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Monaco GP, Schumacher Penalty? Thoughts?

Hamm Avatar
banned6y, 6m agoPosted 6 years, 6 months ago
Apologies if this thread has already been made...


Schumacher penalised by 20 seconds down to 12th..


Thoughts?

My thoughts are it was a fair pass, Alonso was sideways coming out of the last corner..
Hamm Avatar
banned6y, 6m agoPosted 6 years, 6 months ago
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#1
When was the decision finalised? There was conflicting takes on the rules, and if the stewards took so long to decide I think at worst he should be classified as 7th.
#2
ridiculous penalty but what can you expect with old Damon as the race driver steward this weekend

more proof of Ferrari International Assistance just like Lewis' move on Kimi at Spa in 08

I think the proof that Ross Brawn showed to Ted Kravitz on bbc showed a clear cut case, the rule does seem to be in a grey area...surely if the race finishes under a safety car then the safety car should be first to cross the line. The safety car went in so therefore IMO the race began again and alonso got caught napping
banned#3
awoodhall2003
When was the decision finalised? There was conflicting takes on the rules, and if the stewards took so long to decide I think at worst he should be classified as 7th.


A little while ago.

Mercedes are appealing it..

I agree at worst 7th but Hill carrying on their agenda with each other...
#4
i feel it was a wrong decision aswell, his pass was totally legal. Probably just Hill's Vendetta agains him
banned#5
numptyj
ridiculous penalty but what can you expect with old Damon as the race driver steward this weekend

more proof of Ferrari International Assistance just like Lewis' move on Kimi at Spa in 08


totally agree.

AFAIK webber even sped in the pit lane too..
banned#6
lastlaststar
i feel it was a wrong decision aswell, his pass was totally legal. Probably just Hill's Vendetta agains him


Definitely.
Schumacher drove a quality race, finally saw his old skill coming back out.
#7
Hamm
Definitely.
Schumacher drove a quality race, finally saw his old skill coming back out.


its a shame the Mercedes isnt fully up to speed with the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren as it would be good to see Schumi actually being truly on the pace and being able to challenge, Red Bull seem to be in a world of their own though and are meant to be brining updates and their own 'f-duct' to Istanbul which will no doubt keep them on top but hopefully not as it would be good to see some close racing as the points system this year has seemed to work quite well so far
#8
Lets hope Hill has shafted him

for the Years of cheating would be the least he deserves
#9
tough.........screw the germans:)

British ftw
#10
Rules are quite clear when the safety car is deployed within the last lap. Ferrari told Alonso there was no overtaking as he wanted to try to pass Hamilton.
Alonso drove, possibly, the best race anybody has ever done in Monaco.

I think Michael's decision to come back was not a good one. He'll get better but he will not challenge for the championship.
banned#11
numptyj
its a shame the Mercedes isnt fully up to speed with the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren as it would be good to see Schumi actually being truly on the pace and being able to challenge, Red Bull seem to be in a world of their own though and are meant to be brining updates and their own 'f-duct' to Istanbul which will no doubt keep them on top but hopefully not as it would be good to see some close racing as the points system this year has seemed to work quite well so far


very true..

I'd love to see an equal speed car and see how they would all perform.

Schumi's fastest lap today beat hamilton rosberg etc..
He's still got it, the new car chassis he is using along with the upgrades are helping a treat.
#12
smartmac
Rules are quite clear when the safety car is deployed within the last lap. Ferrari told Alonso there was no overtaking as he wanted to try to pass Hamilton.
Alonso drove, possibly, the best race anybody has ever done in Monaco.

I think Michael's decision to come back was not a good one. He'll get better but he will not challenge for the championship.


