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Grenfell Tower fire - If you would like to help.

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Over one hundred families have lost their homes and all their possessions - many have lost much much more. If you're able to help with donations, please see this message from the Kensington and Chel… Read More
cgsrimi Avatar
1w, 1d agoPosted 1 week, 1 day ago
Over one hundred families have lost their homes and all their possessions - many have lost much much more.

If you're able to help with donations, please see this message from the Kensington and Chelsea Foundation.

"We are all devastated by the news of the terrible fire at Grenfell Tower and our thoughts are with everyone affected.

We have launched an appeal for funding with support from London Funders and the London Emergency Trust Fund.

To donate please click here (https://thekandcfoundation.com/donate/) and when you have indicated the amount you wish to donate, tick the box Grenfell Tower Appeal. Every penny we raise will go to those affected.
cgsrimi Avatar
1w, 1d agoPosted 1 week, 1 day ago
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(2)
10 Likes
Whats it for? I thought they were saying stop giving donations we have enough stuff, and that lousy council should be rehoming everyone don't let the richest council in the country off the hook for accommodation costs.
8 Likes
Without wishing to sound controversial, this is exactly the kind of thing that our aid budget should go on. It should be renamed the aid budget, and used nationally and internationally.

Disasters - home and abroad - should be covered. There should be no need to fundraise for this kind of thing, the money should be there already through general taxation exactly for this situation. And of course if there aren't these disasters at home, the rest of the 0.7% of GDP should help others abroad. But to have to fundraise for these people is a really sad state of affairs.

Edited By: Firefly1 on Jun 16, 2017 14:53: Jun 16, 2017 14:53

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10 Likes #1
Whats it for? I thought they were saying stop giving donations we have enough stuff, and that lousy council should be rehoming everyone don't let the richest council in the country off the hook for accommodation costs.
2 Likes #2
Thread reported for Moderator review of "Charity thread" postings.
1 Like #3
Error440
Whats it for? I thought they were saying stop giving donations we have enough stuff, and that lousy council should be rehoming everyone don't let the richest council in the country off the hook for accommodation costs.


It's not an appeal for stuff, it's an appeal for money. The Foundation works for charities in the area and I suspect the funds will be distributed to those charities who are helping those affected.

The Council has a duty to re-home, but it will take time. The donations will be used to support immediate needs. Imagine losing all your possessions, including your bank details and ID, how difficult would it be to get your hands on cash for essentials?
4 Likes #4
What a situation we are in - a government who let such a living nightmare happen and then the public who are needed to literally save those affected... it beggars belief.

Edited By: JumpMan1980 on Jun 16, 2017 14:42: Jun 16, 2017 14:42
#5
This is most definitely a worthwhile cause. I cannot begin to imagine what those who have survived will do. Where do they start? I will be helping to raise funds for them too and I know alot of people who will. These people genuinely need our help financially, they have nothing left , they have to start again from scratch.
8 Likes #6
Without wishing to sound controversial, this is exactly the kind of thing that our aid budget should go on. It should be renamed the aid budget, and used nationally and internationally.

Disasters - home and abroad - should be covered. There should be no need to fundraise for this kind of thing, the money should be there already through general taxation exactly for this situation. And of course if there aren't these disasters at home, the rest of the 0.7% of GDP should help others abroad. But to have to fundraise for these people is a really sad state of affairs.

Edited By: Firefly1 on Jun 16, 2017 14:53: Jun 16, 2017 14:53
#7
JumpMan1980
What a situation we are in - a government who let such a living nightmare happen and then the public who are needed to literally save those affected... it beggars belief.
K&C council are working on rehoming people from current temporary accommodation - please don't spread politically biased rumours.
1 Like #8
davewave
JumpMan1980
What a situation we are in - a government who let such a living nightmare happen and then the public who are needed to literally save those affected... it beggars belief.
K&C council are working on rehoming people from current temporary accommodation - please don't spread politically biased rumours.

