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Fingerprinting in Schools

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Hello again everyone. I just submitted a story to digg.com regarding the use of fingerprinting in our nation's schools. I have also submitted a petition on the Primeminister's website to outlaw such… Read More
Paladine Avatar
1d, 3m agoPosted 1 decade, 3 months ago
Hello again everyone. I just submitted a story to digg.com regarding the use of fingerprinting in our nation's schools. I have also submitted a petition on the Primeminister's website to outlaw such systems (which is currently awaiting approval by his web team, I will post a link as soon as it is approved).

Please can you all read:

http://www.digg.com/security/Information_Commissioner_Too_Late_to_stop_school_fingerprinting

Also, if you have a Digg username, please Digg the article so it gets more publicity and gets onto the Digg front page. If you don't have a Digg username, please sign up and create one. We simply cannot allow our children's civil liberties and human rights to be dissolved in such a manner.

The Information Commissioner's Office initially gave approval to the schemes and now they claim it is too late to outlaw them because so many schools are using them.

Whats makes this even worse is that schools are using government funds earmarked for IT facilities, to purchase these systems and the companies selling them are linked to companies providing the technologies in place at Guantanamo Bay.

Please act now.

Paladine
Paladine Avatar
1d, 3m agoPosted 1 decade, 3 months ago
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1 Like #1
I think it's a great idea - everybody should give fingerprints & DNA samples at birth, that way, when a crime is committed, it will be easy to trace the culprit. If you dont have anything to hide, why be bothered ??
#2
We had fingerprinting for our library access.. no big deal really, and with ID cards we'll have em taken at 18 anyway.
Fingerprint reliability is poor while under 16 or so anyway.
#3
seancampbell
We had fingerprinting for our library access.. no big deal really, and with ID cards we'll have em taken at 18 anyway.
Fingerprint reliability is poor while under 16 or so anyway.


Seems the conditioning is already working then if you think it is no big deal. As far as I am aware even the police are not permitted to keeps the fingerprints of minors on file.

Paladine
#4
Well it saves carrying credit cards, ID cards, passports, cash, access cards etc.........

I'd be well up for all that ! I even have a fingerprint scanner on my laptop to log into the company network instead of a username & password !!
#5
I'm all for fingerprinting people and ID cards. Great idea.
I had an ID card when I served in the Forces.
#6
Paladine
Seems the conditioning is already working then if you think it is no big deal. As far as I am aware even the police are not permitted to keeps the fingerprints of minors on file.

Paladine


Every one has their own opinions :thumbsup:

Im not sure how i feel about it, i have 3 kids and yes it seems harsh but as was said earlier, if theres nothing to hide why not?

im sure i will change my mind repeatedly after hearing the pro's and con's!

I think many kids will see it as an adventure!

technology will no doubt require it widely eventually anyway
#7
Any of the above got kids (apart from the OP)?

Think the point here is that kids fingerprints are on a database. Maybe okay for adults for driving licences, passport etc but, I'm not sure this is of any benefit to kids.
#8
loupomm
Every one has their own opinions :thumbsup:

Im not sure how i feel about it, i have 3 kids and yes it seems harsh but as was said earlier, if theres nothing to hide why not?

im sure i will change my mind repeatedly after hearing the pro's and con's!

I think many kids will see it as an adventure!


OK so using this argument (if you have nothing to hide...) do you also agree police should be permitted to enter property or search vehicles on a whim? No warrant required, no acountability etc? Surely if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

And what about our children's rights? Where is their choice on this issue? Bearing in mind that the UK recently appeared at the top of the league of most heavily surveyed countries in the world, you think that indicating to the future leaders of the country that a police state is a good and normal thing?

If this doesn't get outlawed, I will be homeschooling our son.

Paladine
#9
pluves1
Any of the above got kids (apart from the OP)?

Think the point here is that kids fingerprints are on a database. Maybe okay for adults for driving licences, passport etc but, I'm not sure this is of any benefit to kids.

yes, two :thumbsup:
#10
Paladine
OK so using this argument (if you have nothing to hide...) do you also agree police should be permitted to enter property or search vehicles on a whim? No warrant required, no acountability etc? Surely if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

And what about our children's rights? Where is their choice on this issue? Bearing in mind that the UK recently appeared at the top of the league of most heavily surveyed countries in the world, you think that indicating to the future leaders of the country that a police state is a good and normal thing?

If this doesn't get outlawed, I will be homeschooling our son.

