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news on knife crime - the lad was 16 - he shouldnt have been out at 2.00am drinking

holly100 Avatar
8y, 5m agoPosted 8 years, 5 months ago
ok i might get some stick for this -

i know a mum has lost her son - tragedy for any parent - but why was he allowed out drinking at 2 in the morning!!!!! he was 16 ....

the police have come in for stick but we as parents have to take responsibility - not leave it for others


Knife death sparks police pledge

Mr Johnson and Sir Ian unveiled figures of a knife crackdown
The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has vowed to step up police efforts in combating knife crime in the wake of the death of 16-year-old Ben Kinsella.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7485164.stm
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holly100 Avatar
8y, 5m agoPosted 8 years, 5 months ago
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#1
I see your point, but what parent can actually tell their sixteen year old your are not going out, maybe I should rephrase that what parent can "control" a sixteen year old and actually stop them going out at those hours?

At sixteen you can legally leave home and work full time, physically stopping them going out at that age can be classed as false imprisonment, whats the alternative? Kick them out? Then where are you apart from in an even worse situation where you will never know where they are!

It is unfair to blame the parents though, they are stuck in a catch 22 situation with little or no hope.

I dread my kids reaching that age.
#2
u shouldnt lose control of ur kids so much that they are allowed to go out till 2am to have illegal drinks!
#3
It is very sad when young lives are lost this way, but I agree with you. The more we read and hear about some cases, we find that there is a lack of parenting skills. I'm waiting for something bad to happen where I live. I see 10 - 16 year olds on a Friday night (with bags of booze) going to the local wood at around 11 pm. Then they are shouting and screaming their way back at 3 am. Do the parents even care, because I know the police don't seem to?
banned#4
Predikuesi
It is very sad when young lives are lost this way, but I agree with you. The more we read and hear about some cases, we find that there is a lack of parenting skills. I'm waiting for something bad to happen where I live. I see 10 - 16 year olds on a Friday night (with bags of booze) going to the local wood at around 11 pm. Then they are shouting and screaming their way back at 3 am. Do the parents even care, because I know the police don't seem to?


you live anywhere by me:w00t:

The council have actually built a little shelter on a near by field for our youths, so they can do whatever it is they do in the dry:?
#5
Predikuesi
It is very sad when young lives are lost this way, but I agree with you. The more we read and hear about some cases, we find that there is a lack of parenting skills. I'm waiting for something bad to happen where I live. I see 10 - 16 year olds on a Friday night (with bags of booze) going to the local wood at around 11 pm. Then they are shouting and screaming their way back at 3 am. Do the parents even care, because I know the police don't seem to?


ive seen ickle kids out really late hanging out with other ickle members of the oppiste sex acting twice their age..... its kinda sickening how fast they wanna grow up and also where the hell are their parents...... parents dont nip this in the bud the kids are gonna end up drinking at 2am and ultimately face all sorts of dangers!
#6
I dont think its as simple as that.

At 16/17 I started frequenting pubs and clubs indeed I have been to the bar where Ben was drinking that evening.
Its not about the fact that he was out and had been drinking until 2am its the culture of society whereby youngsters carry knifes without any thought of the repercussions which is the issue, the same thing could have equally have happened at 6pm and indeed it does.

When I was 16 having grown up in a similar area I would never have dreamed of carrying a knife or stabbing someone, mugging someone or otherwise commiting any crime against a person.

I do believe parents provide the morale compass that helps guide a young person, in this case Ben was allowed out to drink underage - in my opinon if my kid did this and had respect for others, studied hard, worked to earn there own money and was generally a happy kid I would be happy.

Its not like he was standing around on a street corner after robbing a off license.
#7
crow99;2438242
I dont think its as simple as that.

At 16/17 I started frequenting pubs and clubs indeed I have been to the bar where Ben was drinking that evening. Just because he is out visting pubs in the early hours of the morning what does that have to do with the stabbing?

Its not about the fact that he was out and had been drinking at 2am its the culture of society whereby youngsters carry knifes without any thought of the repercussions which is the issue, the same thing could have equally have happened at 6pm and indeed it does.

