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Going up against T-Mobile Got a chance? CISAS etc?

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See point 1 as i wanted to format
spritey Avatar
7y, 8m agoPosted 7 years, 8 months ago
See point 1 as i wanted to format
spritey Avatar
7y, 8m agoPosted 7 years, 8 months ago
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#1
Basically over the last 2-3 weeks ive been in argument with T-Mobile regarding the new T&C change with EU roaming charges going up.. Only signed upto T-Mobile on 15th of June - so obviously miffed prices went up 2 weeks later. My family live abroad and i go abroad allot due to work.. So it's a big deal for me.

Cut a long story short I have stated the points i'm arguing a cancelation of contract below. POINT 1 / POINT 2

Anyway theyve refused to give me a DEADLOCK letter as we can't come to agreement. So 10 weeks to wait till i can contact CISAS. I want my contract cancel without charge. They've so far mislead me, never notified me and raising prices without my consent.

Anyone used them before, do they actually get the job done. As ive never used them before.

Also what are OFCOM like, do they take action aswell? Do i have a chance with this?


POINT 1:


I was informed due to 7.1.2 of your terms of conditions, youre able to increase your Additional Services without the 2.11.2 of your terms and conditions applying.
However within your terms and condition it clearly states it does apply:

2.12.6. We can increase the Charge for that Additional Service
as set out in point 7.1.4. If that happens, points 7.2.3.2
and 7.2.3.3 will also apply to You, so that You can give
Us notice to terminate that Additional Service with a
minimum period without paying the Charge described
in point 2.12.5 above. However, if You also give Us
notice to terminate this entire Agreement as described
in point 7.2.1, then You may have to pay a Cancellation
Charge; and

So the above relates to back to a term and condition that points an increase in price plan charge:

7.1.4. We can increase any Price Plan Charge. We will give You
Written Notice 30 days before We do so. The change will
then apply to You once that notice has run out.

2.12.6 also points towards the below terms and conditions:

7.2.3. A Cancellation Charge wont apply if You are within the
Minimum Term and:
7.2.3.2. You are a Consumer and the change that We
gave You Written Notice of in point 2.11.2 or
7.1.4 above is of material detriment to You and
You give Us notice to immediately cancel this
Agreement before the change takes effect; or
7.2.3.3. The change that We gave You Written Notice of in
point 7.1.4 is an increase in Your Price Plan
Charge (as a percentage) higher than any
increase in the Retail Price Index (also calculated
as a percentage) for the 12 months before the
month in which We send You Written Notice and
You give Us notice to immediately cancel this
Agreement before the change takes effect.

Which point back to 2.11.2 and actually refer to my right to cancel without cancellation charge within the minimum term.

2.11.2. If You are a Consumer and the change is of material
detriment to You, We will send You Written Notice 30 days
before the terms and conditions are due to change. The
new terms and conditions will apply to You once that
notice has run out, unless You terminate Your Agreement
with Us within that notice period. If You do this You wont
have to pay any Cancellation Charge that would otherwise

Obviously i feel the increase of the roaming charges is of material detriment to me. As i frequent go abroad. Here it is again as part of EU law.

In accordance with EU law, i do not agree to the change of this term and condition so should be able to cancel my contract without cancelation charge. As stated below:

Based on DIRECTIVE 2002/22/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 7 March 2002 on universal service and users' rights relating to electronic communications networks and
services (Universal Service Directive)
Article 20.4:
Subscribers shall have a right to withdraw from their
contracts without penalty upon notice of proposed
modifications in the contractual conditions. Subscribers shall
be given adequate notice, not shorter than one month, ahead of any
such modifications and shall be informed at the same
time of their right to withdraw, without penalty, from such
contracts, if they do not accept the new conditions.