Paladine


Have you had your Son vaccinated? Did he have a choice?
#11
I had an internal passport (sort of ID card) and was fingerprinted when I was a child (not in this country, obviously). Can't see any problem with both issues.
My only problem with ID cards is that the government want citizens to pay for it. Even in Stalinist Russia IDs were free.
#12
There's a big difference between an identifying detail and searching without warrants.

Can I ask.. Did you let your son have his school taken for the school photograph? or be camcorded in a school play?

If you haven't done anything illegal a fingerprint database serves only to exonerate and exclude you as a suspect, and yes the police can keep fingerprints of convicted minors (PACE 84).
#13
seancampbell
There's a big difference between an identifying detail and searching without warrants.

Can I ask.. Did you let your son have his school taken for the school photograph? or be camcorded in a school play?

If you haven't done anything illegal a fingerprint database serves only to exonerate and exclude you as a suspect, and yes the police can keep fingerprints of convicted minors (PACE 84).


Incorrect, you can't convict a minor, so there is no such thing as convicted minors.

You can detain minors in a detention facility such as Borstal, but their records are expunged when they become adults.

There is no such thing as a child criminal in British Law.

Paladine
#14
pluves1
Any of the above got kids (apart from the OP)?

Think the point here is that kids fingerprints are on a database. Maybe okay for adults for driving licences, passport etc but, I'm not sure this is of any benefit to kids.


i have 3 children, whom i hope will steer clear of trouble as they grow up,im sure they will, maybe this will help deter troublesome teenagers?


paladine
OK so using this argument (if you have nothing to hide...) do you also agree police should be permitted to enter property or search vehicles on a whim? No warrant required, no acountability etc? Surely if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

And what about our children's rights? Where is their choice on this issue? Bearing in mind that the UK recently appeared at the top of the league of most heavily surveyed countries in the world, you think that indicating to the future leaders of the country that a police state is a good and normal thing?

If this doesn't get outlawed, I will be homeschooling our son.

Paladine.


As i said im not entirely sure of my feelings towards this and will open mindedly listen to all views, as for surveilance, it also has its pro's
#15
paladine,
So you're not going to reply to my question??
OK then.
#16
I had my fingerprints taken when I was assaulted and walked into the station with a smashed up face. I totally agree that if you've nothing to hide it should not matter, what I'm opposed to is why I should have mine on file and the low lives I see on a day-to-day basis probably don't.
#17
Paladine
Incorrect, you can't convict a minor, so there is no such thing as convicted minors.

You can detain minors in a detention facility such as Borstal, but their records are expunged when they become adults.

There is no such thing as a child criminal in British Law.

Paladine


Children can be convicted. Criminal age of consent is 10 under rhe Children and Young Persons Act 1933 s. 50 as amended by CYPA 1963 s. 16(1)

doli incapax does not attatch for over 10's unless summary offence.

Conviction will expire but it does with adults.
#18
seancampbell
Children can be convicted. Criminal age of consent is 10 under rhe Children and Young Persons Act 1933 s. 50 as amended by CYPA 1963 s. 16(1)

doli incapax does not attatch for over 10's unless summary offence.

Conviction will expire but it does with adults.


Convictions expire with adults but are never expunged. The remain in the police database forever. Childrens records are expunged completely in accordance to the law.

Also, are you saying children under 10 are not children? As I stated, there is no such thing as a child criminal in the UK, once you reach the age of consent, you are no longer classed as a child in the eyes of the law (which is not the same as being classed as an adult).

Paladine
#19
dinosteveus
paladine,
So you're not going to reply to my question??
OK then.


I didn't see any point in replying to your questions as they are completely irrelevant to the subject being discussed.

Did I have my son vaccinated? Yes I did because unfortunately I can't afford to pay for the seperate vaccinations privately.

Do I allow my son to be photographed in school? No, my son is 1 year old, he doesn't go to school and never will if this practise is not outlawed.

Paladine
#20
Ah but you werent talking about under 10s? or if you were you didnt mention that. I notice you are picking and choosing what to respond to also.

For under 10's fingerprinting is abombinably inaccurate anyway.. thumbprint the best option but who cares if it taken?
Should we get rid of photos on passports?
How about names next eh?
Just in case it breaches my right to privacy?

Honestly get over it.. or emigrate. Or as you said homeschool.

I doubt any child will complain. It's much better than having your id card/library card etc stolen.
#21
Paladine
I didn't see any point in replying to your questions as they are completely irrelevant to the subject being discussed.

Did I have my son vaccinated? Yes I did because unfortunately I can't afford to pay for the seperate vaccinations privately.

Do I allow my son to be photographed in school? No, my son is 1 year old, he doesn't go to school and never will if this practise is not outlawed.