And what about the first part of that statement? Or are we going to split hairs about what is the responsibly of the government and the council.
1 Like #9
davewave
JumpMan1980
What a situation we are in - a government who let such a living nightmare happen and then the public who are needed to literally save those affected... it beggars belief.
K&C council are working on rehoming people from current temporary accommodation - please don't spread politically biased rumours.

Rumour? If K & C council had ensured the tower was safe, there would not be a problem. You do not agree?

Edited By: JumpMan1980 on Jun 16, 2017 15:26
1 Like #10
My immediate thought (4am, day of the fire) when News reports were commenting on how quickly the building went up in flames was the cladding - because (and I am from South Wales) a friend of mine lives in a small block of 14 flats and his housing authority has done the exact same thing - coated the whole thing in cladding - I saw them being fitted one day and remember thinking how cheap and polysterene-esque they looked. Friend has already had it confirmed his authority opted for the cheaper non fire safe cladding too. It is disgusting how human beings lose their sense of humanity when they are in work mode and tasked with cutting costs. People died because of such stupidity. -->> oh and as a private tennant, my friend had to pay a contribution toward the work, what a joke!


Edited By: JumpMan1980 on Jun 16, 2017 16:04: ?
1 Like #11
The road to justice (legal) is very long, possibly 2-5 years or more likely more by the time you get to Court of Appeal
One part that they could be helped is to add professional volunteering skills into their Grenfell class action group. Any one with web site, PHP programming, database SQL, file and contents management, membership management, writing skills, help victims to build a loss list, attend public hearing, inquiries and court hearings and make notes etc...all help great deal as indeed things like bereavement, counselling. Professionals or ex- Professionals who could act an intermediaries between victims and lawyers and officials. It would be very hard to deal with the council processes and ordinary people would be pushed to go round in circles.
After the initial relief aid, food and blankets, and then temp housing, the most valuable volunteering help that victims need is how to deal with the big bureacracy in order to get justice and to get a more permanent home in the same borough.
.
There needs to be very tight control of core membership in this action group in case people with vested interests pay agents to penetrate your action group.


Edited By: splender on Jun 16, 2017 15:51: added text
#12
fanpages
Thread reported for Moderator review of "Charity thread" postings.


I trust the little tingly feeling you got down below was worth it.
4 Likes #13
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.

Edited By: splender on Jun 16, 2017 15:56
#14
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY.

Agreed, it must be an inquest and not an inquiry.
#15
JumpMan1980
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY.
Agreed, it must be an inquest and not an inquiry.
These are inquests:Hillsborough, Zeebrugger Ferry capsize, 7/7, Marchioness....
any leader saying a public inquiry is needed , why inquiry?
#16
splender
JumpMan1980
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY.
Agreed, it must be an inquest and not an inquiry.
These are inquests:Hillsborough, Zeebrugger Ferry capsize, 7/7, Marchioness....
any leader saying a public inquiry is needed , why inquiry?

For control. It is an act of fear not love. No surprise, sickening.
2 Likes #17
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.


You don't have a clue. Inquests are held into EVERY unexplained death. They are typically conducted by a Coroner who is an independent member of the Judiciary and are very limited in the questions they can ask and the evidence they can call - who was the deceased, where did they die, when did they die and what was the cause of death. There will be an inquest for every person who died in the fire.

FYI, an inquest was opened and adjourned yesterday for the Manchester bomber.
#18
JumpMan1980
Rumour? If K & C council had ensured the tower was safe, there would not be a problem. You do not agree?

No according to regulations the refurb was correctly carried out. The regs were clearly insufficient in hindsight.
#19
davewave
JumpMan1980
Rumour? If K & C council had ensured the tower was safe, there would not be a problem. You do not agree?
No according to regulations the refurb was correctly carried out. The regs were clearly insufficient in hindsight.

oh sure they ticked boxes, now they are ticking off names of the deceased. the regs are out of date and allowed corners to be cut. it would seem, now at least, common sense to ensure a material to be used in literally covering a building is fire safe...
#20
JumpMan1980
oh sure they ticked boxes, now they are ticking off names of the deceased. the regs are out of date and allowed corners to be cut. it would seem, now at least, common sense to ensure a material to be used in literally covering a building is fire safe...

