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More parents being prosecuted for unauthorised term time holidays - Supreme Court rules against Father who challenged local authority

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More parents than ever before in England are being prosecuted for taking their kids out of school in term time for unauthorised holidays. The latest figures available from a Press Agency report (Which… Read More
emribena Avatar
[mod] 1m, 2w agoPosted 1 month, 2 weeks ago
More parents than ever before in England are being prosecuted for taking their kids out of school in term time for unauthorised holidays. The latest figures available from a Press Agency report (Which are from 2015) show that there were almost 20,000 prosecutions in 2015, up more than 20% on 2014 which resulted in more than 11,000 fines and eight jail sentences!

Truancy prosecutions in England in 2015

Proceeded against: 19,920 (16,430 in 2014)
Found guilty: 14,890 (12,479 in 2014)
Fined: 11,493, average fine £176. (9,214, average fine £172 in 2014)
Immediate custody: 8 (18 in 2014)
Suspended sentence: 111 (103 in 2014)
Community sentence: 553 (488 in 2014)
Conditional discharge: 2,280 (2,371 in 2014)
Absolute discharge: 306 (167 in 2014)

Source - Press Agency

http://e3.365dm.com/17/01/536x302/fa3aa824681843d191b00bd108d40aff0d3ff56fecfdc4e02360de42408a1425_3881381.jpg?20170131111619

The Supreme Court ruling is also due today on the father Jon Platt who took his daughter on a term time holiday in 2015 without the schools permission. He successfully challenged the local authority in the High Court and today we should find out if they are ruling in the parents or the schools favour. I will update as soon as we get the decision.
ORIGINAL HUKD LINK
UPDATE - Verdict in Mr Platt has lost his appeal and the government have welcomed the descion saying that "No child should be taken out of school without good reason"
Mr Platts case will now be referred back to the original local magistrates court for their decision.

Does this increase in prosecutions put you off taking your kids out of school for a holiday or do you think the fine is less than the difference in term time and school break holidays?
emribena Avatar
[mod] 1m, 2w agoPosted 1 month, 2 weeks ago
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(3)
13 Likes
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.
11 Likes
drtongue
If the Government cracked down on silly prices during half terms this would not happen.

Why should they?, Its simply supply and demand, a very standard fundamental of economics and a market economy. A companies sole purpose of being is to generate income.

http://i.investopedia.com/inv/tutorials/site/economics/economics5.gif
5 Likes
xeroc
fivegoldstars
Error440
Quietus
I'm surprised that they're surprised. People want to go on holiday when they want to go, not when they're told they can go. It was never a problem for years and years, yet in recent years, it's suddenly become a big issue.
The way I see it is: What would be the difference if the child were off sick for a week or two?
I think its because our standings in the world are dropping so they are going to blame everyting but the lack of focus, all these asian countries that do better then us they hammer maths and reading and writing into kids we dont and we have far too many subjects which are unnecessary
Agreed. Just had a dispute with my school about RE. 45 hours a year compulsory teaching - the same as PE. Scrap RE and help fight obesity.
Do you not think the study of RE is useful?

Not in today's society.
Should be replaced with "Life Skills" which would include Home Economics and Money Management.


My memory of RE in secondary school was an hour in which Mr Hill (The teacher) read the paper and I copied Maths homework from a mate for the lesson afterwards.


Edited By: Chiptivo on Apr 06, 2017 13:42

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3 Likes #1
If the Government cracked down on silly prices during half terms this would not happen.
13 Likes #2
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.
#3
larrylightweight
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.

Exactly this, I know of parents who have been unable to take their child anywhere other than their grandparents house elsewhere in the UK for a holiday as they respect the term holiday rules. It's just not affordable out of term for many.

It didn't do me any harm and I couldn't imagine not visiting another country in my school years, but it's down to the parents to take the child somewhere that would aid their development, rather than just benidorm for a bender while the child plays in the pool for a week.

One of those rules that punish everyone to prevent the few idiots from abusing it. Not my idea of fair.

Edited By: delusion on Apr 06, 2017 10:04
2 Likes #4
He lost, which is good i think there simply needs to be some common sense from schools.

At the end of the day the father could simply have paid the £60 - he would have saved far more than that taking the child out during term time.

