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Anyone with legal/medical knowledge?

karenhornby Avatar
8y, 2m agoPosted 8 years, 2 months ago
Long story cut very short,
Last year other half was rushed into hospital and ended up being diagnosed with multiple cerebral (brain) abyss's

was in hospital for about 10 days, after 5-6 days we got told that it was so bad that even if he woke from the medical coma they put him in, he would be so brain damaged that it wasnt worth it and me and his mum (who flew over from Ireland) then had to accept the doctors opinion he was going to die

the doctors said he wont make it through the night, and put a DO NOT ATTEMPT RESSUSSICATION notice in his file (heartbreaking)

they kept trying to find a bed in a neurological hospital but one wasnt available
they kept the DNAR notice going and signed every day, until 4 days later (5th day of DNAR notice) they said they had managed to get him a bed in a neuro hospital and transferred him there
they said dont get hopes up he wont make it. and if he did then he would basically be a vegetable
we had already discussed his funeral arrangements.

long story cutting short now, day after he was transferred they operated took biopsy from brain, hestarted coming round, 6 weeks later was out of hospital, although couldnt walk for a few months after and was IV antio biotics for 6 months after that, (nurses coming round twice a day to inject them into a tube in his heart)

now he is fully recovered, no brain damage nothings changed other than his short term memory is pretty [email protected] at the moment but that;s nothing.

WHat I want to know is there anything we can do about the original hospital putting a dnar notice on his file when he recovered so well, makes me wonder how many others they put it on that COULD have recovered but didnt get the chance

also they broke their own guidelines by not discussing the dnar notice with us before they applied it, the letter they sent to his doc said he was discharged to a hospital thats in another county that he definately hasnt been near.

I'm glad he is fine now but really really pi@@ed off at the original hospital.
We have just got all his medical records from there and there are several inconsistincies in the notes made while he was there, but we now have a copy of his scans showing how big the absyss's were!

I know there probably isnt anything we can do but does anyone know this for definate?
as the stress and worrry drove us craze, we cried for days thinking he was going to die that night, we cried for months wondering how brain damaged he'd end up eventually and when we finally told him about the dnar notice he ended up having what they think might have been a mild heart attack, or an angina attack (they couldn't test because of the meds for the abssy's) and he also refused to stay in hospital in case they put another dnar on him

funny thing is the letter sent to the doc about that says... admitted to hospital
which he again wasnt.

any advice welcome
sorry for it being so long
karenhornby Avatar
8y, 2m agoPosted 8 years, 2 months ago
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#1
wow - that is so sad, I am sure you allowed to ask for a copy of notes now the law changed awhile back and you are entitled to see all medical notes - I would say that would be your first step - good luck
#2
omg im glad u got such a good ending but u guys went through hell!!
#3
thanks
yes we got all the medical records including notes
only problem is neither of us know if there is anything we can actually do about them "giving up" on him when he recovered so well once he was transferred
I cant even begin to describe what its like being told they put the notice in his file, that means if his heart stopped for any reason they werent going to do anything about it, just let him die
he is only 47 not 90
[mod]#4
Your best bet would be to call your local Citizens Advice Bureau and they will appoint you a firm of solicitors if you want to follow that route. If not, they can give you basic advice.
#5
If it were me, I'd just be happy that I'd got my other half back in one piece. Medicine isn't an exact science, and what is usually a completely unrecoverable problem in 99.999% of patients can have just that 0.001% of patients that actually recover.
#6
octobergirl
wow - that is so sad, I am sure you allowed to ask for a copy of notes now the law changed awhile back and you are entitled to see all medical notes - I would say that would be your first step - good luck


I would definitely ask for all medical notes to see the reason why DNAR was signed. By law you are entitled to know what is in those notes but they can ask to appoint someone else to see them (this applies to written and computer records)
Some of the notes can be withheld if it is believed that serious harm could possibly be caused to your husbands health if he saw them.
Cant imagine watching my husband go through that, i am glad he is on the mend though:)
#7
Gazbert
If it were me, I'd just be happy that I'd got my other half back in one piece. Medicine isn't an exact science, and what is usually a completely unrecoverable problem in 99.999% of patients can have just that 0.001% of patients that actually recover.


kinda agree with the above.... my hubby is a dentist and ok fair enough its not life or death...but he is jus providing a service... things can go wrong....but its always annoying when ppl try to take advantage... not saying u r.... but what do u hope to gain...getting those docs outta job, a big cash payment..... you have gone through a heck of a lot.... if ur looking for an apology fair enough...
#8
karenhornby
thanks
yes we got all the medical records including notes
only problem is neither of us know if there is anything we can actually do about them "giving up" on him when he recovered so well once he was transferred
I cant even begin to describe what its like being told they put the notice in his file, that means if his heart stopped for any reason they werent going to do anything about it, just let him die
he is only 47 not 90