Paladine


Careful! you just might have breached his rights :P
#22
seancampbell
Ah but you werent talking about under 10s? or if you were you didnt mention that. I notice you are picking and choosing what to respond to also.

For under 10's fingerprinting is abombinably inaccurate anyway.. thumbprint the best option but who cares if it taken?
Should we get rid of photos on passports?
How about names next eh?
Just in case it breaches my right to privacy?

Honestly get over it.. or emigrate. Or as you said homeschool.

I doubt any child will complain. It's much better than having your id card/library card etc stolen.


I am not going to get into a flame fest with you. As I stated the police are not permitted to keep the fingerprints of children on record. Obviously that falls in line with statute's definition of the age of consent. But even being 10 years old, children's records are still expunged of all recorded offences committed under the age of 14 (irrespective of the age of consent being 10 years old).

But like I said, I am not going to eat the flame fest cherry you are offering, so you are wasting your time trying to antagonise me.

Paladine
#23
MBeeching
I had my fingerprints taken when I was assaulted and walked into the station with a smashed up face. I totally agree that if you've nothing to hide it should not matter, what I'm opposed to is why I should have mine on file and the low lives I see on a day-to-day basis probably don't.



If all fingerprints were taken, the low - lives would be on record :)

wouldnt this help future criminals be conficted, in a round a bout way making the future safer for our children?
#24
Paladine
I am not going to get into a flame fest with you. As I stated the police are not permitted to keep the fingerprints of children on record. Obviously that falls in line with statute's definition of the age of consent. But even being 10 years old, children's records are still expunged of all recorded offences committed under the age of 14 (irrespective of the age of consent being 10 years old).

But like I said, I am not going to eat the flame fest cherry you are offering, so you are wasting your time trying to antagonise me.

Paladine


as i said in my first post on this thread, everyone has their own opinion, theres never going to be a time where everyone will agree :)
#25
Not a flame, would be idiotic to consider this a personal attack. Just merely a point how far would you take it?
Perhaps you could shave his head in case his hair and thus his dna fall into the wrong hands?
Dress him in rubber to avoid fingerprints anywhere?
Use talcom power to excess to prevent sweating?

We leave dna markers all over the place, and you can't prevent a child doing so unless living in a cave is your idea of living I guess
#26
Paladine
OK so using this argument (if you have nothing to hide...) do you also agree police should be permitted to enter property or search vehicles on a whim? No warrant required, no acountability etc? Surely if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

I would have no problem with this - if the police see fit to search my posessions for any reasons, I wouldn't stop them....as I have nothing to hide !

Now if everybody had your attitude, and Police could not search cars, items, people etc when they thought best too, then the country would be in a pretty bad state, and people such as terrorists, drug dealers etc would no doubt exploit this


Now back to topic.......

By having a central database of everybodies prints & DNA (children included) - it would benefit a whole host of scenario's. For example....

If it was set up that a child with set of fingerprints "A" could only travel abroad with an adult with set of fingerprints "B", then this would in effect, stop people from smuggling children out of the country. As it stands now, if 2 parents break up, there is nothing stopping one of the parents from taking thier child abroad for a new life if they have the childs passport - the fingerprinting on a new database would stop this.

Another example being with car insurance - I hate people who drive around with no insurance. Now if police stopped somebody, instead of going through the whole process of who they are, can they prove it, is it there car, are they insured etc (we've all seen crimstoppers on the tele!!), the police could take a set of prints & immediately see that the car is registered in thier name & is currently insured by the person in question.


The whole thing about kids in schools doing the fingerprints is so that dieticians can assess childrens diets on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. As out country is turning into Obese city, I think the Government has to act now, or we will end up like America. If I had kids, I'd want to know that they were eating properly in school, and not just chips & pizza's everyday, and it would be perfect for say each month, I could get a print out of what my child had actually eaten.

Paladine, I do think you are very naive & old fashioned in your thoughts & opinions - but as stated above, each to thier own.................
#27
ChrisUK
I would have no problem with this - if the police see fit to search my posessions for any reasons, I wouldn't stop them....as I have nothing to hide !

Now if everybody had your attitude, and Police could not search cars, items, people etc when they thought best too, then the country would be in a pretty bad state, and people such as terrorists, drug dealers etc would no doubt exploit this


Now back to topic.......

By having a central database of everybodies prints & DNA (children included) - it would benefit a whole host of scenario's. For example....

