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Are Ebay Liable? Discuss.

£0.00 @ eBay
Produce arguments for and against Ebay. Dont let the fact that they earn a billion gazillion each year, or you have had a bad experience with them, make you think that they are liable for this, un… Read More
kapows Avatar
banned7y, 8m agoPosted 7 years, 8 months ago
Produce arguments for and against Ebay.

Dont let the fact that they earn a billion gazillion each year, or you have had a bad experience with them, make you think that they are liable for this, unless ofcourse, you can make a valid argument.




Basically Ebay have been and are still being sued over the fact that they are selling counterfeit goods.

Ebay argue that they are not responsible for this, as they are only providing a trading platform for the public to use as a buying/selling ground.

If knock-off nigel was selling knock-off dvd's at your locals, would the landlord be responsible and fined?

Personally i dont think Ebay are responsible for policing counterfeit goods. If you sign up to their site and sell goods, you, as the user, are bound by their terms and conditions. If you dont like them you dont sign up. So ideally, you as the user are liable for what you sell and if you as the user break the T&C's then you as the user are to be held responsible, no?
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kapows Avatar
banned7y, 8m agoPosted 7 years, 8 months ago
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banned#1
A couple of articles for further reading -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160650/LOreal-sues-eBay-preventing-sales-counterfeit-products-site.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jul/01/ebay.hitechcrime

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/27/ebay_loreal/comments/

[SIZE="3"]Also, would sites like say, Gumtree be responsible too? Or other sites like, Classifieds.com and such?[/SIZE]
#2
Ebay have long been known to turn a blind eye and practically encourage the sale of fake goods,Obviously they cannot police everything but even when goods are reported as fakes ebay does very little about it,
banned#3
Aye, so it could be. But i dont find them responsible for managing the sales of fake goods.

If the retailer of the original item can prove, that Ebay have done very little about reports made on the product, then maybe they might have a case. But this is very difficult to prove. The retailer should instead be given the seller's details so the seller can be contacted.

What you think?
1 Like #4
kapows
Aye, so it could be. But i dont find them responsible for managing the sales of fake goods.

If the retailer of the original item can prove, that Ebay have done very little about reports made on the product, then maybe they might have a case. But this is very difficult to prove. The retailer should instead be given the seller's details so the seller can be contacted.

What you think?


I agrre but most of the time ebay just do nothing and pocket the fees,
#5
i had auctions cancelled once for listing next boots and saying ugg style n there were loads ov other people doing the same.how annoying.
1 Like #6
I recently reported the fact they'd allowed a seller to sell me counterfeit razor blades - mentioned that I had proof of this from the manufacturer. They refunded me no problem, but haven't done anything about the seller at all - even though I offered them evidence.
#7
They turn a blind eye - because if they did something then they would lose business.

THATS the major problem with ebay.
banned#8
Yep! They definitely pocket the fees!

The fees are for the service they provide the seller to sell the product and for the buyer to buy the product. As their customer base and the opportunity to sell an item exceed other methods.

I guess taking the fees for a product that should not be sold is considered morally wrong. But if the item is labelled as original, it is a difficult task to prove otherwise.

Again it comes down to the seller and whether they can be trusted to abide by the rules.
banned#9
moob
I recently reported the fact they'd allowed a seller to sell me counterfeit razor blades - mentioned that I had proof of this from the manufacturer. They refunded me no problem, but haven't done anything about the seller at all - even though I offered them evidence.


LOL!! What are counterfeit blades like?

Atleast you were refunded which is a good thing.

However, their lack of taking action against the seller is confrontable. I guess a suing body can use this to their advantage.
banned#10
Maybe it is the wrong forum to discuss lol :-)
1 Like #11
cant wait for fleabay to collapse......sorry just popped into my head... lol

Yes, I think they should be liable, like you stated that eBay ONLY provide a trading platform for the public to use as a buying/selling ground....therefore they are partly liable as they are facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods by providing said platform.

:)
banned#12
StevenA2000_uk
cant wait for fleabay to collapse......sorry just popped into my head... lol

Yes, I think they should be liable, like you stated that eBay ONLY provide a trading platform for the public to use as a buying/selling ground....therefore they are partly liable as they are facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods by providing said platform.

:)


Lol! Thanks for the input :-D

They (Ebay) provide a trading platform, but they cannot be held responsible for every trade made on that platform. They clearly state in their rules what is and isnt allowed.

If someone breaks those rules, surely they cant be held responsible for someone elses actions?




Let me use a shopping centre as an example.

The building is owned by you, Steven. You allow the floor to be rented by shops. The shop pays you rent, to sell their goods. You are a platform for trading.