Agreed but the politicians shouting about the regs now are only shouting about it now, just to get headlines, they weren't concerned in the months and years proceeding.

They are just trying to look caring in hindsight, this isnt just a K&C issue either.

Which other councils have cladded buildings with flammable cladding - that's a far more important question - there are people at risk right now.

I am curious how many of the office-to-residential cheapo conversions which sport cladding have also been done with the cheaper flammable cladding - the councils should review these also.
#21
19DembaBa19
TRUTH ABOUT GRENFELL
TOWER
1. The tower is situated in one of the most expensive places in the world. The rich residents were complaining of "eye-sore" by looking at the horrendous building
2. They decided to refurbish the outside of the building with cheap materials that easily catch fire costing £8 million
3. But they forgot to replace the old lift which would have cost 60 grand
4. The fire brigade came few days before the fire to advice a few residents on fire emergency
5. When the fire started the victims wanted to jump out of the building onto mattresses but police did not allow it. They told residents to stay indoors and firefighters will rescue them
6. Fire brigade came 40 mins late
#theresamay We do not need an inquiry. An inquiry did not serve justice for Hillsborough's disaster and Iraq war.
This is an act of corporate manslaughter. We need justice. https://youtu.be/l1Y9pmHWYYg
FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD

Firefighters were there within 6 minutes. I think to even suggest that they are somehow to blame is incredibly crass. These guys entered that building, going as high as the 9th floor, some without breathing apparatus, to save those that were unable to make it out themselves.

They witnessed horrors that you nor I could ever imagine, horrors that will live with them forever. They put themselves at risk, and in doing so saved many lives.

Some of them left that building with their own clothes smoking and melting.

Whilst there may be some substance to some of your post, I find the bit about fire fighters to be hugely insensitive, not to mention distruthful - and it discredits everything else you've written.

And as for an enquiry - of course we need one. Lessons need to be learnt, and in order to learn those lessons the full facts need to be known. It probably is a case of corporate manslaughter, but that doesn't mean there is no other lesson that can be taken away from this.
#22
miikeyblue
19DembaBa19
TRUTH ABOUT GRENFELL
TOWER
1. The tower is situated in one of the most expensive places in the world. The rich residents were complaining of "eye-sore" by looking at the horrendous building
2. They decided to refurbish the outside of the building with cheap materials that easily catch fire costing £8 million
3. But they forgot to replace the old lift which would have cost 60 grand
4. The fire brigade came few days before the fire to advice a few residents on fire emergency
5. When the fire started the victims wanted to jump out of the building onto mattresses but police did not allow it. They told residents to stay indoors and firefighters will rescue them
6. Fire brigade came 40 mins late
#theresamay We do not need an inquiry. An inquiry did not serve justice for Hillsborough's disaster and Iraq war.
This is an act of corporate manslaughter. We need justice. https://youtu.be/l1Y9pmHWYYg
FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD

Firefighters were there within 6 minutes. I think to even suggest that they are somehow to blame is incredibly crass. These guys entered that building, going as high as the 9th floor, some without breathing apparatus, to save those that were unable to make it out themselves.

They witnessed horrors that you nor I could ever imagine, horrors that will live with them forever. They put themselves at risk, and in doing so saved many lives.

Some of them left that building with their own clothes smoking and melting.

Whilst there may be some substance to some of your post, I find the bit about fire fighters to be hugely insensitive, not to mention distruthful - and it discredits everything else you've written.

And as for an enquiry - of course we need one. Lessons need to be learnt, and in order to learn those lessons the full facts need to be known. It probably is a case of corporate manslaughter, but that doesn't mean there is no other lesson that can be taken away from this.