If it was set up that a child with set of fingerprints "A" could only travel abroad with an adult with set of fingerprints "B", then this would in effect, stop people from smuggling children out of the country. As it stands now, if 2 parents break up, there is nothing stopping one of the parents from taking thier child abroad for a new life if they have the childs passport - the fingerprinting on a new database would stop this.

Another example being with car insurance - I hate people who drive around with no insurance. Now if police stopped somebody, instead of going through the whole process of who they are, can they prove it, is it there car, are they insured etc (we've all seen crimstoppers on the tele!!), the police could take a set of prints & immediately see that the car is registered in thier name & is currently insured by the person in question.


The whole thing about kids in schools doing the fingerprints is so that dieticians can assess childrens diets on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. As out country is turning into Obese city, I think the Government has to act now, or we will end up like America. If I had kids, I'd want to know that they were eating properly in school, and not just chips & pizza's everyday, and it would be perfect for say each month, I could get a print out of what my child had actually eaten.

Paladine, I do think you are very naive & old fashioned in your thoughts & opinions - but as stated above, each to thier own.................


Well apart from all the stuff you posted about the police state you would apprantly love to live in (which is actually pretty much all against international, european and british law) your last comment about dietry data is absolute rubbish.

This fingerprinting has absolutely nothing to do with childrens diets and nutrition and I fail to see where you drew that conclusion from.

Naiive I certainly am not, if you think a police state is the perfect society it is you who is naiive.

Paladine
#28
ChrisUK
I would have no problem with this - if the police see fit to search my posessions for any reasons, I wouldn't stop them....as I have nothing to hide !

Now if everybody had your attitude, and Police could not search cars, items, people etc when they thought best too, then the country would be in a pretty bad state, and people such as terrorists, drug dealers etc would no doubt exploit this


Now back to topic.......

By having a central database of everybodies prints & DNA (children included) - it would benefit a whole host of scenario's. For example....

If it was set up that a child with set of fingerprints "A" could only travel abroad with an adult with set of fingerprints "B", then this would in effect, stop people from smuggling children out of the country. As it stands now, if 2 parents break up, there is nothing stopping one of the parents from taking thier child abroad for a new life if they have the childs passport - the fingerprinting on a new database would stop this.

Another example being with car insurance - I hate people who drive around with no insurance. Now if police stopped somebody, instead of going through the whole process of who they are, can they prove it, is it there car, are they insured etc (we've all seen crimstoppers on the tele!!), the police could take a set of prints & immediately see that the car is registered in thier name & is currently insured by the person in question.


The whole thing about kids in schools doing the fingerprints is so that dieticians can assess childrens diets on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. As out country is turning into Obese city, I think the Government has to act now, or we will end up like America. If I had kids, I'd want to know that they were eating properly in school, and not just chips & pizza's everyday, and it would be perfect for say each month, I could get a print out of what my child had actually eaten.

Paladine, I do think you are very naive & old fashioned in your thoughts & opinions - but as stated above, each to thier own.................


my son, who has just started secondary school has a swipe card for the canteen, which i can access statement to, with a full rundown of what he has bought, its great, however a few of his friends have already lost theirs, costing £5 to replace :w00t: fingerprinting would perhaps replace these?
#29
Id be happy for my 3 children to have their fingerprints taken and also DNA samples as there are many more benefits to dissadvantages of having official identification.

Im happy to do this myself also as I feel many people take advantage of the lack situation on identification and I would personally like any Id cards which would make my life more secure and easier.

The whole attitude of the youth of today has changed so much in the last few years.
I am constantly having property damaged by youths feeling they can do what they like and speak to ypu how they like.

If this is the way forward to gettimng them to realise that sometime someone will catch up to them doing no good or being able to prove their innocence....im for it...

Kim
#30
Paladine
This fingerprinting has absolutely nothing to do with childrens diets and nutrition and I fail to see where you drew that conclusion from.


Erm.....this IS the whole point. Why dont you get off your high horse & do some research before starting a new thread about DISCUSSING this topic, and throwing everyone's opinion back at them.

Here are some quick reference to get you started....

http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle.aspx?sectionid=73&articleid=1967323

http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle.aspx?sectionid=73&articleid=1964692

http://www.wigantoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?sectionid=66&articleid=1963632


ps - your not really a fat kid who doesn't want your parents seeing how many choccy bars you eat are you ???
#31
Seems there is even more to this situation than even I first realised. There is a followup story about this today with more details highlighting my own concerns.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/18/ltka_campaign/

(And by the way, if you don't bother to read it, don't expect a response to your replies.)

Do you all think this is such a great idea now?

