANT a Gift payment - that's 100% wrong."
"Payment £x by paypal gift" is just shorthand, and if a buyer asked to pay the paypal fees instead, I would have no problem in doing so. I'm sure most others would, but in my experience, no one wants to pay fees, and is perfectly happy to pay by paypal gift, fully knowing about the consequences of doing so (not a lot in actual fact but hey). I'm sure most sellers would be happy to offer normal paypal for those that want it, but I'm not going to type that out in every advert just because you've decided I should.

"As for whether we should ban/control it - when transactions go wrong they have a tendency to backfire on the site their originated and it's important HUKD does what it can to appear to be offering solid advice and keeping traders as safe as possible as it's facilitating transactions."
Luckily for us all, 'we' doesn't decide - the moderator team does. Luckily enough you play no part in it :)

"and it seems it is - by reminding people of things like this..."
Not really... the rules were clear already, and most of the replies in this thread have been along the lines of "this is a none issue"
#15
vibeone - You ignored every point I made and took everything else personally - you're still working on the theory that because you know it, everyone knows it - and you have the arrogance to shout about it as well - amazing...

jonnyq - part of my point is that Sellers are ASKING for PayPal Gift payments - it's entirely possible people will follow that request (or that sellers will insist on it) and not realise what they're getting into.

As such it's a bit like a seller asking for "cash in an envelope only" - I doubt that would be permitted and this is much the same thing.

Even if you're right and the T&Cs are fine - there was zero harm in raising the issue and I find the attitude of people like vibeone disappointing - it's as if I've upset them by trying to help people somehow - I'll not bother in future perhaps...
#16
therealjohnpeat


jonnyq - part of my point is that Sellers are ASKING for PayPal Gift payments - it's entirely possible people will follow that request (or that sellers will insist on it) and not realise what they're getting into.


Then they should read the rules and guidelines(as linked in EVERY thread) before trading.
banned#17
therealjohnpeat
vibeone - You ignored every point I made and took everything else personally - you're still working on the theory that because you know it, everyone knows it - and you have the arrogance to shout about it as well - amazing...

jonnyq - part of my point is that Sellers are ASKING for PayPal Gift payments - it's entirely possible people will follow that request (or that sellers will insist on it) and not realise what they're getting into.

As such it's a bit like a seller asking for "cash in an envelope only" - I doubt that would be permitted and this is much the same thing.

Even if you're right and the T&Cs are fine - there was zero harm in raising the issue and I find the attitude of people like vibeone disappointing - it's as if I've upset them by trying to help people somehow - I'll not bother in future perhaps...


Maybe thats for the best because the points you've made in this thread are incorrect in the majority of cases. The only part of your post I took personally was accusing me of not being out of my teens because I happened to disagree with the points you were making - mainly because you were wrong about important facts..

Oh and cash in an envelope is allowed, and the only problem with that is it could get lost in the post - this tends not to happen when you use paypal gift oddly.

I agree there is little difference between the 2 methods - but it doesn't matter. Its based on trust.

Oh and I notice you didn't bother to reply to my corrections to your mistakes regarding how different types of paypal protections work.

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