POINT 2:


I was notified by text message regarding the changes in roaming charges on the 30th June 2009:

From 1st July were making changes to our roaming charges & on 1st of Aug were changing out terms & conditions to make things even clearer. t-mobile.co.uk/EUTerms

If you goto t-mobile.co.uk/EUTerms and click the Roaming Prices Changes it says:

This page outlines new EU roaming rates that will apply for all pay monthly, U-Fix and business customers (excluding corporates) from 29 June 2009.

Also within the price breakdown it states: Cost from 29 June 2009 (inv VAT)

As per your terms and conditions relating to change or increases in Additional Services, below is the instance:

T&C 7.1.2:
We can suspend, change, increase the price of or
withdraw part or all of the Additional Services on giving
active users of the Additional Service a reasonable period
of Written Notice. The change will then apply to You once
that notice has run out.
7.1.3. We can suspend, change or withdraw

As it points out, you must give me a reasonable period of Written Notice

Not only was i not given any notice of the price changes, with the text message being sent to me on the 30th of June 2009 and the price changes taking effect on the 29th of June 2009. But the text message itself was also misleading by suggesting the increase to roaming charges were to take place on the 1st of July 2009.

This has results in T-Mobile violating the terms and conditions set out in the contract.

I have kept the text message on my phone as evidence to the fact.

Not sure how they afford themselves the right to cancel my agreement if i break any important T&C and not give me the same right.

Our immediate termination rights

7.3.1. We can terminate this Agreement immediately and You
must pay Us everything that You owe, including any
Cancellation Charge, if any of the following happen:
7.3.1.1. You break an important condition of this
Agreement or a number of less important
conditions;
#2
OP, why are you actually wanting to leave T-Mobile in the first place? Its not because of the roaming charges etc. Its obviously because you want to get out of the contract early. It seems to me that you are acting in desperation trying to go up again t-mobile with this as they reserve the right to change their T&Cs - plus I agree with previous poster, please send link to their T&Cs.

However.....I have known people to get out of their contract due to previous changes in T&Cs with other networks so I am sure you can.
#3
mhh1981
OP, why are you actually wanting to leave T-Mobile in the first place? Its not because of the roaming charges etc. Its obviously because you want to get out of the contract early. It seems to me that you are acting in desperation trying to go up again t-mobile with this as they reserve the right to change their T&Cs - plus I agree with previous poster, please send link to their T&Cs.

However.....I have known people to get out of their contract due to previous changes in T&Cs with other networks so I am sure you can.


Majority of my family live in France.

Company i work for, the HQ is based in germany and we can get sent all around the EU.

So for me, a 6p increase per minute.. Can have a pretty big affect on me, my usual £180 bill when i go out to the EU for a month could go up by about £30-40. Even with a booster.

Not to mention the fact i take great exception to signing up to a contract, then after 2 weeks them raising the price. If i'd been a customer for 6-9 months, i wouldn't be kicking up this fuss.. But 2 weeks..

They can't just reserve the right to change their T&C, hense the reason for pointing out the EU law. If they do so the consumer also has rights.. Otherwise they could do whatever the hell they wanted.

http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/EUterms for new terms. (they are actually linked in the first post and i dont see anyone else asking to link)
#4
Did you buy over the phone or from a store because if it was over the phone you can return it.

Can you not negotiate a fee with them for the EU calls bolton? That would save you going through the courts and being angry ;-)

spritey
Majority of my family live in France.

Company i work for, the HQ is based in germany and we can get sent all around the EU.

So for me, a 6p increase per minute.. Can have a pretty big affect on me, my usual £180 bill when i go out to the EU for a month could go up by about £30-40. Even with a booster.

Not to mention the fact i take great exception to signing up to a contract, then after 2 weeks them raising the price. If i'd been a customer for 6-9 months, i wouldn't be kicking up this fuss.. But 2 weeks..