Seems like your replying to all my posts, now I know why??
#23
ceres
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.
You don't have a clue. Inquests are held into EVERY unexplained death. They are typically conducted by a Coroner who is an independent member of the Judiciary and are very limited in the questions they can ask and the evidence they can call - who was the deceased, where did they die, when did they die and what was the cause of death. There will be an inquest for every person who died in the fire.
FYI, an inquest was opened and adjourned yesterday for the Manchester bomber.

Yes I think we all know what that is and it never worked in previous fires. When the terms can be put by the government and the judge is appointed by the government what do you think would happen, they can only advise what the government can do to prevent further deaths, this was the conclusion after lakanal house 2009, Your text here but recommendations weren't taken notice of. A public enquiry would lead to the same result with grenfell that's why we need an inquest that actually shows what the root cause of it was. Government get away with murder if it's public.


Edited By: MR1123 on Jun 18, 2017 15:27: G
1 Like #24
MR1123
Yes I think we all know what that is and it never worked in previous fires. When the terms can be put by the government and the judge is appointed by the government what do you think would happen, they can only advise what the government can do to prevent further deaths, this was the conclusion after lakanal house 2009, Your text here but recommendations weren't taken notice of. A public enquiry would lead to the same result with grenfell that's why we need an inquest that actually shows what the root cause of it was. Government get away with murder if it's public.

At the risk of repeating myself. inquests are held into every death that is not from natural causes. There will be an inquest in respect of every one of the fatalities at Grenfell Tower.
3 Likes #25
19DembaBa19
miikeyblue
19DembaBa19
TRUTH ABOUT GRENFELL
TOWER
1. The tower is situated in one of the most expensive places in the world. The rich residents were complaining of "eye-sore" by looking at the horrendous building
2. They decided to refurbish the outside of the building with cheap materials that easily catch fire costing £8 million
3. But they forgot to replace the old lift which would have cost 60 grand
4. The fire brigade came few days before the fire to advice a few residents on fire emergency
5. When the fire started the victims wanted to jump out of the building onto mattresses but police did not allow it. They told residents to stay indoors and firefighters will rescue them
6. Fire brigade came 40 mins late
#theresamay We do not need an inquiry. An inquiry did not serve justice for Hillsborough's disaster and Iraq war.
This is an act of corporate manslaughter. We need justice. https://youtu.be/l1Y9pmHWYYg
FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD
Firefighters were there within 6 minutes. I think to even suggest that they are somehow to blame is incredibly crass. These guys entered that building, going as high as the 9th floor, some without breathing apparatus, to save those that were unable to make it out themselves.
They witnessed horrors that you nor I could ever imagine, horrors that will live with them forever. They put themselves at risk, and in doing so saved many lives.
Some of them left that building with their own clothes smoking and melting.
Whilst there may be some substance to some of your post, I find the bit about fire fighters to be hugely insensitive, not to mention distruthful - and it discredits everything else you've written.
And as for an enquiry - of course we need one. Lessons need to be learnt, and in order to learn those lessons the full facts need to be known. It probably is a case of corporate manslaughter, but that doesn't mean there is no other lesson that can be taken away from this.
Seems like your replying to all my posts, now I know why??

I'll reply with the same, wherever you post that drivel.
#26
ceres
MR1123
Yes I think we all know what that is and it never worked in previous fires. When the terms can be put by the government and the judge is appointed by the government what do you think would happen, they can only advise what the government can do to prevent further deaths, this was the conclusion after lakanal house 2009, Your text here but recommendations weren't taken notice of. A public enquiry would lead to the same result with grenfell that's why we need an inquest that actually shows what the root cause of it was. Government get away with murder if it's public.
At the risk of repeating myself. inquests are held into every death that is not from natural causes. There will be an inquest in respect of every one of the fatalities at Grenfell Tower.

Why is media and pm saying public enquiry then? You can have one or the other, not both.

