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UltimoScorpion Avatar
banned9y, 1m agoPosted 9 years, 1 month ago
Should we be allowed an opinion, without it being put down by another poster, or should we argue when our opinions differ.

Please read this post...

http://www.hotukdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107916

I'd like to continue the discussion between Lester and I away from the OP as we are detracting from the deal point somewhat, however good subject, and so far very good discussion.
UltimoScorpion Avatar
banned9y, 1m agoPosted 9 years, 1 month ago
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#1
We're all free to express our opinions. When someone disagrees it's up to you whether you argue about it or not - I personally don't (or at least I don't think I do...).
#2
Solution use three letters at the end of your post.

IMO

sorted IMO lol
banned#3
Lester Burnham
So what's you issue, then?


My issue, posting an opinion then having someone call it complete rubbish. I dont think thats a very constructive view to adopt. I quote a well known saying 'I dont agree with your opinion, but I would fight for the right for you to have it'. Now I understand that you are merely disagreeing with my opinion, however calling it 'quite patently rubbish' is not the approach to take. It immediately gets people's back up, and causes contempt.
banned#4
MBeeching
We're all free to express our opinions. When someone disagrees it's up to you whether you argue about it or not - I personally don't (or at least I don't think I do...).


Yes you do!....of er, no you dont....oh er yes you do!! :giggle:
banned#5
Alfonse
Solution use three letters at the end of your post.

IMO

sorted IMO lol


So Alfonse you are of the Lester Burham approach, we must state in every post 'THIS IS MY OPINION!' or 'THIS IS FACT!'. Come on, every post on this site is opinion or views, its an excepted norm for forum websites
#6
UltimoScorpion
Should we be allowed an opinion, without it being put down by another poster, or should we argue when our opinions differ.


There's a subtle, yet salient difference between:-

"I think product X is the best in the market"

and:-

"Nothing else lives up to product X and is worth considering".

If you express the latter, then don't be surprised with people saying:-

"Well actually, that's not true, there are other products worth considering, too".

If you are:-

a) not sufficiently robust to deal with such a counter opinion
or
b) so affronted that somebody would offer such a counter opinion

then what you are actually purporting is that nobody else is allowed to counter any opinion.

At no point have I said you're not entitled to your opinion, or that you should shut-up on the subject. I haven't even tried to suggest that you shouldn't express your opinion. All I've merely done, is countered categoric statements, that:-

a) mislead
b) aren't in the best interests of those people needing help and advice

If you can't see that, and are so defensive, and need to keep attempting to appeal to the rules - presumably to instigate some moderation - then perhaps, just for a second, consider what the purpose of having such threads is for.
[admin]#7
I think Lester Burnham actually explains that well. A lot of people seem to state opinion as if it's a fact and then don't understand how someone can disagree.
banned#8
Lester Burham
'quite patently rubbish'


This approach automatically creates a negative response, had you said 'I disagree with your opnion there Scorp, and this is why' I would have probably have backed you up and agreed with you. Its your approach towards other people having a differing view to your own.

What you say goes....no it doesn't, like I say we all have our opinions and are all entitled to them.

The last thing I would do would be to put down someone opinion though, whether stated as fact or not!
#9
UltimoScorpion
So Alfonse you are of the Lester Burham approach, we must state in every post 'THIS IS MY OPINION!' or 'THIS IS FACT!'. Come on, every post on this site is opinion or views, its an excepted norm for forum websites


Woaha Nelly, its helps thats all I'm saying, I'm really not gonna argue on the internet cos its pointless IMO. Its just what you want to take from whats posted, if you want to get up set and irritated by the posts thats your business, personally its a waste if time.

You have the freedom to ignore it and/or to reply to it but what really does it amount to? ........
#10
UltimoScorpion
My issue, posting an opinion then having someone call it complete rubbish.


I didn't call your opinion complete rubbish.

I called this complete rubbish:-

UltimoScorpion
nothing on the market comes close to tomtom for navigation and ease of use


And I stand by that, and I'm quite happy with what I've said about it.

UltimoScorpion
I dont think thats a very constructive view to adopt.


Personally, I don't think it's very constructive to go bleating about every counter to such categoric statements, then go rushing off, quoting rules, presumably in some attempt to appeal to authority and get what I've written moderated.

UltimoScorpion
I quote a well known saying 'I dont agree with your opinion, but I would fight for the right for you to have it'. Now I understand that you are merely disagreeing with my opinion, however calling it 'quite patently rubbish' is not the approach to take.


Well what I've replied with, may offend you. But I don't apologise for that. I don't apologise for expressing the opinion that:-

UltimoScorpion
nothing on the market comes close to tomtom for navigation and ease of use


... is rubbish.

