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How decisions are made on HUKD

POSTED BY: Admin 2 years, 4 months ago

I'm making this thread as I think there is some confusion amongst some members about how decisions are made on HUKD and how members fit into the decision making process. Hopefully this thread will be able to explain how site decisions are made.

The first thing to understand is that HUKD is not a democracy. To understand that is not necessarily bad thing is to first of all recognise that not really any site on the internet is a democracy (in the sense of members voting on all site decisions and the majority rules) and also that not being a democracy doesn't mean members do not have freedom to influence the decision making procedure. Despite what certain countries may say democracy does not necessarily equate to freedom and lack of democracy to lack of freedom ;) Those are all fuzzy terms anyway so not that useful but I thought it should be addressed as a common internet whinge is "oh xyz site administration is a dictatorship - we have no freedom" as if there were a common alternative, that a dictator is bad and that freedom doesn't exist on an open internet forum.

Second, everyone here has made a decision to come here and nothing forces you to remain. The site itself is like a framework and the members give that framework life - but essentially all the members who initially brought that framework to life did so because they agreed to operate by the fundamental processes of that framework. No one was born into HUKD or is bound to HUKD, everyone here has made the choice to come to the site, get involved and become part of the site's life. So there is an implicit agreement when coming and getting involved that members agree with the fundamentals of the site, how it is operated and who is ultimately in control of the framework. No-one is ultimately in control of individual members.

In this agreement to get involved there is the implicit agreement that you agree to play by the rules of the site while you are there. It doesn't mean you have to personally agree with the rules but that you do have to abide by them. These rules could be anything from the rule that says clicking on the HOT button makes a temperature go up, that responding to a thread bumps it to the top of a forum, that the Hot Deals forum is for deals and the Freebie forum is for freebies, that posting pornographic images is not allowed, etc. etc. basically all the rules which make up the site's framework that members operate within. If a person doesn't like those rules they can leave at any time, there is nothing that binds them to the site.

So ultimately from that basis we have (a) members who make up the life of the site and (b) a framework by which they have agreed to operate. The framework itself is built and determined by myself - this was not thrust upon anyone, it was the existing arrangement when any member came to the site and decided to take part and at any point a member can say "You know what, I don't like this framework anymore, I'm leaving" and simply close their browser window, delete the bookmark and never come by www.hotukdeals.com again.

Now according to this agreement I could do whatever I want with the site's framework and members can do whatever they want with being part of the site or not. So in the same way that this informal agreement says I get to make ultimate decisions with the framework - members also get to make the ultimate decision in whether they want to participate or not. I could decide tomorrow that let's make all the buttons work in reverse or put all Cold deals to the front of the site or ban every member whose name starts with "B". Doing that is of course within the agreement and doing that would probably result in members exercising their ability to end their participation.

Now the thing is when it comes to making a decision about the site it has to be acknowledged that the members who give life to the framework may also be taking it in ways other than that originally thought of. The truest kind of life is one which results in unexpected things. So when I'm sitting here making decisions about the site's direction and functionality I need to be sensitive to what the life of the site (i.e. the members) want and think. If I don't listen to the life of the site then one day I may think everyone on the site wants only cold deals on the front page or everyone who starts with "B" wants to be banned, take this action, and then end up losing all the members as they take off somewhere else.

So despite the practical fact that ultimate decision making power is in my hands it is actually in my interest (that is if my interest is in growing the site and making the best site possible for members) to listen to members and consider their input .

This is an important point. Members do not directly make site decisions however the input of members, their thoughts, their views, their criticism, directly feeds into the decision making process and is an integral part of it. And further it is in the sites interest to carefully consider and act upon the information and needs that are brought forward.

Now where this can introduce friction is that it is not based on votes, it is not majority rules, it is not transparent (in the sense that 51 members say do x and 50 say y thus we do x). However, the purpose of taking consideration on board is to carefully weigh that advice and make a final decision based on this. That means if any member looks at the site and says hey I've got a clever idea that will help us all in what we need to do - they don't need to go around stumping up votes - rather all they need to do is come to the Comments forum and make a good argument as to why the site should do that. It's the quality and depth of criticism and advice that is going to make a difference, not the number of people that happen to agree at that point.

Further, the implicit agreement between members and myself is that there is an expectation I will make decisions that are positive for the site as a whole. If I fail to do this then members can exercise their power and leave. This means that sometimes a member may really really really passionately believe in their idea or criticism but I may decide not to follow that advice/criticism. As the decisions are made for the site on a whole as judged by myself this may be frustrated for an individual, however they still have their right to exercise which is (a) trust the judgement of myself or (b) leave the site.