Of course the fact that I was drinking at 16 and am a Chelsea season ticket could sterotype me as a hooligan but if we scratch beneath that I have A-Levels, a Uni degree, have always worked hard, had my first part time job at 15, went through Army Officer Training and now 9 years after my "illegal drinking" hold a senior position in a major retailer with my own house and car.... I think my parents did ok


I started drinking at 16 too, but gave it up as a mugs game a few weeks later. It was peer pressure that got me into the pub in the first place. Too be honest, I just don't like the taste of it.
The knife / gun culture has a lot to do with peer pressure, but it can be hindered by parents living up to their responsibilities when the children are still young.
#8
wouldnt be surprised if curfews were set in certain areas - dont know who will patrol though

we have community police in the area - only found out last week they patrol up to 12 a.m

and i would like to think im in a decent area

still dont let my 14 yr old out after 8
#9
Predikuesi
I started drinking at 16 too, but gave it up as a mugs game a few weeks later.


Thats the point, Ben might have reached the same conclusion but some person or persons have taken that opportunity away from him

Predikuesi
It was peer pressure that got me into the pub in the first place. Too be honest, I just don't like the taste of it.
The knife / gun culture has a lot to do with peer pressure, but it can be hindered by parents living up to their responsibilities when the children are still young.


I agree, but there is no indication that Ben had been carrying a knife or a gun, everything I have read and know of his family suggests he was a good kid that was out underage having a few beers.
Teenagers have rebelled throughout the years and always gone out and 'partied' the difference is it was safer.

Its the parents of Ben's attackers that have the major issue here there kids were out on the streets at 2am armed with weapons and fatally stabbed someone.
#10
The thing about drinking at a younger age is it seems exciting because you shouldnt be doing it, I found that at 18 getting into a club and getting served (legally) lost its buzz so drank less on a night out, and actually appreciated the "buzz" of the club itself.

If you make something illegal or at least say they shouldnt be doing it the more they will want too, in the countries where the legal drinking age is lower than ours there is less trouble with kids drinking.
#11
My oldest is 14 and i would not like him out till 2am drinking when he is sixteen but will i be able to stop him ?
#12
waterloo
My oldest is 14 and i would not like him out till 2am drinking when he is sixteen but will i be able to stop him ?


Take away the thing he uses the most. That way he will either realise that its better to do as you say cos it will benefit him or he will get worse.
#13
Predikuesi
It is very sad when young lives are lost this way, but I agree with you. The more we read and hear about some cases, we find that there is a lack of parenting skills. I'm waiting for something bad to happen where I live. I see 10 - 16 year olds on a Friday night (with bags of booze) going to the local wood at around 11 pm. Then they are shouting and screaming their way back at 3 am. Do the parents even care, because I know the police don't seem to?


Its the same where we live...

I think stupid laws have stopped Parents being parents. Children from a very young age have to many rights these days (in schools etc). You are advised to let your children make there own choices in life, well what if those choices are wrong. If the goverment butted out of things and let Parents bring there children up by there rules, the out of control teenagers may have been brought up to respect others instead of causing them harm.
#14
holly100
wouldnt be surprised if curfews were set in certain areas - dont know who will patrol though
we have community police in the area - only found out last week they patrol up to 12 a.m


Thats part of the problem Holly, who will enforce it? The police are over worked and spent to much time with their hands tied. The courts and judges are also 'soft' on knife crime and due to prison overcrowding relcutant to send people to prison.

The parents of the 'worst offenders' know what their kids are like but have often let the situation get out of control from a very early age that later in life they are unable to tell their kid what to do.

Community Support officers are not worth the uniform - they are unable to deal with the most basic situations as they dont have the right authority and are like security guards in stores a visual deterrent walking the streets, through no fault of their own.
#15
crow99;2438318
Its the parents of Ben's attackers that have the major issue here there kids were out on the streets at 2am armed with weapons and fatally stabbed someone.