Edited By: RAFAVDV on Apr 06, 2017 10:04
2 Likes #5
RAFAVDV
He lost, which is good i think there simply needs to be some common sense from schools.
At the end of the day the father could simply have paid the £60 - he would have saved far more than that taking the child out during term time.

If he had paid the £60 he would have saved far more than the court costs aswell, but somebody has to stump up the money to challenge stuff

Edited By: winifer on Apr 06, 2017 10:08
4 Likes #6
A £60 fine to save £100s on a holiday? Seems a no-brainer to me.
2 Likes #7
Where does the £60 go?

I would happily pay for 1:1 tuition after school to catch up on school work missed for taking a term time holiday.
3 Likes #8
From today's ruling. The panel of Supreme Court justices, including the court’s president Lord Neuberger, declared that Parliament’s intention was that the word ‘regularly’ means ‘in accordance with the rules prescribed by the school’. No it doesn't regularly Is such a vague word it could be determined as 80% 90% 99% this has really cleared nothing up and people will just carry on doing it regardless the high court should of in my opinion had the balls to set an attendance record at a % but then I guess they never were going to because councils make money off the back of this. My opinion still stands are schools going to fine themselves for taking the kids on a weeks skiing trip usually in year 10 or 11 when kids are getting ready for the most important exams of their life's. The answer is no they are not the teachers themselves love this once a year payed for trip it's always the same teachers that go and from personal experience of going on such school trips the teachers go skiing in the day and boozing at night it's just seen as a school teachers perk. One rule for parents another again for teachers.
2 Likes #9
I'm surprised that they're surprised. People want to go on holiday when they want to go, not when they're told they can go. It was never a problem for years and years, yet in recent years, it's suddenly become a big issue.

The way I see it is: What would be the difference if the child were off sick for a week or two?
4 Likes #10
it said on tv that there have been 8 jailings for this .. how can you be jailed when there is no victim and no crime has been committed ?
this is contract law and i suggest parents look into how they have a contract with the school and if so you are allowed to change contracts so put in there you do not consent to any fines or punishments for any reason in your contract.
this is not legal advice, just letting you know to do your research.

how could this father have won when the prosecutor and the judge both get paid by the crown ?? thats a conflict of interest, thats two against one in a fight ! no chance of winning. remember the judge and the prosecutor are both members of the same exclusive boys club, the bar !
people must fight this , if everyone did it, things would have to change. stand up. do not accept being held to a contract.


Edited By: 2bcool2 on Apr 06, 2017 10:51
#11
I thought it was £60 per parent per child!, I have 4 children that have never been abroad for this reason £££
#12
drtongue
If the Government cracked down on silly prices during half terms this would not happen.
But surely it is about demand, most places are fully booked on school holiday dates.
11 Likes #13
drtongue
If the Government cracked down on silly prices during half terms this would not happen.

Why should they?, Its simply supply and demand, a very standard fundamental of economics and a market economy. A companies sole purpose of being is to generate income.

http://i.investopedia.com/inv/tutorials/site/economics/economics5.gif
2 Likes #14
Children should be on school in term time. Introducing anything else would be crazy for the schools to try and police. Once you start to set this precedent it would just get silly - unfortunately most people are actually idiots and would not think of timing in term holidays to fit with their child's educational needs.
#15
RAFAVDV
He lost, which is good i think there simply needs to be some common sense from schools.
At the end of the day the father could simply have paid the £60 - he would have saved far more than that taking the child out during term time.

sadly nothing to do with the schools, the local authority is the one that has the final say, heads get grief from parents, parents complain to education authority, school governors have to deal with the complain and the education authority just sits there taking in the cash. Head has little choice, has to follow the rules or gets blacked marked by education authority and OFSTED.

More realistic way is to start changing the way holidays are used by schools, 6 weeks holidays were ok when most people didn't work full time but now we live totally differently and what have schools done to change, make the school day shorter than ever.
2 Likes #16
larrylightweight
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.

Do you believe that 99% of the public would actually use a term time holiday for extra curricular holidays (I am not sure reading the ice-cream list in Brittany counts...) ? Or a cheap week to see mickey mouse!? Imagine your golden child with 100% attendance goes on this trip for 2 weeks and then gets ill on return so misses another week or two?