Its hard to deal with and if i was confronted with that i too would not be very happy. Like Gazbert said, sometimes miracles do happen and they happen for a reason. They would not of put a DNAR on your husband without a reason although i would ask for the hospitals DNAR policy as from what you are saying they did not comply to this.
#9
Already have the notes and records
and yes I know doctors do make mistakes ....but they shouldnt
not really interested in money, that wont change anything really
what I'm more interested in is what legal steps I can make or do
because although I've complained to the hospital and not even got an apology by biggest worry is what about all the other people that they put a dnar note on their file, dont get transferred and die un-nessesarily
what about all the ones that have dies but might have lived just because doctors are in a rush to get rid of the beds?
#10
when i was 8 my dad went it to hospital with, what they thought was, alcohol poisoning. they then said it was TWO LARGE brain heammorages, he went into a coma, and had the DO NOT RESUSITATE in his notes too, my mum was told to tell us he was going to die. so she sat down an eight year old, 10 year old and 12year old and told them that there dad was going to die. one of the hardest things my mum has had to do. anyway long story short they opperated, turned out was ONE MASSIVE heamorage. we were then told he's always suffer from short term memory loss, and that he would be severly brain damanged and probably not walk etc. well his memory recovered, he walked with in weeks of the operation, drove etc. lived a normal life pretty much except a slight change in personality. he suffered another heammorage when i was 16 and died as a result (though tjis was due to alchohol abuse after being warned it would happen again if he continued to drink)

at the end of the day they just dont know enough about the brain and can only say what they think is the truth. its hard to be told that someone you love will certainly die and then to suffer there life, but best way to cope is e thankful that they were wrong.

thats how my mum coped, she'll never forgive herself for telling us he was going to die, but she really had no choice, it had to be done to let us be ready when it did happen.
#11
At the end of the day I'll be so glad my loved one was alive and well, leave it and move on.
#12
Abvance
At the end of the day I'll be so glad my loved one was alive and well, leave it and move on.


my thoughts too. no point in wondering what if,....
#13
karenhornby
Already have the notes and records
and yes I know doctors do make mistakes ....but they shouldnt
not really interested in money, that wont change anything really
what I'm more interested in is what legal steps I can make or do
because although I've complained to the hospital and not even got an apology by biggest worry is what about all the other people that they put a dnar note on their file, dont get transferred and die un-nessesarily
what about all the ones that have dies but might have lived just because doctors are in a rush to get rid of the beds?



are u concerned of a track record or something.... i just worry u will bring down someones career when they spent time and effort in thinking what they thoguht was best for ur husbands health.

when did this happen....?

dont get me wrong im not having a moan at ur expense..... just tread carefully.... the nhs is a pretty good service....i was always there complaining about amount of tax we pay but when my grandad died in hospital a few months back i was in the wards at night and its fantastic how anyone can go to hopsital to be given equal top quality care..... noone is favoured and they work hard on each and every patient.... luckily ur husband recovered.... surely thats enough?:)
#14
mummyspam1985
when i was 8 my dad went it to hospital with, what they thought was, alcohol poisoning. they then said it was TWO LARGE brain heammorages, he went into a coma, and had the DO NOT RESUSITATE in his notes too, my mum was told to tell us he was going to die. so she sat down an eight year old, 10 year old and 12year old and told them that there dad was going to die. one of the hardest things my mum has had to do. anyway long story short they opperated, turned out was ONE MASSIVE heamorage. we were then told he's always suffer from short term memory loss, and that he would be severly brain damanged and probably not walk etc. well his memory recovered, he walked with in weeks of the operation, drove etc. lived a normal life pretty much except a slight change in personality. he suffered another heammorage when i was 16 and died as a result (though tjis was due to alchohol abuse after being warned it would happen again if he continued to drink)

at the end of the day they just dont know enough about the brain and can only say what they think is the truth. its hard to be told that someone you love will certainly die and then to suffer there life, but best way to cope is e thankful that they were wrong.

thats how my mum coped, she'll never forgive herself for telling us he was going to die, but she really had no choice, it had to be done to let us be ready when it did happen.



thats a sad story...was this at medway hosp?? and good luck with ur impending birth...delivered my second one at medway 2 years ago...its fantastic there! first one was in wordsely hosp in west mids.... and compared to that this place was like going private hehe!!
#15
magicbeans
are u concerned of a track record or something.... i just worry u will bring down someones career when they spent time and effort in thinking what they thoguht was best for ur husbands health.

when did this happen....?