If a customer buys something from a shop, and is not happy with the product, the shop (Seller) is responsible for the handling of the item. Not you.

The owner of the shopping centre is not liable for a shop selling questionnable goods in its shopping centre. You will be protected by law and cannot be sued.

The seller, however, is not protected by law.

The same applies to market stalls, or carboot sales.

Thoughts?
#13
kapows
Lol! Thanks for the input :-D

They (Ebay) provide a trading platform, but they cannot be held responsible for every trade made on that platform. They clearly state in their rules what is and isnt allowed.

If someone breaks those rules, surely they cant be held responsible for someone elses actions?

Let me use a shopping centre as an example.

The building is owned by you, Steven. You allow the floor to be rented by shops. The shop pays you rent, to sell their goods. You are a platform for trading.

If a customer buys something from a shop, and is not happy with the product, the shop (Seller) is responsible for the handling of the item. Not you.

The owner of the shopping centre is not liable for a shop selling questionnable goods in its shopping centre. You will be protected by law and cannot be sued.

The seller, however, is not protected by law.

The same applies to market stalls, or carboot sales.


You're referencing T&Cs, rules etc.....entirely different from the Law.....in which the selling of counterfeit goods is illegal......and ignoring their inherent responsibility wont do them much good either, thats like lighting a cigarette and taking no responsibility when the house burns to the ground because you dont know what you done with it........

So far, I havent heard anyone put forward a reasonable argue against the point I've made, which is they are facilitating the sale of every item sold on the site by merely providing the selling ground......this is clearly evidenced by them charging a fee for every sale, so to say they dont know about or monitor any given sale is blatant lies on their behalf. They seem to do a good job of policing the the final value fees and ensuring those get applied......

:)
#14
You can't expect ebay to check every single item, they must have at least 1000 new items being listed every few minutes.
I think the buyer should use common sense, if someone is selling an iphone for £100 its obviously going to be a fake.
banned#15
You're referencing T&Cs, rules etc.....entirely different from the Law.....in which the selling of counterfeit goods is illegal......and ignoring their inherent responsibility wont do them much good either, thats like lighting a cigarette and taking no responsibility when the house burns to the ground because you dont know what you done with it........

So far, I havent heard anyone put forward a reasonable argue against the point I've made, which is they are facilitating the sale of every item sold on the site by merely providing the selling ground......this is clearly evidenced by them charging a fee for every sale, so to say they dont know about or monitor any given sale is blatant lies on their behalf. They seem to do a good job of policing the the final value fees and ensuring those get applied......


The law states you are not allowed to sell counterfeit goods.
Your site states if you are to use the site you are not allowed to sell counterfeit goods.
The site is operating within the law.

Now if you were sold something counterfeit, Ebay will refund you.
They will also, (in most cases) shutdown the seller of such items.

If you sell counterfeit goods, YOU are breaking the law, to which the site is bound and abides by.

YOU, the seller of counterfeit goods, will then be responsible for your actions.
Not the site.

They can and are allowed to charge a fee, my shopping centre or market pitch is an excellent example of this. If they are not liable, why are Ebay liable?

This question cannot be answered and hasnt been answered yet.

The smoking example is simple -

The sign says No Smoking.

If YOU amoke and burn down the property, YOU are responsible!
#16
h_360
You can't expect ebay to check every single item, they must have at least 1000 new items being listed every few minutes.


So if someone set up a drug den next door to you and charged dealers for using the house as selling ground, you telling me thats okay coz you cant expect the person to check every single dealer coming into the house and selling?....and that the cops wont arrest that person coz they arent responsible for anything to with what happens in their house?

Same principle..... :)
#17
kapows
The law states you are not allowed to sell counterfeit goods.
Your site states if you are to use the site you are not allowed to sell counterfeit goods.
The site is operating within the law.

Now if you were sold something counterfeit, Ebay will refund you.
They will also, (in most cases) shutdown the seller of such items.

If you sell counterfeit goods, YOU are breaking the law, to which the site is bound and abides by.

YOU, the seller of counterfeit goods, will then be responsible for your actions.
Not the site.

They can and are allowed to charge a fee, my shopping centre or market pitch is an excellent example of this. If they are not liable, why are Ebay liable?

This question cannot be answered and hasnt been answered yet.

The smoking example is simple


Then they are guilty of money laundering by keeping that fee....
banned#18
h_360
You can't expect ebay to check every single item, they must have at least 1000 new items being listed every few minutes.
I think the buyer should use common sense, if someone is selling an iphone for £100 its obviously going to be a fake.


This isnt a valid argument.

if you said, they are not responsible for checking items, fair enough. They arent.
banned#19
StevenA2000_uk
Then they are guilty of money laundering by keeping that fee....