Edited By: MR1123 on Jun 18, 2017 22:07
#27
MR1123
Why is media and pm saying public enquiry then? You can have one or the other, not both.

At the risk of repeating myself again. An inquest is limited in scope. A Public Inquiry isn't. However, the distrustful conspiracy theorists believe that there will be a 'better' outcome from a limited scope inquest led by an independent member of the Judiciary than from a wide-ranging Public inquiry led by a Government appointee.
#28
ceres
MR1123
Why is media and pm saying public enquiry then? You can have one or the other, not both.
At the risk of repeating myself again. An inquest is limited in scope. A Public Inquiry isn't. However, the distrustful conspiracy theorists believe that there will be a 'better' outcome from a limited scope inquest led by an independent member of the Judiciary than from a wide-ranging Public inquiry led by a Government appointee.

I think you need to read what I asked and see if your reply answers my questions because im finding it very difficult understanding you. From what i gathered is, you are saying it will be an inquest not a public inquiry. I know the difference you dont need to explain it to me.
#29
I don't decide how this incident will be investigated. The PM has announced there will be a wide ranging Public Inquiry. There will be a Coroner's inquest in respect of each individual death. There is an ongoing Police criminal investigation.
#30
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.

Inquests were opened today for the first few victims. This is normal practice which happens for every unexpected or unexplained death.
#31
ceres
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.
Inquests were opened today for the first few victims. This is normal practice which happens for every unexpected or unexplained death.
I have just expressed my opinion one time. You don't need to harass me for my single comment so many times, because neither you nor I are paid experts or even as causal bystanders, know enough to claim one is more right than another, including two other deleted threads.
I pass you to superior knowledge for further action now http://www.inquest.org.uk/media/pr/inquest-statement-on-grenfell-tower-fire
http://www.inquest.org.uk/ilg/home


Edited By: splender on Jun 21, 2017 18:37
#32
splender
ceres
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.
Inquests were opened today for the first few victims. This is normal practice which happens for every unexpected or unexplained death.
I have just expressed my opinion one time. You don't need to harass me for my single comment so many times, because neither you nor I are paid experts or even as causal bystanders, know enough to claim one is more right than another, including two other deleted threads.
I pass you to superior knowledge for further action now http://www.inquest.org.uk/media/pr/inquest-statement-on-grenfell-tower-firehttp://www.inquest.org.uk/ilg/home

I'm not harassing you. I'm educating you and updating you with news on a subject that you were sufficiently interested in to express an (incorrect) opinion.

Enough of the 'victim' mentality already.
#33
ceres
splender
ceres
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.
Inquests were opened today for the first few victims. This is normal practice which happens for every unexpected or unexplained death.
I have just expressed my opinion one time. You don't need to harass me for my single comment so many times, because neither you nor I are paid experts or even as causal bystanders, know enough to claim one is more right than another, including two other deleted threads.
I pass you to superior knowledge for further action now http://www.inquest.org.uk/media/pr/inquest-statement-on-grenfell-tower-firehttp://www.inquest.org.uk/ilg/home
I'm not harassing you. I'm educating you and updating you with news on a subject that you were sufficiently interested in to express an (incorrect) opinion.
Enough of the 'victim' mentality already.
I rather you that did not force yourself to educate me as you are most likely to be needing this yourself. You may compare your knowledge with the information of the two links that I provided you with. Once you have learnt what it says there, give me an analysis why that you are more right than the lawyers from that web site.
#34
ceres
splender
ceres
splender
There needs to an INQUEST (with independent judicial powers) rather than a public INQUIRY. I think forces are at hand to help the victims to raise profile to an INQUEST.
Inquests were opened today for the first few victims. This is normal practice which happens for every unexpected or unexplained death.
I have just expressed my opinion one time. You don't need to harass me for my single comment so many times, because neither you nor I are paid experts or even as causal bystanders, know enough to claim one is more right than another, including two other deleted threads.
I pass you to superior knowledge for further action now http://www.inquest.org.uk/media/pr/inquest-statement-on-grenfell-tower-firehttp://www.inquest.org.uk/ilg/home
I'm not harassing you. I'm educating you and updating you with news on a subject that you were sufficiently interested in to express an (incorrect) opinion.
Enough of the 'victim' mentality already.
More seriously, what do you means, Enough of the 'victim' mentality already, are you being disrepectful to the victims of Grenfell?
#35
There is nothing in the statement on the website you linked to that is at odds with anything I have posted on the subject. Perhaps you've forgotten that you were demanding an inquest, which was always going to be held for each person who died.