Also think, child A has 2 weeks off, then child B in the class has the next week, child C/D have the next week. Try being a teacher and managing this on top of everything else in your classroom!

Edited By: manc80 on Apr 06, 2017 11:56: .
1 Like #17
2bcool2
it said on tv that there have been 8 jailings for this .. how can you be jailed when there is no victim and no crime has been committed ?
this is contract law and i suggest parents look into how they have a contract with the school and if so you are allowed to change contracts so put in there you do not consent to any fines or punishments for any reason in your contract.
this is not legal advice, just letting you know to do your research.
how could this father have won when the prosecutor and the judge both get paid by the crown ?? thats a conflict of interest, thats two against one in a fight ! no chance of winning. remember the judge and the prosecutor are both members of the same exclusive boys club, the bar !
people must fight this , if everyone did it, things would have to change. stand up. do not accept being held to a contract.
i thought that for a sec, but its truancy in general so i assume its cases of long term absences with warnings etc and failure to act rather than the holiday absences
those figures alone would be much more relevant
op should be changed as jail terms etc are highlighted even though not relevant to the thread re holiday absence


Edited By: brilly on Apr 06, 2017 12:10: .
4 Likes #18
drtongue
If the Government cracked down on silly prices during half terms this would not happen.

So you want the government to control what private companies can charge for goods and services? Yeah, sounds like a plan!
1 Like #19
Good on them, they shouldn't be wasting their kids' school days
1 Like #20
manc80
larrylightweight
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.

Do you believe that 99% of the public would actually use a term time holiday for extra curricular holidays (I am not sure reading the ice-cream list in Brittany counts...) ? Or a cheap week to see mickey mouse!? Imagine your golden child with 100% attendance goes on this trip for 2 weeks and then gets ill on return so misses another week or two?

Also think, child A has 2 weeks off, then child B in the class has the next week, child C/D have the next week. Try being a teacher and managing this on top of everything else in your classroom!


That's exactly how it used to be and nobody had a problem with it including teachers. You do realise most schools don't want to fine you but have to because the education authorities say they have to. it all started when people could be fined for bad attendance then councils thought oh I know what about we fine people for good attendance but take a holiday in term time that will gain us more income at £60 a fine per child per parent. The money generated doesn't even go back to the individual school the child went to.
#21
Absolutely pathetic fining people for this. It's yet a case again of the innocent being punished, the families that don't care ruin it for everyone else.... fair enough to fine constant offenders, and maybe during the exam years, up for that, but for a kid with perfect attendance and out for one week for a holiday, pathetic!! What is a primary school kid going to miss out in one week of a whole year.
#22
I have 6 children to take with me, 2 of which have asd and adhd it's not just about the cost there is no way my children could cope in the busy holiday period we always go when it's quiet
#23
manc80
larrylightweight
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.
Do you believe that 99% of the public would actually use a term time holiday for extra curricular holidays (I am not sure reading the ice-cream list in Brittany counts...) ? Or a cheap week to see mickey mouse!? Imagine your golden child with 100% attendance goes on this trip for 2 weeks and then gets ill on return so misses another week or two?
Also think, child A has 2 weeks off, then child B in the class has the next week, child C/D have the next week. Try being a teacher and managing this on top of everything else in your classroom!

Outwith maybe exam years, I don't know any teachers that have a problem with kids going on holiday during term time, and I know quite a few teachers.
#24
bigmaz
Absolutely pathetic fining people for this. It's yet a case again of the innocent being punished, the families that don't care ruin it for everyone else.... fair enough to fine constant offenders, and maybe during the exam years, up for that, but for a kid with perfect attendance and out for one week for a holiday, pathetic!! What is a primary school kid going to miss out in one week of a whole year.


legally they cannot call it a fine until you have your day in court when if you are found guilty they can issue a fine.
they have to call it a charge , thats how they get around the law ...same with parking charge notices. its only a notice to let you know, they cant call it a fine legally. hope this will get people looking into this because most people don't know the difference between law and legal ... legal is contract, (business ! ) your local council is a corporation there to make money. its a business.
#25
How about this. if we take away the moneymaking part of fining parents, what if they said if you miss time off school to go on holiday, you have to make it up through school classes after school? I'm sure there are detention classes going on anyway so no extra cost.

why even bring taking money from parents into it ? stealing money from parents effects only the poorer in society . if you're well off a fine wont make any difference to them will it ? if your rich enough to afford the fine there isn't an issue .
1 Like #26
Our family loves holidaying in Florida. It's two weeks of the year we all enjoy massively. The price changes are astronomical between in-term and half term costs. With in-term costs being around £1500-£2000 total, but taking the family during half term sees that same amount, but per person. It's ridiculous.