It was October/November last year

and as to the track record
just look up Tameside hospital on the net and you'll see why I worry so much about it happening again and happened before.
banned#16
karenhornby
Already have the notes and records
and yes I know doctors do make mistakes ....but they shouldnt
not really interested in money, that wont change anything really
what I'm more interested in is what legal steps I can make or do
because although I've complained to the hospital and not even got an apology by biggest worry is what about all the other people that they put a dnar note on their file, dont get transferred and die un-nessesarily
what about all the ones that have dies but might have lived just because doctors are in a rush to get rid of the beds?


if you are that concerned that what has happended is not right, then go and see a solicitor, personally i would want to know why they had put a DNR on his notes, doctors can only work with what they know, and sadly medical science isnt exact so this is what you should be checking, that all noughts and crosses where ticked
#17
magicbeans
thats a sad story...was this at medway hosp?? and good luck with ur impending birth...delivered my second one at medway 2 years ago...its fantastic there! first one was in wordsely hosp in west mids.... and compared to that this place was like going private hehe!!


he was admitted at medway then moved to the brook in london when they realised it wasnt alcohol poisoning, was the brook that that his first coma with the DNR. but had another coma at medway. and died at medway years later, when they turned of his life suppirt machine after less than 24hours, because his results come back as brain dead.

my kids were born at maidstone hospital, malachi was born there cos i didnt want him born where my dad died, and tabatha was bron there cos i didnt feel it was right to bring her into the world where malachi left the world.

we are going for home birth this time but if we have to go in then we will be going to the medway (after i found out that there was a cover up of CDIF both years that my babies were born at maidstone). really hope i dont end up in hospital be really sad also cos malachi and tabatha wee born in the exact same room at maidstone too. :oops:
#18
karenhornby
Already have the notes and records
and yes I know doctors do make mistakes ....but they shouldnt
not really interested in money, that wont change anything really
what I'm more interested in is what legal steps I can make or do
because although I've complained to the hospital and not even got an apology by biggest worry is what about all the other people that they put a dnar note on their file, dont get transferred and die un-nessesarily
what about all the ones that have dies but might have lived just because doctors are in a rush to get rid of the beds?


Jut because your husband didn't die like the doctor predicted does not mean there diagnosis was a mistake but yes i agree sometimes mistakes do happen and that is unfortunate.
Be thankful that your husband is still here today.

I am not having a dig, i can see where you are coming from, my MIL got wrongly diagnosed and unfortunately passed away in May. I would rather be prepared for what might happen than have a loved one die unexpectedly.
The doctor in my MIL case got struck off as there were many cases that were misdiagnosed but i must stress this is a rare case! There is nothing that will bring my MIL back.
You still have your husband, be thankful, they obviously done something right or he wouldn't still be here today :)

If you believe that you were misinformed or that the hospital did not comply with the DNAR then take the necessary legal action. Check the current legislation and see it complies.

The Human Rights Act (1998) incorporates several articles that are relevant to resuscitation decisions. Under the act, it is essential that decisions relating to resuscitation must be compatible with human rights. As do not resuscitate orders infringe the right to life, healthcare professionals should be able to justify these decisions.
#19
mummyspam1985
he was admitted at medway then moved to the brook in london when they realised it wasnt alcohol poisoning, was the brook that that his first coma with the DNR. but had another coma at medway. and died at medway years later, when they turned of his life suppirt machine after less than 24hours, because his results come back as brain dead.

my kids were born at maidstone hospital, malachi was born there cos i didnt want him born where my dad died, and tabatha was bron there cos i didnt feel it was right to bring her into the world where malachi left the world.

we are going for home birth this time but if we have to go in then we will be going to the medway (after i found out that there was a cover up of CDIF both years that my babies were born at maidstone). really hope i dont end up in hospital be really sad also cos malachi and tabatha wee born in the exact same room at maidstone too. :oops:


Thats really sad. I hope everything goes well and you get the home birth you want :thumbsup:
#20
karenhornby
Already have the notes and records
and yes I know doctors do make mistakes ....but they shouldnt
not really interested in money, that wont change anything really
what I'm more interested in is what legal steps I can make or do
because although I've complained to the hospital and not even got an apology by biggest worry is what about all the other people that they put a dnar note on their file, dont get transferred and die un-nessesarily
what about all the ones that have dies but might have lived just because doctors are in a rush to get rid of the beds?