And enough of the faux outrage already.
#36
ceres
There is nothing in the statement on the website you linked to that is at odds with anything I have posted on the subject. Perhaps you've forgotten that you were demanding an inquest, which was always going to be held for each person who died.
And enough of the faux outrage already.
Why is your opinion better than mine?
And why did you write, "Enough of the 'victim' mentality already"? Who is having this mentality?
Why are you singling me out?

Edited By: splender on Jun 21, 2017 19:11
1 Like #37
I didn't present an opinion. I presented facts. You can check them out for yourself on the government website - I believe they have a section on inquests.

I'm not singling you out for anything. We're having a debate. That's what people do on fora. Unless of course you'd rather talk to yourself.
#38
splender
ceres
There is nothing in the statement on the website you linked to that is at odds with anything I have posted on the subject. Perhaps you've forgotten that you were demanding an inquest, which was always going to be held for each person who died.
And enough of the faux outrage already.
Why is your opinion better than mine?
And why did you write, "Enough of the 'victim' mentality already"? Who is having this mentality?
Why are you singling me out?
I'll accept your answer on that you are not singling me out. I am holding you to account
Now address the my other two questions:-
Why is your opinion better than mine? (You wrote that I have not a clue.)
And why did you write, "Enough of the 'victim' mentality already"? Who is having this mentality? Are you being disrepective to the Grenfell victims?
#39
You don't have a clue about the inquest process else you wouldn't be demanding an inquest when it was already a given under the law that there would be.

Victim mentality: harassment? Really? If you don't want responses to your (prolific) posts, perhaps you should step away from the keyboard.
#40
I rest my case on Hillsborough ( 2 inquiries and 2 inquests), Zeebrugge , Marchioness disaster and notably Hillsborough.
Inquest is specifically for the victims.
Public inquiry into a disaster is to restore public confidence and therefore has a wider scope in this (housing) disaster issue , public inquiry may or does not deal with all issues of relevance to the purposes of justice for the victims. (Notably Hillborough.)
.
In my opinion, call and let , advocated by a solicitor in the news, the inquest complete first is optimal for the victims because of speed and focus as inquest may be sought once outcome of any criminal proceedings is finalised rather than having to wait for a public inquiry which may take years. Civil action may start earlier to seek redress for the victims. By all means have a public inquiry afterwards.
.
A public inquiry first is optimal for the public and other residents in similar situations, whatever the situations may be. But once a public inquiry is started then an inquest is adjoined till the public inquiry is finished because an inquest will very likely be subordinated to the public inquiry (in order to avoid two hearings of the same evidence). If it is so subordinated, the inquest opens formally for identification and release of bodies for burial, then adjourns, resuming (if at all) only after the completion of the public inquiry which may take years to complete because of its much wider scope and the need to establish blame to the relevant parties.
.
Another factor is that this public inquiry was called by the Prime Minister therefore it is uncertain how much time this inquiry gets in term of political attention, an interim report was required by the London Mayor, amongst all the state matters such as Brexit and the workloads of the government now has to include this inquiry since an inquiry report is given first to the government for review, notwithstanding government minister involvement. An inquest time schedule does not depend on the government. ( Chilcott Report took ages for its publication.)
.


Edited By: splender on Jun 21, 2017 23:17: added text

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