That's about it really. Hopefully that helps to explain how the site works, how important member feedback is to the decision making process and why decisions may not always accord with the feedback received.

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I have read all the posts here and I am beginning to think that there is a large influx of teenagers on here that do not appreciate the sort of items that are contains in the main part of this site, (and this is not directed at any individual person known to me )

I have also noticed a lot of immature/ stupid/ unhelpful comments that seem to provoke a rapid response that seems to take off in all directions. I am also very surprised at how some peoples post counts seems to have risen due to 'spam' posting (which I have been guilty of as well) rather than quality deal posts. I have come to realise that this site is not Bebo or My Space and therefore not a community chat-ground either which it seems to have become in recent months.

I know I have a very stressful job and I cannot post deals all the time but I do try and read what is put on here by others and sometimes it is just a case of seeing something, buying it and not having enough time to respond to the OP, which I regret. Equally so I do receive in excess of 250 emails a days, of which less that 1% are spam, but I also get to hear of some very good deals that are not available to the general public either, for example today a shop was selling 32" plasma screen TV's for £50 but it was only available for the first 10 people, why did I not highlight it here?? I did not get one but 2 of my friends did who I told and I know they deserved they and would not buy them for the sake of flogging them on other sites.

I think there needs to be a bit of a shake up here, and a bit more respect towards the ethics of the site rather than the ethics of some members.
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I'd agree also that there is a large amount of teenagers on the board, Mostly students and I bet some of this sites best earners/contributers.

Although not 100% sure what that has to do with posting though, You can get 40 year old men acting like 5 year olds when they don't get a misprice etc.

I'd say the immaturity of more members is an issue, Rather than their age.
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I think there needs to be a bit of a shake up here, and a bit more respect towards the ethics of the site rather than the ethics of some members.
I agree 100%. I think there are a lot of comments that are getting posted due to personal issues and history and not due to reflection on the site as a whole and what we are trying to do as a community. That is the number one most important thing to me and I hope to other members also and that is the one thing I want everyone of us to be accountable for.
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I for one am just tired of the whole moaning thing now. Do what i do, accept the rules and carry on or leave.

It's incredibly boring logging in each day just to find more posts moaning. Surely to god your lives can not be that lacking that this is such a big issue.
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Having Read the Admins comments about this site not being a democracy I can see why they wont now change it back. "Its my ball and we play the game my way" springs to mind. Well guess what Admin, A lot of people dont like the changes you made to the game and will be playing somewhere else if you dont change it back soon.
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Admin, thanks for the post outlining your position.
Would it be possible for you to clarify if there is any possibility of the 'old' site being brought back (or being made available in tandem with the new site) ...or is this completely out of the question?
I think that some clarification on this would, at least, be helpful in establishing the 'lie of the land' and allow the focus to turn to improvements needed to the 'new' site. (My own personal preference would be to run it in parallel for a while, allowing the true benefits of the new site to naturally attract those using the old site!)
Please reply...
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disasterzone:
Having Read the Admins comments about this site not being a democracy I can see why they wont now change it back. "Its my ball and we play the game my way" springs to mind. Well guess what Admin, A lot of people dont like the changes you made to the game and will be playing somewhere else if you dont change it back soon.
Yep. I'm refusing to post any more deals or use the affiliate "go to deal" links until Admin deigns to speak to us mere mortals and explain why he is being so pig-headed about this.
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love this bit lol ! :
Here's the second one where the host is just a jerk. The host builds the house, starts the music, taps the kegs and opens the door. Lots of people show up and are having a good time. The host gets drunk, starts harrassing people, annoying them, telling them they're a bunch of idiots. Everyone goes errrr and walks out the door and goes to the party next door...after all the whole street...actually the whole city is one big open house party. The host sits all alone in an empty house.
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It all becomes clear..... ;)
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Admin:
I agree 100%. I think there are a lot of comments that are getting posted due to personal issues and history and not due to reflection on the site as a whole and what we are trying to do as a community. That is the number one most important thing to me and I hope to other members also and that is the one thing I want everyone of us to be accountable for.
interesting that on the whole all things being considered there has never been a mention of renumeration and although the site as a whole has probably outgrown the statute you set out to achieve, there is a monetary issue involved in any site such as this and it would be interesting to some of the users (not members as this implies paid up status) to find out what if any the financial implications of the site change are, have or could be? And just to add fuel to the debate on returning to the old style format it would be far simpler keeping the format but allowing complete customisation under the custom option as it is you can only set minor custom settings.It would be nice to have say the vouchers tab set as a choice of A to Z or newest first which seems to be a major grievence. category could have a newest option, also newest (retail) newest (forum style) so as to differentiate between the two which are coming up together at the moment, this was one of the best parts of the old system being able to "filter" the deals only, ignoring the forum threads. the merchant tab is pretty redundant un less you have a list (a to z like before) to choose from. I know you can do this from the new top tabs but lets be honest it would be easier to have the section marked custom to be a way of setting a custom user site which once set needs no massive energy expenditure to acheive every time you logg on? Maybe getting back to my first point as a possible money making exercise you could charge a nominal £5 a year to be able to have the right to customise the custom section for "members" in a true custom way! OMG what DID i just suggest............
remember one fly in a bowl of soup is annoying, but one hundred makes it un eatable!

