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PayPal dispute - Need Help

Ravster Avatar
9y, 3m agoPosted 9 years, 3 months ago
Hello,


Right, bought an item off ebay, was described as new. Received the item yesterday morning, opened it, only to find that the box has got dirty marks on it, the edges are worn and torn and has infact been opened, and simply been resealed.

The item in question is a Limited Edition Pearl White Gamecube console.


As soon as I received the item yesterday morning, I immediately contacted the seller, explaining that I want a full refund as they have lied, and told her about the condition of the box. She offered a full refund, but would not refund the cost of me sending it back to her because she was unhappy with me calling her a 'liar.' I then took out a dispute with PayPal, and posted my comments.

This evening she has escalated it to a claim, soon after I posted 19 up close and detailed pictures of the gamecube box and the damages I have stated above . Her reply was that

'The only conclusion I can come to is that further damage, deliberate or otherwise, has been sustained after delivery. I therefore withdraw my offer of a full refund as I feel that a fast one is being pulled.'


I can not believe she is actually saying that I have damaged the gamecube box so soon after I received it yesterday morning. The damages on the box are of incredible age and evidence of deterioration over time, rather than immediate damage by me. Therefore, it is impossible for me to have caused such damage within 24 hours.

The thing I don't like is that PayPal may go on her side with this due to me being an ebay member for less than 30 days and having only 4 feedback. So I am worried that I may lose this even though she is blatantly lying.
Other Links From Paypal:
Ravster Avatar
9y, 3m agoPosted 9 years, 3 months ago
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#1
In most cases Paypal is the buyers friend and now its been esclated to a claim,when Paypal have decided the outcome,which most likely be that you have to return it by means that you have a tracking number,like by courier or Royal Mail Special Delivery,you then provide the tracking number,you then get a refund. It will be you that needs to pay the return costs. You will then get a refund of the original payment you sent.

A couple mths back,I bought some helium balloons off eBay,paid by Paypal,turned out they were in some way faulty,asked the seller for refund,they said nothing wrong with goods,I said well the instructiosn say 3-5 hrs inflated time,these balloons stayed up maybe 15mins on the ones I did test. Anyway I opened dispute as seller wouldn't refund,I had to return the balloons and helium,I got refund but the return costs were left with me.
#2
Going by Special Delivery the item shouldn't be anymore than about £8.50 ish to send,a courier will be a bit less but I recommend Royal Mail Special Delivery,personally think its more reliable and it get there next day by 1pm if posted to get there on a weekday.Also you haven't got to wait in for courier to turn up,issue if they let you down,then you need rebook and so on. Paypal give you about a week or so to get the item returned and for you to supply the tracking number.
#3
Just got this response from PayPal:

' We have concluded our investigation into your Buyer Claim.

Based on PayPal's definition of significantly not-as-described, this claim
does not qualify for a refund.We found the seller to have accurately
represented the item(s) in question.'

Can't believe they have favoured the seller even after she has blatantly lied and I have provided pictures and alot of proof.

I provided more information just 4 hours before I got this email and I highly doubt they even looked at it.

What can I do now? as I am being done over by the seller.
#4
Ravster
Just got this response from PayPal:

' We have concluded our investigation into your Buyer Claim.

Based on PayPal's definition of significantly not-as-described, this claim
does not qualify for a refund.We found the seller to have accurately
represented the item(s) in question.'

Can't believe they have favoured the seller even after she has blatantly lied and I have provided pictures and alot of proof.

I provided more information just 4 hours before I got this email and I highly doubt they even looked at it.

What can I do now? as I am being done over by the seller.



Ring them up m8 ............ And good luck your need it :thumbsup:
#5
Ravster
Just got this response from PayPal:

' We have concluded our investigation into your Buyer Claim.

Based on PayPal's definition of significantly not-as-described, this claim
does not qualify for a refund.We found the seller to have accurately
represented the item(s) in question.'

Can't believe they have favoured the seller even after she has blatantly lied and I have provided pictures and alot of proof.

I provided more information just 4 hours before I got this email and I highly doubt they even looked at it.

What can I do now? as I am being done over by the seller.


Closed Paypal disputes can be re-opened, buy I've only heard about it happening a few times.
What was the item number?
How much was it?
I know you paid by Paypal but was that payment funded by a Credit Card, Debit Card or 'cleared' funds?