It hasn't been the best start to his comeback but now he is actually getting more into a rhythm and beating Rosberg now in most sessions. If Mercedes can get him a better car then I think he can definitely challenge, I think its still very early to judge his comeback, AFAIK he is signed to a 3 year contract so hopefully he will be around for the full 3 years and we will see him bag some race wins and possibly another title.
banned#13
smartmac
Rules are quite clear when the safety car is deployed within the last lap. Ferrari told Alonso there was no overtaking as he wanted to try to pass Hamilton.
Alonso drove, possibly, the best race anybody has ever done in Monaco.

I think Michael's decision to come back was not a good one. He'll get better but he will not challenge for the championship.


The rules are very dubious..
Why would the safety car pit?
If the race was to end under the SC, then surely they would all cross the line and race finished no overtaking..

But this didnt happen, I would have done the same thing..

Alonso was pushing hard came sideways out of the corner, SCHUMI took advantage, fair pass.

You have to bear in mind, the guy is 41 and has had 3 years out..
And can still push it with the big boys.
banned#14
numptyj
It hasn't been the best start to his comeback but now he is actually getting more into a rhythm and beating Rosberg now in most sessions. If Mercedes can get him a better car then I think he can definitely challenge, I think its still very early to judge his comeback, AFAIK he is signed to a 3 year contract so hopefully he will be around for the full 3 years and we will see him bag some race wins and possibly another title.


exactly, its taken 5/6 races for him to adjust which is understandable, 3 years is a very long time..

If mercedes can keep upgrading the car well, hell deffo be challenging.
#15
Hamm
The rules are very dubious..
Why would the safety car pit?
If the race was to end under the SC, then surely they would all cross the line and race finished no overtaking..

But this didnt happen, I would have done the same thing..

Alonso was pushing hard came sideways out of the corner, SCHUMI took advantage, fair pass.

You have to bear in mind, the guy is 41 and has had 3 years out..
And can still push it with the big boys.


I think Martin Brundle made a great point possibly on the red button afterwards, if Webber had put it into the barriers on cold tyres on the final corner...everyone would have overtaken him and no doubt he would not have got first place.

Or if he did actually crash into the barriers and not make it over the line would that rule be called into play and he would have got the race victory? It just seems a grey area.
banned#16
numptyj
I think Martin Brundle made a great point possibly on the red button afterwards, if Webber had put it into the barriers on cold tyres on the final corner...everyone would have overtaken him and no doubt he would not have got first place.

Or if he did actually crash into the barriers and not make it over the line would that rule be called into play and he would have got the race victory? It just seems a grey area.


Yeah, exactly if alonso had hit the wall what do we all expect to do, sit in a line and wait for alonso to be pushed over the line lol?

If Alonso wasn't pushing hard on the last corner( which explains the still racing issue..), this would never have been an issue..
#17
Ive just realised the irony that comes with my avatar...I should be backing Alonso :p
#18
In a way Alonso and Schumacher are both right, yeah the safety car was in and the lights went to green but in the rules it states "If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking." The safety car did enter the pit lane and the end of the last lap so the cars can not overtake...

Schumacher should have been put back to 7th and Alonso 6th but with Hill dishing out the penalties of course he was going to get put to the back!
#19
only right to get demoted by 20 secs ..

rules are whilst the safety car is out on the track, NO OVERTAKING should take place. Only when the Safety Car as pitted, and you have cleared the start/finish line, THEN and ONLY THEN are you allowed to race properly and overtake..

He has been in the F1 game for long enough (forgot his time outta F1) to know the rules, and I'm sure the pit crew know the rules as well, so no place to complain imo.
#20
Disco
only right to get demoted by 20 secs ..

rules are whilst the safety car is out on the track, NO OVERTAKING should take place. Only when the Safety Car as pitted, and you have cleared the start/finish line, THEN and ONLY THEN are you allowed to race properly and overtake..