Personally, I'd happily pay the £60 per week fine, to save the thousands overall. Plus it's just nicer over there when it's not overcrowded with families during term time.
#27
Can't say I'm surprised at the result. But thank you Jon for making a stand and trying for us all. I donated towards the court fees and would do again in a heartbeat as I feel the sentiment is exactly right. If your child has excellent attendance you should be allowed to take them on holiday.

In reply to the question, no this doesn't put me off taking my children away in term time (they currently both have 100% attendance); I still intend to take them to see the Taj Mahal later in the year, they should not and will not be deprived of such an opportunity!!
#28
Good! Although it won't solve the problem, it will make parents think twice.

Although a £2000 saving on a family holiday to Florida, they just factor in the £60 per child.
1 Like #29
NazKZ

In reply to the question, no this doesn't put me off taking my children away in term time (they currently both have 100% attendance); I still intend to take them to see the Taj Mahal later in the year, they should not and will not be deprived of such an opportunity!!

Because you can't take them at a time it won't deprive them of education, and will distract other law abiding children when they return with a tan, behind on their work and a souvenir with "made in china" on the bottom.
1 Like #30
Spare a thought for us husbands / wives of teachers - we're screwed either way.
#31
2bcool2
[quote=bigmaz]

legally they cannot call it a fine until you have your day in court when if you are found guilty they can issue a fine.
they have to call it a charge , thats how they get around the law ...same with parking charge notices. its only a notice to let you know, they cant call it a fine legally. hope this will get people looking into this because most people don't know the difference between law and legal ... legal is contract, (business ! ) your local council is a corporation there to make money. its a business.

It's a charge at £60 then increases to £120, then a fine after you have been taken to court.
It is NOT a money making exercise, believe me, a school pays more to have a bulb changed in these PFI financed buildings the last government shower setup.
If a big holiday, then fine (lol, see what I did here) pay the fine, but it was getting to the point when kids where taken out of school to go to their relatives caravan in wales because it suited.
#32
How about this idea..

Maybe teachers can work a full time job like the rest of society, and schools open all year. Parents and Teachers can have 24 days off to take like a leave system. Rather than just work the 190 days they currently do out of 365?
#33
bigmaz

Outwith maybe exam years, I don't know any teachers that have a problem with kids going on holiday during term time, and I know quite a few teachers.

Good. It means that the current system of not allowing term time holidays is working then..... ;)


Edited By: manc80 on Apr 06, 2017 12:56
1 Like #34
Chiptivo
NazKZ

In reply to the question, no this doesn't put me off taking my children away in term time (they currently both have 100% attendance); I still intend to take them to see the Taj Mahal later in the year, they should not and will not be deprived of such an opportunity!!
Because you can't take them at a time it won't deprive them of education, and will distract other law abiding children when they return with a tan, behind on their work and a souvenir with "made in china" on the bottom.

There are also many "law abiding children" behind on their work who do attend regularly and just sit in class, don't listen or distract others which kind of makes your point null and void ✌

Just because our education system doesn't hold as much value in quality family time or experiencing other cultures and lifestyles that doesn't mean to say my values don't; I feel these things are equally as important to my children becoming successful and well-rounded human beings.
1 Like #35
NazKZ
Chiptivo
NazKZ

In reply to the question, no this doesn't put me off taking my children away in term time (they currently both have 100% attendance); I still intend to take them to see the Taj Mahal later in the year, they should not and will not be deprived of such an opportunity!!
Because you can't take them at a time it won't deprive them of education, and will distract other law abiding children when they return with a tan, behind on their work and a souvenir with "made in china" on the bottom.
There are also many "law abiding children" behind on their work who do attend regularly and just sit in class, don't listen or distract others which kind of makes your point null and void ✌
Just because our education system doesn't hold as much value in quality family time or experiencing other cultures and lifestyles that doesn't mean to say my values don't; I feel these things are equally as important to my children becoming successful and well-rounded human beings.