This is the point I was trying to make myself. While I do not think that Ben's parents are faultless in the matter, I do believe that those carrying weapons have careless parents. It's the family that produces the child!
#16
holly100;2438316
wouldnt be surprised if curfews were set in certain areas - dont know who will patrol though

we have community police in the area - only found out last week they patrol up to 12 a.m

and i would like to think im in a decent area

still dont let my 14 yr old out after 8


Our village has something like this in place called a dispersal order which I think is excellent, rather than try to explain it i'll copy and paste the details replacing the village name with "our village" so if it doesnt sound quite right thats why!
In our village, the residents, District and Parish Councillors highlighted a problem concerning large groups of people, congregating on the main road and behaving in a disorderly manner.Local residents reported incidents of abuse, threats of violence and damage to their property. People became fearful of walking past these groups and using the local shops. In response to this problem, a Dispersal Order was obtained under the Anti Social Behaviour Act 2003. This meant that the Police were given extra powers to deal with groups of troublemakers in our village. The Police could force people to leave the area, for up to 24 hours, if it was felt that they were causing or likely to cause nuisance, alarm or distress to the public.
If anyone refused to leave the area when required, or returned within the 24 hour period, they could be arrested and face up to six months imprisonment and/or a hefty fine. In order to provide positive activities for those who were involved, the Youth Service has sent staff and the Youth Bus into our village


This has been effective as it isn't an all out curfew (which would be unfair to the teens who dont cause trouble) and as it was only the odd group of trouble causers the ones who dont cause trouble are fine.
#17
It should be safe to be out at 2AM drinking.

I don't know why he 'shouldn't' have.

I don't go out drinking 'til 2.

But the kid wasn't doing any harm was he?
#18
harlzter
The thing about drinking at a younger age is it seems exciting because you shouldnt be doing it, I found that at 18 getting into a club and getting served (legally) lost its buzz so drank less on a night out, and actually appreciated the "buzz" of the club itself.

If you make something illegal or at least say they shouldnt be doing it the more they will want too, in the countries where the legal drinking age is lower than ours there is less trouble with kids drinking.


me too,tbh i was going to night clubs from the age of 14
my mother allowed me to go,when i look back now i think she was just glad i was out rather than being at home
i dread my kids reaching that age,what we used to do is say we were staying at each others houses but instead we were out up to allsorts
#19
How times have changed since i was 16 and thats not that long ago :oops:

When i was that age i would never have dared to disrespect my parents and 'gone out regardless' from what i have noticed its a lack of parenting skills as its now-a-days kids having kids...where is the support from the rest of the family not just parents
[mod]#20
i used to work in a court they are so soft on people (youngsters) bailed and re-bailed all the time breaking tagging orders,curfews,breeching bail but they get 'dont do it again' and let go it winds me up!!!
#21
t0mm
It should be safe to be out at 2AM drinking.
I don't know why he 'shouldn't' have. I don't go out drinking 'til 2.
But the kid wasn't doing any harm was he?


I agree.

He studies, worked - earnt his own money and from what I know was generally a nice lad.
Ok its not right to go out till 2am but it should be safe for him to do so.

Give me the choice between a teenager which works hard, studies is respectfull but goes out with their friends drinking until 2am and a teenager which is at home, doesnt work, doesnt study and spends the daytime hanging around street corners I know which I's choose.
#22
t0mm;2438395
It should be safe to be out at 2AM drinking.

I don't know why he 'shouldn't' have.

I don't go out drinking 'til 2.
But the kid wasn't doing any harm was he?


I personally know of three young men (15 & 17 year olds) who were knifed to death. Each one happened in the early hours of the morning. They'd been drinking and got caught up in some bother. The problem is that they put themselves in danger by being out at this time. Today it is like walking into a battlefield after the clubs and bars close. That's ok for adults, but kids need to be at home, or they might meet the crazies out on the streets.
#23
holly100
wouldnt be surprised if curfews were set in certain areas - dont know who will patrol though

we have community police in the area - only found out last week they patrol up to 12 a.m

and i would like to think im in a decent area

still dont let my 14 yr old out after 8


14 yo not allowd out after 8!!! but the again u might live in a city i live in a meduim sized town
#24
*strokes chin*


i know a mum has lost her son - tragedy for any parent - but why was he allowed out drinking at 2 in the morning!!!!! he was 16 ....

the police have come in for stick but we as parents have to take responsibility - not leave it for others




An interesting read. Not for the fact that the kid got stabbed, but for your reponse to it.

