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Could get interesting for App based employers who use self employed drivers, delivery etc.

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A London plumber has won a legal battle for workers’ rights in the latest court ruling affecting freelance employees in the UK. The Court of Appeal in London agreed that Gary Smith, a self-employed… Read More
davewave Avatar
5m, 1w agoPosted 5 months, 1 week ago
A London plumber has won a legal battle for workers’ rights in the latest court ruling affecting freelance employees in the UK.

The Court of Appeal in London agreed that Gary Smith, a self-employed worker with Pimlico Plumbers, was entitled to holiday and sick pay and other benefits even though the court judged he was technically self-employed.

The decision could have an important impact at a time when self-employment is estimated to account for 45 per cent of UK jobs created since the 2007-08 financial crisis.

The judgment follows similar rulings against Uber, the ride-hailing company and CitySprint bike couriers, where freelance employees successfully took actions to secure full workers’ rights.

Mr Smith’s case centred on whether individuals engaged as self-employed contractors should be classed as workers.
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davewave Avatar
5m, 1w agoPosted 5 months, 1 week ago
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#1
The court upheld an earlier ruling by an employment tribunal, dismissing Pimlico Plumbers’ arguments that people like Mr Smith were hired on a self-employed basis, provided their own materials, paid tax as self-employed and were registered for VAT.

Charlie Mullins, founder of the London-based company, said before Friday’s ruling he had been “guided by the Inland Revenue”. But he said: “If Gary was not a self-employed plumber he would not have been paid £80,000 a year. He would have been paid £40,000 a year on a PAYE system.”

Mr Mullins told the BBC Today programme: “All of a sudden he doesn’t want the self-employed basis and wants to have the rights of someone who is an employee, and that was never the case.”

Mr Smith had worked for Pimlico Plumbers for six years. However after suffering a heart attack in 2010, he wanted to cut his hours. The company rejected his request and took back his branded company van.

Mr Mullins welcomed the clarity offered by the courts and said he had already changed the contracts of those who worked on a self-employed basis.

https://www.ft.com/content/259618fe-ef87-11e6-ba01-119a44939bb6
#2
What? The company "took back his branded company van"? Looks like the self employed status was a sham anyway for the convenience of both parties, to an inequitable extent. I wonder how the company would view Mr Smith doing work for his own clients, using their van and tools?
#3
89quidyoucantgowrong
What? The company "took back his branded company van"? Looks like the self employed status was a sham anyway for the convenience of both parties, to an inequitable extent. I wonder how the company would view Mr Smith doing work for his own clients, using their van and tools?
well he wasn't on bad money, doesn't everyone arrange their finances and employment for their own benefit?
#4
davewave
89quidyoucantgowrong
What? The company "took back his branded company van"? Looks like the self employed status was a sham anyway for the convenience of both parties, to an inequitable extent. I wonder how the company would view Mr Smith doing work for his own clients, using their van and tools?
well he wasn't on bad money, doesn't everyone arrange their finances and employment for their own benefit?
There's nothing wrong with arranging your finances and employment any way you like. But if you break the law by doing so, then you suffer the consequences.

This is just another bit of tax avoidance/evasion thrown in with an attempt to get around employment laws. Tough luck on Pimlico Plumbers if they didn't get it right.
#5
RonChew
davewave
89quidyoucantgowrong
What? The company "took back his branded company van"? Looks like the self employed status was a sham anyway for the convenience of both parties, to an inequitable extent. I wonder how the company would view Mr Smith doing work for his own clients, using their van and tools?
well he wasn't on bad money, doesn't everyone arrange their finances and employment for their own benefit?
There's nothing wrong with arranging your finances and employment any way you like. But if you break the law by doing so, then you suffer the consequences.
This is just another bit of tax avoidance/evasion thrown in with an attempt to get around employment laws. Tough luck on Pimlico Plumbers if they didn't get it right.
Indeed theres nothing wrong with arranging your employment for your benefit and as per the result...