One way of looking at it is, you had a damaged widget, you found somebody selling that same widget but brand new. You buy it and then put a dispute in for item not as described saying your old one is the one you received. Paypal don't know you are scamming the seller and have to decide. Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying this is the case, but trying to explain how Paypal came to their decision.
The reason I think it went against you is that you are pretty new and your seller has some selling feedback.
I always use a UV marker on my items, just in case.
#6
Hold on at first i thought you meant the GC was damaged after reading again its just the box??? I presume the seller meant the GC was "as new" TBH i cant see why you are complaining? Have you got the item number so we can see the description for clarification? What was the pictures in the listing?
#7
^ It's for a limited edition thing though, so assume Ravster wanted it in mint condition?

Ravster

As soon as I received the item yesterday morning, I immediately contacted the seller, explaining that I want a full refund as they have lied, and told her about the condition of the box. She offered a full refund, but would not refund the cost of me sending it back to her because she was unhappy with me calling her a 'liar.' I then took out a dispute with PayPal, and posted my comments.


Have to take her side there, I'll bend over backwards to help my buyers on the odd occasions things go awry if they are polite, but if I got a pissy email calling me a liar, I'd go out of my way to make it as difficult as possible for them. Tip for the future perhaps, no matter how angry you are or how much you currently think the seller is a *bleep* - play nice, at least to start off with.
#8
Does anyone have a proper contact number for PayPal? Every time I try to call them and use their automated line, I hit deadends and get a recorded message with my 'answer' and thats it.
#9
have you returned the item or do you still have it ?
#10
Item number in question is: 260149556924

Paid £45 for it through Paypal via credit card. The picture in the listing makes it out be look new, but on delivery and inspection it clearly wasn't. They have deicided that a refund will not issued so I'm stuck with the GC. And like Starlet said, it was a limited edition pak and I am a collector and its value decreases if the item box is damaged.

Heres the pics I took:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/2.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/3.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/4.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/5.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/7.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/8.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/9.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/11.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/12.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/13.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/14.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/15.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/16.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/17.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/18.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Ravster/Gamecube%20ebay%20lied%20pics/19.jpg
#11
It certainly looks like a totally different box doesn't it? Surprised paypal found in their favour (did you send them these pics?), it's sold as 'new' and it's blatently not new.

Interesting to note they listed several really high priced items, all using stock photos, that went unsold...soon after your auction. I have no idea what thay means, Dino might be able to interpret something from it, it just struck me as a little odd.

http://www.goofbay.com/ebay_seller_history_tool.html?gsl_username=beckeie&gsl_days=120&gsl_include=both&gsl_show_fees=on&gsl_submit=Get+History%21
#12
I posted all the pics in the dispute but looks like the PayPal reviewer didn't even bother looking at 'em as it was clear that the seller had lied. I had added more information about 4 hours before I got the email stating the outcome and that info probably didn't even get looked at, as it wasn't posted on my paypal dispute page; just the old messages.

Also adding she had not traded in over a year before I won her item.
#13
I think you are onto something Starlet.
As you said, they have used 'Stock' pictures, but the 'Trolls' are actual pictures. The background is a wooden 'top' (maybe a table) and a blue wall. The GameCube picture appears to be on a green carpet. I don't think that type of green goes with a person that has blue walls. I'm thinking that picture has been 'taken' from another auction by a different seller.

OP, if you can find the picture your seller used on another auction you should have a good case and Paypal will have no choice but to re-open the case.
You will need to look at each of these:-
[COLOR=red]Here[/COLOR]
There's only around 700 finished listings. Look at each one for the same picture as your sellers.





edit,
Thanks you Admin for sorting the ebay 'help' links out.
#14
Erm, maybe I'm missing something here, but -

seller
Rare Limited Edition Pearl White Nintendo GameCube Pack with Mario Smash Football Game!!!

You are bidding on a brand new, rare limited edition Nintendo GameCube pack - unopened, in it's original box and packaging, with full instruction booklet and warranty details. This is the PAL version of the console. This includes:

* Limited Edition Pearl White GameCube console

* Limited Edition Pearl White GameCube controller

* Nintendo GameCube Power Supply

* Nintendo GameCube Stereo Audio/Video Cable

* Euro Connector Plug

AND...

...MARIO SMASH FOOTBALL Game!!!



'Forget all those boring things about football: rules, referees, fair play... There is only one thing you have to keep in mind: ANYTHING GOES!