They can't just reserve the right to change their T&C, hense the reason for pointing out the EU law. If they do so the consumer also has rights.. Otherwise they could do whatever the hell they wanted.

http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/EUterms for new terms. (they are actually linked in the first post and i dont see anyone else asking to link)
#5
mhh1981
Did you buy over the phone or from a store because if it was over the phone you can return it.

Can you not negotiate a fee with them for the EU calls bolton? That would save you going through the courts and being angry ;-)


I gave them the option of not applying the increase in roaming fee's to me, they refused. Said it would be to much work to calculate a reduction each month. Also won't give me a free bolt on.

Nope - i ordered through a third party store. Who's return period is 7 days, so i'm screwed.

It won't goto court in that sense.. It'll go through CISAS first, which is free. But i wondered if anyone had experience with that side or have a legal head on them.

If they don't resolve it in - 10-16 weeks from now.. I could cancel my contract - pay the early termination fee of £500 - then take them to small claims to get it back. But thats my last resort after CISAS.
banned#6
yes i did find the link in the first post, but i had to read it all and like i said it is a mess.

you cant be very smart if you use your mobile like that. i mean, it would be cheaper if you rang your family with a calling card from a landline assuming you have a landline.

it would also be cheaper for you to buy a sim form wherever you are in the EU, top it up and call people from that. sure let them ring you on your mobile or whatever but dont use that T-Mobile sim to call back.

are you sure the company cant pay for your mobile charges? unless all you use it for are personal calls?

give us the full story:

did you request to talk to a manager? (not their team leader, but the team leaders manager)

did you tell them you are willing to pay for the first two weeks of your contract but you are not going to use the sim anymore nor pay for it?

did you tell them that you work abroad and this increase will cause you issues?

to be honest they cant make you wait for ten months, if their terms and conditions state (im not going to read them which is why i deleted my comment) that you can cancel the contract if they make changes which affect you then they should allow you to cancel.

ring them again, tell them to bar the sim because you wont be using it, ring them and talk to the manager, tell the manager you can send proof that you work abroad and that this increase will affect your bill.

to be honest i have to say part of it is your fault too. i mean, 160 pound bill? using your uk contract mobile abroad? you should have done your research into what options you have and gone for the cheapest it would have saved you alot of hassle.

also, you really need to talk to someone high up, like a manager, dont settle for a supervisor but dont get all angry and iritable on the phone either.

and get a complaints address or number aswell. tell them to escalate the call.

dont quote terms and conditions, just tell them they have broken their terms and conditions and make them read it.
#7
kapows
yes i did find the link in the first post, but i had to read it all and like i said it is a mess.

you cant be very smart if you use your mobile like that. i mean, it would be cheaper if you rang your family with a calling card from a landline assuming you have a landline.

it would also be cheaper for you to buy a sim form wherever you are in the EU, top it up and call people from that. sure let them ring you on your mobile or whatever but dont use that T-Mobile sim to call back.

are you sure the company cant pay for your mobile charges? unless all you use it for are personal calls?

give us the full story:

did you request to talk to a manager? (not their team leader, but the team leaders manager)

did you tell them you are willing to pay for the first two weeks of your contract but you are not going to use the sim anymore nor pay for it?

did you tell them that you work abroad and this increase will cause you issues?

to be honest they cant make you wait for ten months, if their terms and conditions state (im not going to read them which is why i deleted my comment) that you can cancel the contract if they make changes which affect you then they should allow you to cancel.

ring them again, tell them to bar the sim because you wont be using it, ring them and talk to the manager, tell the manager you can send proof that you work abroad and that this increase will affect your bill.

to be honest i have to say part of it is your fault too. i mean, 160 pound bill? using your uk contract mobile abroad? you should have done your research into what options you have and gone for the cheapest it would have saved you alot of hassle.

also, you really need to talk to someone high up, like a manager, dont settle for a supervisor but dont get all angry and iritable on the phone either.

and get a complaints address or number aswell. tell them to escalate the call.

dont quote terms and conditions, just tell them they have broken their terms and conditions and make them read it.