The employee won holiday and sickness rights here after arranging his employment this way, he wasn't found to be in the wrong.
1 Like #6
davewave
RonChew
davewave
89quidyoucantgowrong
What? The company "took back his branded company van"? Looks like the self employed status was a sham anyway for the convenience of both parties, to an inequitable extent. I wonder how the company would view Mr Smith doing work for his own clients, using their van and tools?
well he wasn't on bad money, doesn't everyone arrange their finances and employment for their own benefit?
There's nothing wrong with arranging your finances and employment any way you like. But if you break the law by doing so, then you suffer the consequences.
This is just another bit of tax avoidance/evasion thrown in with an attempt to get around employment laws. Tough luck on Pimlico Plumbers if they didn't get it right.
Indeed theres nothing wrong with arranging your employment for your benefit and as per the result...
The employee won holiday and sickness rights here after arranging his employment this way, he wasn't found to be in the wrong.
I think that it was Pimlico Plumbers who got it wrong as they didn't intend to create an employment contract.
#7
RonChew
davewave
RonChew
davewave
89quidyoucantgowrong
What? The company "took back his branded company van"? Looks like the self employed status was a sham anyway for the convenience of both parties, to an inequitable extent. I wonder how the company would view Mr Smith doing work for his own clients, using their van and tools?
well he wasn't on bad money, doesn't everyone arrange their finances and employment for their own benefit?
There's nothing wrong with arranging your finances and employment any way you like. But if you break the law by doing so, then you suffer the consequences.
This is just another bit of tax avoidance/evasion thrown in with an attempt to get around employment laws. Tough luck on Pimlico Plumbers if they didn't get it right.
Indeed theres nothing wrong with arranging your employment for your benefit and as per the result...
The employee won holiday and sickness rights here after arranging his employment this way, he wasn't found to be in the wrong.
I think that it was Pimlico Plumbers who got it wrong as they didn't intend to create an employment contract.
yep.
#8
It's quite strict already, we have to stop some money and pay into CIS even if the contractor does a few jobs for us a year. Daft rule really as I think it should be only if they do more than 50% time with you.
1 Like #9
Also, the benefits of actually being self employed far outstrip a crappy paid holiday !!
2 Likes #10
I'm essentially on this already. The holiday pay (4 weeks and 8 bank holidays) at the same rate as employed staff (basically half my rate) and the £88.45pw sick pay makes so little difference to me it's hardly worth bothering. All that happened it the rates we charge our customers has gone up. It will also probably hold back any pay increases.

If you are good at your job earning money being self employed is not usually an issue. Long-term sick or injured is the major concern. But once you have managed 6 months worth of cover of your finances you are in no worse a position than most employed people.
2 Likes #11
airfix
Also, the benefits of actually being self employed far outstrip a crappy paid holiday !!

If you are truly self employed and your own boss I'd agree. I was a "self employed" courier for yodel, and I can tell you I was not truly self employed. I left, but still hope someone challenges them.
#12
splatsplatsplat
airfix
Also, the benefits of actually being self employed far outstrip a crappy paid holiday !!

If you are truly self employed and your own boss I'd agree. I was a "self employed" courier for yodel, and I can tell you I was not truly self employed. I left, but still hope someone challenges them.


I would agree there how are u self employed I'll a company tell u to work certain hours or the amount of hours. so this company definitely employed the guy. but with other companies it's not so clear cut like uber as they don't tell u wether u have to work or not whether u do 1 hour or 100 hours a week it's upto ok they set the pay rate u charge but that's same with any other normal base.
#13
Charlie Mullins may have become out of touch with workers, if the bloke is ill, he is self employed, as a self employed person, one can do as much work as one is able to do. This is one of the overarching principles of self employed. What is more sinister is that as he hasn't taken it on the chin for a single incident, therefore there may be lots of risk in the way he had modelled his rights exploitation so he fights legally to protect his wealth.
1 Like #14
BTW, if you are self employed you pay just over £100 a year in NI, a shed load less than that as an employee.

Class 2 if your profits are £5,965 or more a year
Class 4 if your profits are £8,060 or more a year

How much you pay? Rate for tax year 2016 to 2017

Class 2 £2.80 a week
Class 4 9% on profits between £8,060 and £43,000
2% on profits over £43,000


Edited By: splender on Feb 11, 2017 13:06: added rates
1 Like #15
The law will change in any case to close any loophole, crucially the driver is that nearly the entire UK salaried workforce could be employed via smartphone apps.
#16
+ class 4,a plumber on £40000 would pay almost £3000 in NI !!

Edited By: ericcollinson on Feb 11, 2017 12:48

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