Play the craziest five-a-side football tournaments of the Mushroom Kingdom. Choose the captain and sidekicks of your team and compete for the Bowser Cup! Create your own tournament of up to 16 players! Play with or against up to three other friends!'



Thank you for looking and Happy Bidding!!!



Besides the fact that the box had been opened, how had it been misdescribed? I can't see anything there saying that the box was in impeccable condition, and that it's not in impeccable condition, well, who cares? The whole point of the box is that it gets damaged so the insides don't. It doesn't have any resale value besides what you paid for it, and the console itself, I assume, works fine. So what's the problem?

I'm with PayPal and the seller on this one. And trying to score a refund because the box has been opened? Strikes me as trying to pull a fast one, too.
#15
Condition: New

That's where the problem is, surely? If you list an item as new on ebay then it's meant to be new, as you'd buy it in a shop. (right?) And if you got that delivered, brand new from amazon...you wouldn't be happy, would you?
#16
I don't see any mention anywhere that the console has been used before. What's to say it wasn't taken out of the box to test it?
#17
I'm with Starlet again on this.
If it was me I'd be expecting the box to be 'Brand New' just as the console is meant to be. A damaged box shows neglect.

dxx, What if this had been bought for you as a present, wouldn't you think it was 'second hand' by looking at the box?
#18
Had a look at the completed listings for both games and consoles, but can't find a matching photo.

I had told the seller on the day I received the item that it was not brand new and the box had worn and very tatty edges. This is the first line of what she replied with:

"[FONT=Arial, Verdana][SIZE=2]The item is brand new. It is end of the line stock and has been sat on the shelf in a stock room for a while."

[FONT=Verdana]The fact that she even admitted it was an end of stock line and therefore sitting on a shelf for a while, presumably gathering dust should be enough to make PayPal favour my side.

How do Paypal make such decisions? Ridiculous.


What shall I do now? I'm going to contact PayPal again with the info posted here and see whether they open the dispute. And make sure they actually read the info I give them.
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#19
dinosteveus
I'm with Starlet again on this.
If it was me I'd be expecting the box to be 'Brand New' just as the console is meant to be. A damaged box shows neglect.

dxx, What if this had been bought for you as a present, wouldn't you think it was 'second hand' by looking at the box?


Er, I'd determine whether it was second-hand or not by looking at what was inside the box.
#20
Ravster
Had a look at the completed listings for both games and consoles, but can't find a matching photo.

I had told the seller on the day I received the item that it was not brand new and the box had worn and very tatty edges. This is the first line of what she replied with:

"[FONT=Arial, Verdana][SIZE=2]The item is brand new. It is end of the line stock and has been sat on the shelf in a stock room for a while."

[FONT=Verdana]The fact that she even admitted it was an end of stock line and therefore sitting on a shelf for a while, presumably gathering dust should be enough to make PayPal favour my side.

How do Paypal make such decisions? Ridiculous.


What shall I do now? I'm going to contact PayPal again with the info posted here and see whether they open the dispute. And make sure they actually read the info I give them.
[/FONT]


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You're arguing now that you should get a full refund because the box was sitting in stock for a while?

I think you should try writing a list of claims made by the seller, and inarguable ways in which these claims have been proven to be untrue, and present that to Paypal. As it is, you're not making any rational sense at all, and that does not help your case.
#21
^Right, if it states brand new, it means ALL of the item, not PART of the item, must be brand new; in this case, the outside should be new.


dxx
The whole point of the box is that it gets damaged so the insides don't.


If you go order a new book from Amazon, and you receive the book in a very tatty state, clearly signifying it has been used, would you classify it as brand new just because the cover has been damaged and is there only there to protect the inside of the book, ie the pages ?

Hmm...




ps, useful replies would be very appreciated again.
#22
Ravster

If you go order a new book from Amazon, and you receive the book in a very tatty state, clearly signifying it has been used, would you classify it as brand new just because the cover has been damaged and is there only there to protect the inside of the book, ie the pages ?



Well, no, because the cover is an integral part of a book. Not at all relevant to what we have here.

A box is something intended purely to protect the product (which is kept deep inside the box) during transit, and it can be happily thrown out once it has served its purpose. The box and product are seperate units. You haven't said anything about the Gamecube being in any way tarnished, so I can only assume that the actual item is in perfect condition. You seem to be making a big fuss all because of a bit of dust and a few scratches on the box.


ps, useful replies would be very appreciated again.


Erm, stop obsessing over a few scratches?
#23
Ravster
Had a look at the completed listings for both games and consoles, but can't find a matching photo.