Last edited by agent_c : 14-12-2007 at 21:26.
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I don't know if you read the whole thing but I tried to explain that dynamic clearly.

Imagine a forum is a house. The forum founder builds that house opens the doors and says here's the rules of the party let's have some fun. People wander by and say that looks like a nice house let's join the party. Eventually someone drinks too much and starts being aggressive and harassing other people at the party. The host comes along and says I gave you the rules of the house, you accepted them when you came in and now you're breaking them - please leave. The drunk guy gets all red in the face and says who are you to tell me what to do - don't you realise you wouldn't have a party if "I" wasn't here....

That's the first scenario where the host has the best interest of all party goers in mind and thus asks the drunken one to leave.

Here's the second one where the host is just a jerk. The host builds the house, starts the music, taps the kegs and opens the door. Lots of people show up and are having a good time. The host gets drunk, starts harrassing people, annoying them, telling them they're a bunch of idiots. Everyone goes errrr and walks out the door and goes to the party next door...after all the whole street...actually the whole city is one big open house party. The host sits all alone in an empty house.

This isn't about making decisions anymore - it's simply about the dynamics of a web site. The site founder is the host, the members are the party. Some people are going to get asked to leave from the party because they're drunk, or maybe they will be made to feel uncomfortable because they're City traders and the party is full of Goths, or whatever. The point is that they walked into the party to start with and there's another party next door anyway.

The second point is that if all the members leave there is no party there's just an empty house. However, a good host doesn't say wow that guy is harassing or ruining the vibe here for everyone else but hey without people there's no party so I guess what right do I have to ask them to leave. No, a good host asks that person to leave so that the rest of the members can have a good time.

And what if the host is jerk? Well then the party is over, the site is dead and all the people can be laughing and having a good time at the party next door.

So why get worked up about freedom and rights and how unfair life is? If the host at the party is a jerk then just walk out the door and go to the next party. You'll not only have a better time you can even laugh when the host sits all alone in a big empty house full of empty kegs, vomit and spilled beer.
Or what about the host builds the house but his friends pop round and help him decorate, move in and buy him stuff to turn his house into a home. They have partys and everything is going swimingly. That is until the host decides he can do everything off his own back, rips all the wallpaper down his friends decorated and paints his walls white, throws clutter all over making the house an absolute mess and mentions none of this to his friends until they turn up to an uninvited party and they all start to



they then say "what happened to the home we helped you create", "why is this place such a mess?"


Last edited by Endgame : 14-12-2007 at 22:55.
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agent_c, there's no financial implications of any of this so I don't understand your post?
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A while back the bbc changed the format of their online forums, in the begining there was a huge outcry becuase what was once a great community had been changed. There was anarchy on the site or a month or so, but the bbc did not listen they stood fast and didn't change the site back. In the end the forums lost 80% of their members and people ended up starting new sites for the displaced members. It would be a shame for something similar to happen here. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the users of the forums and if you do you could find youself in trouble. Guys on MSE are already talking about setting up their own site with a similar format to the old forum. My advice is to think carefully about what you are doing, afterall its no skin of my nose, I'll just go wherever the next best site is, as you said.
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cr362:
A while back the bbc changed the format of their online forums, in the begining there was a huge outcry becuase what was once a great community had been changed. There was anarchy on the site or a month or so, but the bbc did not listen they stood fast and didn't change the site back. In the end the forums lost 80% of their members and people ended up starting new sites for the displaced members. It would be a shame for something similar to happen here. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the users of the forums and if you do you could find youself in trouble. Guys on MSE are already talking about setting up their own site with a similar format to the old forum. My advice is to think carefully about what you are doing, afterall its no skin of my nose, I'll just go wherever the next best site is, as you said.
I used to use the bbc footbal forum alot before they changed it,alot of useful info & very easy to use.Since the change i have maybe gone back twice,time will tell on this forum.
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