What did the hospital say when you complained? Complaints should always be followed up by letters, only for your own protection, this way it can always be discussed at meetings. If you want advise off some professionals ring The Independent Complaints Advisory Service on 0845 120 3735 and they will advise you on whats best :thumbsup:
#21
just a note that although you say you dont want money (which would obvioulsy hinder the NHS if everyone did this thereby probably causing more issues as moneys dwindle even further), what do u want to come of it. because no matter what you do it will effect the NHS moneywise, time wise etc.

my son died and there was many mistakes made after his death, such as writing his name wrong on his body, not doing an inquest untill almost a year later, and allowing me to cremate him when i was told he was issued a death certificate, which he wasnt. and while i wan the individuals to pay for what they have caysed me to have to live with, which is that i waited two months to cremate him becasue i didnt want him to be still aofficaiily alive (not registered dead) and they lied and i still cremated him before he was officially recorded as dead. thereby making me feel like i burnt him alive, i didnt but thats what i feel, everyday. i still made the desision not to go through the complaints procedure because i realise that it wont change what happened and will take money and time away from a very important service (NHS)

so i feel that me holding back will help other mothers more than me seeking out an appology or inquest etc.

does that make sence wiothout sounding like im having a go. i know its really hard to hold back as u will aways remember how u felt, but will it really achieve anything to persue it?
#22
mummyspam1985
just a note that although you say you dont want money (which would obvioulsy hinder the NHS if everyone did this thereby probably causing more issues as moneys dwindle even further), what do u want to come of it. because no matter what you do it will effect the NHS moneywise, time wise etc.

my son died and there was many mistakes made after his death, such as writing his name wrong on his body, not doing an inquest untill almost a year later, and allowing me to cremate him when i was told he was issued a death certificate, which he wasnt. and while i wan the individuals to pay for what they have caysed me to have to live with, which is that i waited two months to cremate him becasue i didnt want him to be still aofficaiily alive (not registered dead) and they lied and i still cremated him before he was officially recorded as dead. thereby making me feel like i burnt him alive, i didnt but thats what i feel, everyday. i still made the desision not to go through the complaints procedure because i realise that it wont change what happened and will take money and time away from a very important service (NHS)

so i feel that me holding back will help other mothers more than me seeking out an appology or inquest etc.

does that make sence wiothout sounding like im having a go. i know its really hard to hold back as u will aways remember how u felt, but will it really achieve anything to persue it?


You are very mature for your age and sounds like you have been through a lot. I can completely understand what you say, we went through the same with my mother in law. Although we were deeply upset there was nothing that could bring her back and if we did fight it would upset everyone else and we just wanted to remember the good times and have the happy memories :)
banned#23
''Do not resuscitate (DNR [1]) orders can be considered only after discussion with the patient or others close to the patient, and they should be reviewed at regular intervals.' This is the opinion of the British Medical Association, the Resuscitation Council (UK) and the Royal College of Nursing. Their advice is set against the background where traditionally clinicians determined their patients' resuscitation status without consulting the person or relatives - a situation that is now regarded as morally indefensible''

Im pretty sure you should be able to do something about this, they should have consulted you, or at least your other half, they cant make a decision like that by themselves.....
#24
I'd write a letter of complaint and you should definitely get a response outlining what changes they will make to prevent re-occurence, but as others have said, I wouldn't bother seeking compensation - it will just adversely effect someone else's care.
[helper]#25
Gazbert
If it were me, I'd just be happy that I'd got my other half back in one piece. Medicine isn't an exact science, and what is usually a completely unrecoverable problem in 99.999% of patients can have just that 0.001% of patients that actually recover.


Agree with Gazbert - I suspect the doctors would have had a very good reason for the DNR notice eg they probably thought he would suffer further brain complications. There is no way that they would have put a DNR notice on because there wasn't a bed at a specialist unit.

I think you have been really fortunate. I think people have unrealistic expectations of medicine. People get relatively minor infections/illnesses which lead to death and doctors can't explain why but it doesn't mean anyone is to blame.

If you haven't already done so you could try writing to the Chief Exec but rather than concentrate on what might have happened, I'd concentrate on the positive aspect.....he's alive, relatively well and will hopefully continue to prove.
#26
Wow glad your partner recovered, tbh id just be so glad that things worked out like they did, a hospital has got to tell you the worst case scenario i imagine, what they told you will of been from long experience of seeing the said condition and how it evolves and the usual outcome of it, so please dont blame them im sure they did everything they could possibly do, everyone in the hospital is following instructions remember :thumbsup:

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