It's hardly a mess - having to quote terms and conditions will always look messy.

Just to cover some of your other points though

- Yes i spoke to a manager - it's been 2-3 weeks. I haven't asked for advise on T-Mobile. I've gone all the way through to complaints department and been liaising with the legal team. That's the top of the tree for this type of thing. Hence the reason why im talking about CISAS and talking about DEADLOCK letters. Despite multi-able emails and discussion they've refused to cancel without cancelation fee. Even after acknowledging they had up'd the price wouldn't notifying me, which violated their own T&C.

- I told them i work abroad yes, put it in writing. As i said this has all be covered.

- I've never said 10 months.. (perhaps the posts isn't that messy, you just can't read :P) 10 weeks until i can make a claim with CISAS roughly. You have to wait 12 weeks after initial complaint or get a DEADLOCK letter

- The easiest way for me to call people from the EU, while i'm out and about all over france visiting family or abroad for work (all over EU). Is to use my mobile. Boosters yes help, but still don't reach my needs. It is however slightly beside the point, i feel as a consumer after agreeing an 18 month contract - after only 2 weeks for them to increase the price is ridicules. I should of been informed of it at the point of sale - i wasn't. Many other customers have fallen into this trap, they'll sign you up all the way to the day before, and just notify you afterwards and just make you jump through all these hoops.

- I was required to quote the T&C i feel they violated to the legal team.
#8
Not a chance under the T&C's, it been gone over on other sites.

But as mhh1981 say, people have had the network release them, but this isn't due to changes under the T&C's although it might appear to be.
The network will look at your acc notepad and if you've been a right pain and called every week whining about something or other they reckon their better of with out you and terminate. . . But it doesn't look like you've been with them long enough. . .
banned#9
spritey
It's hardly a mess - having to quote terms and conditions will always look messy.

Just to cover some of your other points though

- Yes i spoke to a manager - it's been 2-3 weeks. I haven't asked for advise on T-Mobile. I've gone all the way through to complaints department and been liaising with the legal team. That's the top of the tree for this type of thing. Hence the reason why im talking about CISAS and talking about DEADLOCK letters. Despite multi-able emails and discussion they've refused to cancel without cancelation fee. Even after acknowledging they had up'd the price wouldn't notifying me, which violated their own T&C.

- I told them i work abroad yes, put it in writing. As i said this has all be covered.

- I've never said 10 months.. (perhaps the posts isn't that messy, you just can't read :P) 10 weeks until i can make a claim with CISAS roughly. You have to wait 12 weeks after initial complaint or get a DEADLOCK letter

- The easiest way for me to call people from the EU, while i'm out and about all over france visiting family or abroad for work (all over EU). Is to use my mobile. Boosters yes help, but still don't reach my needs. It is however slightly beside the point, i feel as a consumer after agreeing an 18 month contract - after only 2 weeks for them to increase the price is ridicules. I should of been informed of it at the point of sale - i wasn't. Many other customers have fallen into this trap, they'll sign you up all the way to the day before, and just notify you afterwards and just make you jump through all these hoops.

- I was required to quote the T&C i feel they violated to the legal team.


ok lol you have a point 10 weeks not months im not paying attention.

the easiest and cheapest is to buy a sim abroad

there are many things they dont have to tell you at the point of sale. believe me you will be shocked. you should ask them they might even tell you what they can leave out. they could have probably even left out the whole expenses going up.

im sure if you did some research you would have (not "would of, should of, could of" its a gripe i have to mention this wherever i post) known that the prices were going up and you could have reconsidered a contract with them.

still, making you wait is a long time. get ofcom on it too. tell them 10 weeks is too long you want it resolved now. surely they cant make you wait 2+ months?

i suggest you stop using the sim, bar the phone, not pay, let it affect your credit rating, then they will have to clear your credit rating, pay you back for any troubles and it will cause them more hassle than you

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