You have the option to take them during the 13 weeks of the year they are not required to be in school?






I take my kids to the Taj Mahal at weekends and avoid the absence from school. They love it.

http://tajmahal02.efusionconsole.co.uk/images/Gallery/TajMahalInterior9.jpg

Edited By: Chiptivo on Apr 06, 2017 13:08
#36
larrylightweight
manc80
larrylightweight
I think it really dose have to be challenged on a case by case study no one size fits all policy. Some child attendance records are insane those parents should be fined but if your child attendance is good then a family holiday abroad could give a child a world of education that a school can't for that week or two. Education isn't just done in a classroom we as people learn everyday from our surroundings. Most high schools have week away trips nowadays anyway some parents can afford the school trip others can't but the school doesn't fine it's self for taking those kids out of school on one of their own skiing trips.
Do you believe that 99% of the public would actually use a term time holiday for extra curricular holidays (I am not sure reading the ice-cream list in Brittany counts...) ? Or a cheap week to see mickey mouse!? Imagine your golden child with 100% attendance goes on this trip for 2 weeks and then gets ill on return so misses another week or two?

Also think, child A has 2 weeks off, then child B in the class has the next week, child C/D have the next week. Try being a teacher and managing this on top of everything else in your classroom!

That's exactly how it used to be and nobody had a problem with it including teachers. You do realise most schools don't want to fine you but have to because the education authorities say they have to. it all started when people could be fined for bad attendance then councils thought oh I know what about we fine people for good attendance but take a holiday in term time that will gain us more income at £60 a fine per child per parent. The money generated doesn't even go back to the individual school the child went to.

You do realise that once you set this precedent that most people will take the pee?
As I said before, unfortunately these rules have to be in place because most people have no common sense. There is still nothing that I am aware of that means a school has to fine. Most schools still allow holidays in exceptional circumstances and this has not changed. Thankfully we are just not opening the flood gates......

"Holidays in term time

You have to get permission from the head teacher if you want to take your child out of school during term time.
You can only do this if:
you make an application to the head teacher in advance (as a parent the child normally lives with)
there are exceptional circumstances
It’s up to the head teacher how many days your child can be away from school if leave is granted."



Edited By: manc80 on Apr 06, 2017 13:11
#37
Chiptivo
How about this idea..
Maybe teachers can work a full time job like the rest of society, and schools open all year. Parents and Teachers can have 24 days off to take like a leave system. Rather than just work the 190 days they currently do out of 365?
They've started doing it with TA's so I wouldn't be surprised if they did it to teachers too. As the husband of a teacher I'd be all for it.

Edited By: Hilly_2006 on Apr 06, 2017 13:14
#38
Schools stupid anyway at my kids school they have what they call a soft start at 8.45 they claim its a relaxing time to settle down before classes and the school actually starts at 9 so the kids can come in anytime between that for the soft start....

They then moan when you take your kid in at 8.55 saying oh you should make sure your here in time for the 8.45 start so they can settle in. Most of the time i go to pick him up he's watching mr bean on the board and i know when its coming up to half term they just sit them down to watch things like toy story and cars 2 on the board, that thing has a youtube connection too I've noticed a lot of the things they play to the kid are YouTube
#39
if going to see sick or elderly relatives or someone dies abroad why do they still use the same rulings as holidays it's pretty sad occasions also they hardly give a visit visa to the UK yet all this there is no difference on one hand they suggest that it's not a 1 size fits all and then they do this. sorry but death illness and old age doesn't wait for school holidays.
1 Like #40
Quietus
I'm surprised that they're surprised. People want to go on holiday when they want to go, not when they're told they can go. It was never a problem for years and years, yet in recent years, it's suddenly become a big issue.

The way I see it is: What would be the difference if the child were off sick for a week or two?

I think its because our standings in the world are dropping so they are going to blame everyting but the lack of focus, all these asian countries that do better then us they hammer maths and reading and writing into kids we dont and we have far too many subjects which are unnecessary

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