UltimoScorpion
It immediately gets people's back up, and causes contempt.


So perhaps consider not trying to come across as so categoric, or perhaps being a bit more thick skinned about people replying if you don't.

In both threads that I've disputed TomTom being clearly number 1, you don't appear to actually read the requirements or important features that the OP makes, you just seem to blindly advocate TomTom. That being the case, it's perfectly reasonable of me to express my opinion that either:-

a) that may not be the best fit or match
b) the very idea that such a make should clearly override any other potential reasoning for what product should be selected, given some requirements - is clearly wrong
#11
I think the problem comes when people simply say "what a load of ****".

If people disagree with your opinion then fair enough, but they should provide their own opinion based on experiences, etc, rather than just put yours down.
banned#12
Admin
I think Lester Burnham actually explains that well. A lot of people seem to state opinion as if it's a fact and then don't understand how someone can disagree.



Admin every post on this website is opinion of one sort or another, I understand that Lester, and anyone else for that matter can disagree. What I am opposed to is when Lester states 'quite patently rubbish' which will automatically encite a negative response.

Had Lester approached it like he has just done

"Well actually, that's not true, there are other products worth considering, too".


I would have agreed that his opinion had merit.
banned#13
Admin
I think Lester Burnham actually explains that well. A lot of people seem to state opinion as if it's a fact and then don't understand how someone can disagree.

that'll be me then :-D

we all believe in our opinions otherwise we wouldnt bother having one, and yes we do get carried away, but that is down to our beliefs in the opinions we have, and as we think our opinion is right we like for others to benefit from what we believe to be the best, waffle over:-D
banned#14
duckmagicuk2
I think the problem comes when people simply say "what a load of ****".

If people disagree with your opinion then fair enough, but they should provide their own opinion based on experiences, etc, rather than just put yours down.


My point exactly.....er good point, well made. Its all about approach
#15
UltimoScorpion
This approach automatically creates a negative response, had you said 'I disagree with your opnion there Scorp, and this is why' I would have probably have backed you up and agreed with you. Its your approach towards other people having a differing view to your own.


Show me ONE post to that thread where I've merely rubbished somebody's opinion or suggestion. Other people have suggested makes or models.

The only thing I've rubbished is the concept that people should just forget about their requirements and interest, and simply go for one make.

UltimoScorpion
What you say goes....no it doesn't, like I say we all have our opinions and are all entitled to them.


Including me.

UltimoScorpion
The last thing I would do would be to put down someone opinion though, whether stated as fact or not!


And as I said, had you just said:-

"I think product X is the best in the market"

I'd have probably just countered with "There are numerous other competing products on the market, none being clearly and comprehensively superior"

But you effectively said this:-

"Nothing else lives up to product X and is worth considering".

And you don't appear to like this, but that DOES deserve challenge.
banned#16
sassie
that'll be me then :-D

we all believe in our opinions otherwise we wouldnt bother having one, and yes we do get carried away, but that is down to our beliefs in the opinions we have, and as we think our opinion is right we like for others to benefit from what we believe to be the best, waffle over:-D


Again I agree, however if someone immediately rubbished your opinion, you would be defensive to your OP, rather than offensive towards theirs. Right...or not?
#17
I love Onions!
#18
UltimoScorpion
My point exactly.....er good point, well made. Its all about approach


And presumably - with this appeal to rules and authority - you just believe that my approach deserves scrutiny, whereas such absolute-ness should go unchallenged?

If you believe I should be careful about my wording - then by the same token, so should you.
banned#19
Alfonse
Woaha Nelly, its helps thats all I'm saying, I'm really not gonna argue on the internet cos its pointless IMO. Its just what you want to take from whats posted, if you want to get up set and irritated by the posts thats your business, personally its a waste if time.

You have the freedom to ignore it and/or to reply to it but what really does it amount to? ........



Can I just point out that this is a DISCUSSION, not an argument. I have a lot of respect for Lester Burnham, and the majority of his post are very intelligent. We are not arguing we are discussing the merits of posting and opinion.

And I think so far very constructive
banned#20
sometimes things should be left unsaid, or then they turn into the Hotdeals bun fight .. littlewoods deal being the obvious http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/boese/a018.gif :roll:
#21
UltimoScorpion
Again I agree, however if someone immediately rubbished your opinion


Let's get this straight. What I actually rubbished was this statement:-

UltimoScorpion
nothing on the market comes close to tomtom for navigation and ease of use


That's not you saying "I think product X is best" - which wouldn't be rubbish, but simply your opinion; you are simply saying that nothing else on the market compares. And uncomfortable for you as it might be, that quite simply is rubbish.
#22
Looooooong
banned#23
Lester Burnham
And presumably - with this appeal to rules and authority - you just believe that my approach deserves scrutiny, whereas such absolute-ness should go unchallenged?