They keep the fee for the sale,

But this fee is given as recuperation to the BUYER if the buyer makes a complaint that what they were sold is counterfeit.

But as with the shopping centre, the SELLER should be made liable
#20
kapows
They keep the fee for the sale,

But this fee is given as recuperation to the BUYER if the buyer makes a complaint that what they were sold is counterfeit.

But as with the shopping centre, the SELLER should be made liable


If they keep the fee for the "sale" in which counterfeit goods were sold then its money laundering....especially if they then give that money to the buyer........:)
banned#21
StevenA2000_uk
If they keep the fee for the "sale" in which counterfeit goods were sold then its money laundering....especially if they then give that money to the buyer........:)


But they wont know that the item is a counterfeit. They dont have 'hard goods' which they can check.

This can only be found out if someone reports the seller.
Now, maybe Ebay take the money from the seller which they give back, or it comes out of their own pocket. If it comes out of their own pocket IE the fee, this isnt money laundering in the eyes of the law nor is it illegal...
banned#22
tinkerbell28
Tbh the "point" is kind of moot as whether or not they should or should not be legally liable, they let sellers get away with it, they turn more than a blind eye to a lot of reports of fake goods. So it's more of a case should they be held liable for allowing it and turning a blind eye.


Its hard to prove whether 'they allow it'.

If Ebay show they have staff and systems in place that do whatever they can to control the goods sold, then by some countries law, they can get away with it. (like they have done in Belgium)

What their moral obligations are will not be held up in court if they can prove that their obligations meet the law.

Their morality is only an opinion of the public.
banned#23
Keep in mind, the law have not held Ebay responsible in some countries for some companies,

Yet they have been made responsible in some countries by some companies...

So even the law is split on this one meaning there is no right or wrong, only arguments for and against! LOL!
#24
kapows
LOL!! What are counterfeit blades like?

Atleast you were refunded which is a good thing.

However, their lack of taking action against the seller is confrontable. I guess a suing body can use this to their advantage.


They weren't terribly sharp, let's put it that way.

I'm sending the information about the seller back to proctor and Gamble to use it - as eBay clearly can't be bothered.
#25
kapows
Keep in mind, the law have not held Ebay responsible in some countries for some companies,

Yet they have been made responsible in some countries by some companies...

So even the law is split on this one meaning there is no right or wrong, only arguments for and against! LOL!


Yeah, and the Law worldwide is also split on the death penalty, so your point isn't really valid.

Ebay are frequently flouting the Law in this country as they are knowingly facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods.
banned#26
moob
Yeah, and the Law worldwide is also split on the death penalty, so your point isn't really valid.

Ebay are frequently flouting the Law in this country as they are knowingly facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods.


Well we will see if Ebay are indeed flouting the law in this country because as of yet they havnt been tried.

L'oReal are suing them in this country and the case is still ongoing sa we speak :-D
banned#27
moob
Yeah, and the Law worldwide is also split on the death penalty, so your point isn't really valid.

Ebay are frequently flouting the Law in this country as they are knowingly facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods.


Oh using the death penalty is a poor argument. The death penalty opposed to a trading platform are two totally different arguments.

You can use anything then which is split in one country and not in the other. For example, the use of warez.
#28
kapows
Well we will see if Ebay are indeed flouting the law in this country because as of yet they havnt been tried.

L'oReal are suing them in this country and the case is still ongoing sa we speak :-D


One of many no doubt waiting in the wings...

Fact is, no one likes to take on the big guns, that's the real reason they haven't been held to account to date. It will happen though.
#29
kapows
Oh using the death penalty is a poor argument. The death penalty opposed to a trading platform are two totally different arguments.

You can use anything then which is split in one country and not in the other. For example, the use of warez.


I can use any comparison or analogy I wish.

You're comparing a point of Law between varying nations, as am I, it matters not what kind or branch of Law to which you're referring.
banned#30
They have been sued by some!

See, Loowee Veeton or Christian Dior are not based in this country which is why Ebay were sued in the country in which the handbag companies have offices IE France...

Or so i believe...

We only have licensed retailers who can sell this stuff.

Actually let me see if i can find a UK case which Ebay lost...
banned#31
moob
I can use any comparison or analogy I wish.

You're comparing a point of Law between varying nations, as am I, it matters not what kind or branch of Law to which you're referring.


Lol ok lets not get hostile. :w00t:

The law doesnt only rely on nation, but also what you operate with, how you operate Etc.

Ofcourse it matters what branch of law one refers to!
Thats why we have laws for murder, laws for trading, human rights law, animal welfare law.......
#32
kapows
Lol ok lets not get hostile. :w00t:

The law doesnt only rely on nation, but also what you operate with, how you operate Etc.