The first thing that strikes me about this is the angle you take. You don't even acknowledge the attacker's existance, barely mention the victim, but focus almost entirely on how it's the woman's fault that her son got stabbed. I note as well that you say "I know a mum", rather than "A friend of mine...". Would I be right in suspecting that this mum is someone with whom you've crossed swords with in the past? The overall tone and the blame ("we have to take responsibility", which basically translates to "entirely her responsibility") of this post really makes it sound like you have a problem with the woman, and are almost pleased to see that her son was stabbed, as if it would teach her a lesson or something. It all seems very catty.

Regarding the question though, 16 years old, 2am, drunk. Well, duh. What d'you expect 16 year olds to be doing? Tucked up in bed and sound asleep by 10? Maybe in the idealistic paradise you seem to believe death to be a suitable punishment for disobeying (I mean, you barely stop short at saying that he deserved it), but in the real world, no, watching Doctor Who and going to bed is not the highlight of a weekend. You're just wrong.
banned#25
your asking for trouble when you get pis*ed out of your brains at 2AM and you dont know what you are doing.
#26
bigbob909
14 yo not allowd out after 8!!! but the again u might live in a city i live in a meduim sized town


i live in a small town - and i think 8 is late enough - if she is at a friends house or going to cinema or the likesi allow her later but we pick her up or other parents drop her off


as for tomm - come back in 20 years time when you have kids of your own - singing a different tune

i so sympathise with the kids of 15/16/17 - as you have gangs of this age that are as some state 'feral' - animals dont behave like some of them

still shouldnt be out at 2.in the morning though
#27
holly100
i live in a small town - and i think 8 is late enough - if she is at a friends house or going to cinema or the likesi allow her later but we pick her up or other parents drop her off


as for tomm - come back in 20 years time when you have kids of your own - singing a different tune

i so sympathise with the kids of 15/16/17 - as you have gangs of this age that are as some state 'feral' - animals dont behave like some of them

still shouldnt be out at 2.in the morning though


cotton wool parent

i am 17 and i go out till 2 or 3 am often
#28
Sorry chaps but the U.K is a no go area after 9'o clock in most places. I know its a shame but thats just the way it is. You can blame it on all sorts of things but its only getting worse.
Perhaps more Police so they can carry out spot checks on these kids who want to carry weapons.
#29
Regardless of his activities as a 16 year old teenager, he didn't deserve to die.
#30
Knife crime is actually at it's lowest for years.

The media is obsessed with this **** at the moment for the sake of fear mongering and selling papers/sensationalism.
banned#31
the people who get stabbed are rarely as "innocent" as made out by the media
banned#32
Proximo
the people who get stabbed are rarely as "innocent" as made out by the media


agreed.

There are two sides to every story.
#33
Predikuesi
I personally know of three young men (15 & 17 year olds) who were knifed to death. Each one happened in the early hours of the morning. They'd been drinking and got caught up in some bother. The problem is that they put themselves in danger by being out at this time. Today it is like walking into a battlefield after the clubs and bars close. That's ok for adults, but kids need to be at home, or they might meet the crazies out on the streets.


I know a lad who was 17 knifed to death (aroudnd the corner from me, closer to his house than mine) at 9PM over a ripped coat which he offered to repair.
banned#34
The only people I feel genuinely remorseful for are people like the dad who went out to confront a group of chavs so they kicked him to death,

not some chav who was up to no good (aka anyone under 19 years old who is hanging around in a group after midnight)
#35
At 16 you are of an age where you can legally be married with children.
Also, you can legally drink at 16, the lower age for drinking alcohol is 5 years old.

Was this thread started with any basis, or just another easy way to anonymously slur someone who was violently stabbed to death?
#36
Proximo
The only people I feel genuinely remorseful for are people like the dad who went out to confront a group of chavs so they kicked him to death,



Yeah, thats the sort of thing that gets to me :x

On a positive note this happenned near me the other day when some kn0b heads thought they would try something similar on a poor bloke...........*****


http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2008/07/01/dad-confronted-by-yobs-helped-by-cage-fighter-friend-84229-21206458/

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