If you believe I should be careful about my wording - then by the same token, so should you.


I hate to state the childishness, but 'you started it!' I was perhaps careless with my wording once you had already rubbished my opinion.

I stated an opinion, that I believed to be of interest to the OP. You blew that out of the water, and made me out to be some sort of blithering idiot that didn't have a clue.
banned#24
Lester Burnham
Let's get this straight. What I actually rubbished was this statement:-



That's not you saying "I think product X is best" - which wouldn't be rubbish, but simply your opinion; you are simply saying that nothing else on the market compares. And uncomfortable for you as it might be, that quite simply is rubbish.



See again this all comes back to wording correctly. Why when every post on this forum is someones opinion do we have to state 'IMO' or 'I Think' at the begininng of every post, just to appease those that struggle to grasp the concept of a forum, where opnion is stated on a minute by minute basis.
banned#25
UltimoScorpion
Again I agree, however if someone immediately rubbished your opinion, you would be defensive to your OP, rather than offensive towards theirs. Right...or not?

errrr yes i think so, but this seems to just be a domestic between two members so i will butt out here :-D
banned#26
oooh let the bun fight start http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/boese/a014.gif


can you give me 5 to make a cuppa :-D
#27
Apparently this is a "discussion", I got proper told like, you know...

:-)
#28
I would really like to hear the for and against arguments for the controversial statement below

"Nothing on the market comes close to tomtom for navigation and ease of use"
#29
BerthaBlue
I would really like to hear the for and against arguments for the controversial statement below

"Nothing on the market comes close to tomtom for navigation and ease of use"



Depends on what market you go to...:p
banned#30
Lester Burnham
And as I said, had you just said:-

"I think product X is the best in the market"

I'd have probably just countered with "There are numerous other competing products on the market, none being clearly and comprehensively superior"

But you effectively said this:-

"Nothing else lives up to product X and is worth considering".

And you don't appear to like this, but that DOES deserve challenge.



So this comes down to if you had said and I had said.

If I had stated that it was my opinion, you would have disagreed courteously.

And...If you had said a courteous disagreement we would not have had this conversation.


So is the point we are both trying to make that we all need to be a little bit more courteous in our posts?
banned#31
ok steaming mug of tea, and music on ...

let the insults fly then :giggle:
#32
UltimoScorpion
So this comes down to if you had said and I had said.


Que?
#33
Well if you must know Garmin are the best on the market and nothing else comes close.............*ducks for cover*

In all seriousness though guys, what does it matter...really....ok so Scorp shouldn't have been so over zealous about his TomTom endorsement (no need to ask who he works for :giggle:) and Lester could have been more diplomatic but seriously you were both trying to help the OP, can I suggest you agree to disagree and partake in a virtual shaking of hands? :thumbsup:
#34
UltimoScorpion
I hate to state the childishness, but 'you started it!'


Well I'm sorry, but that is childish.

I didn't start anything. I just rubbished a suggestion that there was only one make worth considering. And I stand by that.

UltimoScorpion
I was perhaps careless with my wording once you had already rubbished my opinion.


How so? That was your first post to that thread, that I replied to.
banned#35
BerthaBlue
I would really like to hear the for and against arguments for the controversial statement below

"Nothing on the market comes close to tomtom for navigation and ease of use"


For

I have personal experience of tomtom, sony, navman and garmin, and in my opinion tomtom races ahead in ease of use and screen navigation.

Tomtom is the market leader of this type of product, they only do satellite navigation equipment, and concentrate on pushing the market forward in a positive way.

Against

It was not stated as opinion, which is Lesters whole argument

In Lesters opinion, there are better models on the market
#36
Who was it that said "Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one"?
#37
UltimoScorpion
See again this all comes back to wording correctly. Why when every post on this forum is someones opinion do we have to state 'IMO' or 'I Think' at the begininng of every post, just to appease those that struggle to grasp the concept of a forum, where opnion is stated on a minute by minute basis.


I'm not trying to mandate you prefix every post.

All I'm saying is that if you say "I think product X is the best" that's one thing.

If you effectively say "nothing else on the market compares with vendor X" that's completely another.

You seem to be advocating one type of political correctness, in complete absence of another.
banned#38
megalomaniac
(no need to ask who he works for :giggle:)


Superdrug! I just really like tomtom:giggle:
#39
thesaint
Who was it that said "Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one"?


Dirty Harry :-D
banned#40
you cant beat a good road atlas.. good for leaning on etc , and for those with partners , giving a good beating to when they send you the wrong way or cant read the map..thats most women then :whistling:

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