He has been in the F1 game for long enough (forgot his time outta F1) to know the rules, and I'm sure the pit crew know the rules as well, so no place to complain imo.


that is not the rules. The rules were changed this year which mean that overtaking can commence from the safety car line, which at the Monaco track is situated before the final corner. The rule in question is Article 40.13 of the Formula 1 sporting regulations states: "If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

It just seems to me pointless that the safety car came in if the race was to finish under the safety car everything would have been much clearer, not for it to come in the track to be clear but for the race to essentially be under 'safety car conditions'

Ross Brawn after the race
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA
#21
A green flag indicates that any previous danger has been attended to. The track is now clear, and drivers may proceed at racing speed and may again overtake. When the race director so directs, this may be displayed during the parade lap or at the beginning of a practice session; in this case all marshals positions will signal green flags. Green flashing lights are used in addition in modern races.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6575/greenflag.jpg

Safety car line at Monaco...

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7539/safetycar.jpg

As you can see in the pic below Schumi was behind Alonso going over that line

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4314/schumi1.jpg

That line essentially acts as a start finish line when a safety car pits. The fact that there were conflicting messages, i.e green flags what is a driver meant to do, just coast to the finish? No they are meant to continue racing and if there is an opportunity to pass they go for it. If there were yellow flags and he had done it then the case would be more clear cut.

IMO I think this ruling is just too grey and I guess his punishment will now define the rule just like Lewis/Kimi at Spa...after that race all the drivers knew that they had to wait 2 corners before they could retry to make a move on someone if they had passed by cutting a chicane etc

yes im kinda bored haha
#22
Article 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the Safety Car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Can't make it any clearer. All teams have the rule book, its only Schum that thinks it doesn't apply to him!!!
#23
numptyj
A green flag indicates that any previous danger has been attended to. The track is now clear, and drivers may proceed at racing speed and may again overtake. When the race director so directs, this may be displayed during the parade lap or at the beginning of a practice session; in this case all marshals positions will signal green flags. Green flashing lights are used in addition in modern races.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6575/greenflag.jpg

Safety car line at Monaco...

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7539/safetycar.jpg

As you can see in the pic below Schumi was behind Alonso going over that line

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4314/schumi1.jpg


The green flag means that they are no longer under the SC, but it doesn't mean make the rest of the rules up themselves.

That line essentially acts as a start finish line when a safety car pits. The fact that there were conflicting messages, i.e green flags what is a driver meant to do, just coast to the finish? No they are meant to continue racing and if there is an opportunity to pass they go for it. If there were yellow flags and he had done it then the case would be more clear cut.

IMO I think this ruling is just too grey and I guess his punishment will now define the rule just like Lewis/Kimi at Spa...after that race all the drivers knew that they had to wait 2 corners before they could retry to make a move on someone if they had passed by cutting a chicane etc

yes im kinda bored haha
#24
KazzyD
Article 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the Safety Car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Can't make it any clearer. All teams have the rule book, its only Schum that thinks it doesn't apply to him!!!


then in that case yellow flags should be deployed if there is no overtaking to continue, there is a contradiction between the rules, and lol at the schumi thinks it doesnt apply to him, its characters like him and Lewis that I love in F1 they dont just sit there and do their race, they try to be aggressive/out of the box and look at all the angles but some people dont seem to like that passion in F1.

and tbh Schumi was probs on the radio asking if they were going back to race conditions etc and Ross Brawn/ or Andrew Shovelin (schumis race engineer) probs told Schumi that it was back to racing conditions so its not like he was doing it on purpose just to stir things up he going by their guidelines and thought it was a legitimate time to pass and took the opportunity
#25
Aah well.....at least it gives an interesting talking point to what was essentially quite a dull race!!:whistling:
#26
numptyj
then in that case yellow flags should be deployed if there is no overtaking to continue, there is a contradiction between the rules, and lol at the schumi thinks it doesnt apply to him, its characters like him and Lewis that I love in F1 they dont just sit there and do their race, they try to be aggressive/out of the box and look at all the angles but some people dont seem to like that passion in F1.