Paladine
#32
I think that some pressure groups clearly got too much time in their hands or just want to gain cheap publicity. Or maybe both.
And yes, I've read the article and my opinion hasn't been changed.

BTW, you never replied to me before, so I don't expect you to reply now :)
#33
Kommunist
I think that some pressure groups clearly got too much time in their hands or just want to gain cheap publicity. Or maybe both.
And yes, I've read the article and my opinion hasn't been changed.

BTW, you never replied to me before, so I don't expect you to reply now :)


I never saw any questions off you in the first reply, I wasn't aware you were looking for a reply, it looked like you were just stating your opinion on it. So I wasn't trying to be rude and ignore you, I simply didn't realise you were looking for a reply.

But we are not just talking about pressure groups, we are talking about cross party agreement in the House of Commons, furthermore, it raises the point that legal action is viable, so it is not just a social or moral issue, it is also a legal one.

Paladine
#34
Oh, sorry I probably needed to state explicitly that I was expecting you to reply. My bad.

From that article I couldn't see anything about x-party agreement. It is about support of campaing by MPs from different parties. If, say, 1 Conservative MP is supporting the issue, it doesn't automatically mean that the whole party is of the same opinion. At least that's how I see it.
As to legal action, it is always possible. Say, you don't like my avatar or nickname. You can file a legal complaint against me on whatever ground. Whether it is accepted by court or, even more important, decided in your favour is questionable.
So, IMO the whole issue is a cheap PR stunt.
#35
Kommunist
Oh, sorry I probably needed to state explicitly that I was expecting you to reply. My bad.

From that article I couldn't see anything about x-party agreement. It is about support of campaing by MPs from different parties. If, say, 1 Conservative MP is supporting the issue, it doesn't automatically mean that the whole party is of the same opinion. At least that's how I see it.
As to legal action, it is always possible. Say, you don't like my avatar or nickname. You can file a legal complaint against me on whatever ground. Whether it is accepted by court or, even more important, decided in your favour is questionable.
So, IMO the whole issue is a cheap PR stunt.


Actually on the legal side of things, it -is- against the law to do this without parental consent. Parents are the legal guardian and consent is required by law for any form of data gathering/retention (which fingerprinting would fall under) involving minors.

Paladine
#36
OK, let's talk about law. Can you please provide reference to any part of a Law that specifically stating that collecting biometric information (such as fingerprinting, DNA, other biometrics) without parent/guardian consent is illegal?
I thought that in this country anything which is NOT specificallu forbidden by laws is legal and allowed?
#37
Kommunist
OK, let's talk about law. Can you please provide reference to any part of a Law that specifically stating that collecting biometric information (such as fingerprinting, DNA, other biometrics) without parent/guardian consent is illegal?
I thought that in this country anything which is NOT specificallu forbidden by laws is legal and allowed?


Data Protection Act, Human Rights Act and the Childrens Act all specifically state that consent is required and furthermore, in the situation of a minor that consent must be sought from the parents or legal guardians (unless it can be deemed that the child in question has a "mature" understanding of the data being gathered and the reasons for it.).

Would you care to show me a 5 year old or even a 10 year old who has a "mature" understanding of their human rights and civil liberties?

No I didn't think so.

And no, I am not going to go trawling through the legislation to quote it, I have provided you with the relevant legislation, I suggest you go and look it up.

Paladine

[Edit] Oh I have found another one too if you are interested: Article 16 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.
#38
I am sorry, you stated that the Law implies specific restrictions on government institutions. It means that fingerprinting is illegal. Now all I am asking you is to prove it.
Remember, YOU made the statement, not me. Therefore, the onus to prove it is on you.
Not guilty until charged, does it mean anything to you?

As to Human Rights and whole thing - I believe that modern society is too obsessed with rights and completely forgot about responsibilities. I will be celebrating the day when this country would pull out of the European Human Rights agreement.
#39
Kommunist
I am sorry, you stated that the Law implies specific restrictions on government institutions. It means that fingerprinting is illegal. Now all I am asking you is to prove it.
Remember, YOU made the statement, not me. Therefore, the onus to prove it is on you.
Not guilty until charged, does it mean anything to you?

As to Human Rights and whole thing - I believe that modern society is too obsessed with rights and completely forgot about responsibilities. I will be celebrating the day when this country would pull out of the European Human Rights agreement.


I have given you the relevant laws, I see no point in wasting any more of my time on you.

Paladine
#40
Oh, I see. Such a smart and detailed response. Pretty much what I expected.
In line with your response I claim that there is nothing in the Law which is preventing officials from fingerprinting minors. You can find the relevant Law on the web.
Amen to that.

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