Ofcourse it matters what branch of law one refers to!
Thats why we have laws for murder, laws for trading, human rights law, animal welfare law.......


I wasn't being hostile - I can assure you.:thumbsup:

The reason I'm saying it doesn't matter what branch of Law we're comparing is because it is an entirely hypothetical scenario. You mentioned the Law was different in one country to the next with relation to trading law, I mentioned the Law differs in another branch of Law - it's not the branch of Law that's different being my point, merely the country's interpretation and enforcement of it.
banned#33
moob
I wasn't being hostile - I can assure you.:thumbsup:

The reason I'm saying it doesn't matter what branch of Law we're comparing is because it is an entirely hypothetical scenario. You mentioned the Law was different in one country to the next with relation to trading law, I mentioned the Law differs in another branch of Law - it's not the branch of Law that's different being my point, merely the country's interpretation and enforcement of it.


Yeah i think thats what i was attempting to put across, the enforcement of the law in other countries.

So some courts have allowed Ebay to be fined, yet some havnt. I think i know what you mean :-D
banned#34
Ok lets ignore the Ebay thing for a minute...

if i sell fake goods on Gumtree, what would happen to Gumtree?

This isnt a pop at your or anyones argument lol i genuinely want to know what would happen! :)
#35
Yeah, but as I was discussing earlier, and as I thought we were moving in that direction with my personal experience in mind, they are still allowing a seller to sell counterfeit goods despite being told about it and being offered evidence to support my allegation.

Anyhoo, gtg, have fun.
#36
take a look at the case in australia guys if you are interested in this.......they attempted to make paypal the only payment method and lost......bt is majorly used over there same as germany

there are some interesting documents put together with cases against why it is anti competeition......all major banks got involved and american express not to mention a lot of other high profile companies

some seriously interesting legal documents to peruse if interested and also general submissions from jo public

ill try find the link

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/823668/display/submission
banned#37
kapows
Lol! Thanks for the input :-D

They (Ebay) provide a trading platform, but they cannot be held responsible for every trade made on that platform. They clearly state in their rules what is and isnt allowed.

If someone breaks those rules, surely they cant be held responsible for someone elses actions?

Let me use a shopping centre as an example.

The building is owned by you, Steven. You allow the floor to be rented by shops. The shop pays you rent, to sell their goods. You are a platform for trading.

If a customer buys something from a shop, and is not happy with the product, the shop (Seller) is responsible for the handling of the item. Not you.

The owner of the shopping centre is not liable for a shop selling questionnable goods in its shopping centre. You will be protected by law and cannot be sued.

The seller, however, is not protected by law.

The same applies to market stalls, or carboot sales.

Thoughts?


Your example is wrong.
If it can be proven that the owner of the shopping centre knowing allowed counterfiet products to be sold by one of its tenants, they can be charged with conspiracy to defraud

That happened to a car boot owner up here, and I believe he went to jail for it, ill see if i can find a link

EDIT: Wasn't quite correct, but here's the story

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/Car-boot-boss-turned-blind.4855966.jp
banned#38
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:R-AZnbtedyoJ:www.ifpi.co.uk/content/library/Enforcement-Bulletin-34.pdf+car+boot+pitch+owner+jailed+fake+goods&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

The above resonates what you are saying - The Uk article :)


Im gonna find some material as to why Ebay claim they DONT have to do anything
#39
kapows
Keep in mind, the law have not held Ebay responsible in some countries for some companies,

Yet they have been made responsible in some countries by some companies...

So even the law is split on this one meaning there is no right or wrong, only arguments for and against! LOL!

LOL...I aint replying to that nonsense...:p

kapows
Lol ok lets not get hostile. :w00t:

The law doesnt only rely on nation, but also what you operate with, how you operate Etc.

Ofcourse it matters what branch of law one refers to!
Thats why we have laws for murder, laws for trading, human rights law, animal welfare law.......

Not really, Copyright Law is International....

kapows
Ok lets ignore the Ebay thing for a minute...

if i sell fake goods on Gumtree, what would happen to Gumtree?

This isnt a pop at your or anyones argument lol i genuinely want to know what would happen! :)

LOL Lets not ignore the ebay thing for a minute, thats what this thread is about ffs!!"!!!! LOL LOL

:-D
banned#40
StevenA2000_uk
LOL...I aint replying to that nonsense...:p


Not really, Copyright Law is International....


LOL Lets not ignore the ebay thing for a minute, thats what this thread is about ffs!!"!!!! LOL LOL

:-D


LMAO youre picking and choosing what you want to discuss and what you want to ignore!! :cry:

Gumtree is owned by Ebay :p

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