and tbh Schumi was probs on the radio asking if they were going back to race conditions etc and Ross Brawn/ or Andrew Shovelin (schumis race engineer) probs told Schumi that it was back to racing conditions so its not like he was doing it on purpose just to stir things up he going by their guidelines and thought it was a legitimate time to pass and took the opportunity


The yellow flags are deployed when the track is not clear, in this case the track had been cleared of debris. The SC flag is self expanitary as is the Chequered flag. The green flag is deployed once a hazard is cleared and normal race conditions continue. However, the rule book clearly states that if the SC is still out on the last lap, then no overtaking is allowed. In effect this allows the winner to take the chequered flag but little else.

All teams have access to the rules, so why should one team think that they can bend them to suit, put it this way, Brawn would have been the first to complain if it was the other way round :whistling:
#27
muckypup
Aah well.....at least it gives an interesting talking point to what was essentially quite a dull race!!:whistling:


Really? 13 left out of the 24 that started? :w00t:
#28
KazzyD
The yellow flags are deployed when the track is not clear, in this case the track had been cleared of debris. The SC flag is self expanitary as is the Chequered flag. The green flag is deployed once a hazard is cleared and normal race conditions continue. However, the rule book clearly states that if the SC is still out on the last lap, then no overtaking is allowed. In effect this allows the winner to take the chequered flag but little else.

All teams have access to the rules, so why should one team think that they can bend them to suit, put it this way, Brawn would have been the first to complain if it was the other way round :whistling:


so why was Alonso pushing it hard causing him to wheelspin out of Rascasse when he was told that there was no overtaking, why didn't he just just feed the throttle and through the last corner...most likely because he didn't want to get caught out as he thought it was full race conditions
#29
awoodhall2003
Really? 13 left out of the 24 that started? :w00t:

Yep.....a bit of excitement at the start,safety car,pit stops where not a huge amount happened,a couple more safety cars,one for a drain cover,processional driving continued until Trulli got bored and mounted Chandock,SC 'til the end(or not as Mercedes will argue)

For Monaco I thought it was quite dull
#30
numptyj
so why was Alonso pushing it hard causing him to wheelspin out of Rascasse when he was told that there was no overtaking, why didn't he just just feed the throttle and through the last corner...most likely because he didn't want to get caught out as he thought it was full race conditions


According to Ferrari, Alonso knew full well that NO overtaking was allowed on the last lap. Maybe his tyres were cold or maybe he just wanted to go round the last corner in style, who knows :-D
#31
Hamm


I'd love to see an equal speed car and see how they would all perform.



They do. Its called A1 and its pants :-D
#32
Karma
#33
mr.potato_head
They do. Its called A1 and its pants :-D


and gone bust
#34
mr.potato_head
They do. Its called A1 and its pants :-D


Do they not use the same cars in gp2?
#35
micoo
Do they not use the same cars in gp2?


no, otherwise what would be the point lol

GP2 is the feeder series to F1, not sure how fast the A1 GP cars are but I doubt they are as fast
#36
A1 GP

The Lola B05/52[3] was the spec car used the by the series from the 2005–06 season to the 2007–08 season. It was powered by Zytek engines, and ran on Cooper tyres. The former chassis is now used in the Euro Formula 3000 series, starting in 2009.[4]


GP2

Chassis
The 2009 specification GP2 Car has been designed by Dallara Automobili. The 2006 GP2 car features a biplane rear wing, with the triplane rear wing used in previous seasons only to be used at the Monaco race. The front upper and lower wishbones have been reinforced, as have the front and rear suspension uprights.

Engine
The 4 litre Renault V8 engine features internal, cartographic and software upgrades designed to improve performance and fuel consumption. The engine produces about 580 hp (432.5 kW).


Dallara make the chassis for the HRT team...yet they are slower than some GP2 cars loool
#37
looks like the last season of A1 GP used a car based on the F2004

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