I had told the seller on the day I received the item that it was not brand new and the box had worn and very tatty edges. This is the first line of what she replied with:

"[FONT=Arial, Verdana][SIZE=2]The item is brand new. It is end of the line stock and has been sat on the shelf in a stock room for a while."

[FONT=Verdana]The fact that she even admitted it was an end of stock line and therefore sitting on a shelf for a while, presumably gathering dust should be enough to make PayPal favour my side.

How do Paypal make such decisions? Ridiculous.


What shall I do now? I'm going to contact PayPal again with the info posted here and see whether they open the dispute. And make sure they actually read the info I give them.
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[/SIZE][/FONT]


No, not ridiculous, I explained how.
To be honest, without new 'evidence' Paypal ain't gonna change their decision. Why should they?
Why don't you sell it yourself on ebay, describe the boxes condition correctly, you never know you could make a profit.
#24
dxx
Well, no, because the cover is an integral part of a book. Not at all relevant to what we have here.

A box is something intended purely to protect the product (which is kept deep inside the box) during transit, and it can be happily thrown out once it has served its purpose. The box and product are seperate units. You haven't said anything about the Gamecube being in any way tarnished, so I can only assume that the actual item is in perfect condition. You seem to be making a big fuss all because of a bit of dust and a few scratches on the box.




Erm, stop obsessing over a few scratches?

Why are you going on about it, you're not helping the guy.
Having a new box means something to the OP, so lay off him. He must have his reasons and if you'd looked at all of the pictures he posted something ain't right.
1 Like #25
dinosteveus
Why are you going on about it, you're not helping the guy.
Having a new box means something to the OP, so lay off him. He must have his reasons and if you'd looked at all of the pictures he posted something ain't right.


If he's getting as wound up as this over a few scratches (19 photographs uploaded and sent? Come on) on a box, I suspect he's beyond any sort of help that I could possibly give him.

I think the problem arises in the fact that the buyer is a collector, and collectors are very particular about the quality of the boxes, and very specific about things being unopened. As this box is scuffed, it loses some value. In collector-world, the ideal is that everything is placed in an dark, airtight cleanroom at 16.5c and stored there until an item is sold, whereupon a small team of men in space suits must retrieve the item using levitation, and then place it gently into a box the size of a tank, filled with the most delicate little lint-free cotton balls on the market so that it may reach its destination in perfect condition. Unfortunately, in the real-world, people have little regard for the outer cladding of an item's container, and happily store it somewhere where it might gather dust, suffer bashed edges, or pick up a few scuffs. Fact is, no indication is given by the seller that the box was in perfect order, and from what I can gather, there's no indication that the buyer even asked. So, he has no comeback at all, other than to perhaps re-sell the GameCube he is "stuck with".
#26
The pixs that you took of the box is the same as the one on ebay. if you zoom in on the ebay pix you can tell its the same. I would say that he listed as new wen its not but! He could say that it got dirty marks, worn and torn by the carrier so he would have to make the claim well thats if he can be assed to do so

Your in a no win im sorry to say. I would just resell it
#27
Hey some people are funny about boxes, OK? I like boxes too, and getting something new in a box with so much as a dented corner makes me sulk lol

Ravster bought something sold as new, was expecting it to come in mint condition and it hasn't, they have the right to be a little upset by that if they want.

I do think you're just gonna have to suck it up now though, paypal dispute is over & without any major new evidence they aren't going to change their mind :( I'd just either keep it now or try sell it back on (oorrr send a groveling email to the seller, apologising if you handled it badly, but explaining you are really unhappy with your purchase and if there's annnnything they could do yada yada).
#28
How was it posted to you Ravster? Did you have to sign for it?
#29
To be honest i think 'calling her a liar' may have changed her feeling towards you. I have learnt that the hard way - i have been through a few disputes with sellers / buyers. The only way to approach it is with dignity - even if you feel you have been ripped off.

Paypal is c**p. I had a claim against me in the past from a buyer who claimed that someone else had used his account. My feeling was it was their son or daughter who used it. Needless to say i lost out. Never trust paypal:x
#30
I am not even going to bother with you, dxx.

merlinthehappypig
How was it posted to you Ravster? Did you have to sign for it?

Was posted via standard parcels.


I may just have to unwillingly suck up to the seller and see what they say. Or just sell it on.
#31
Ravster
Was posted via standard parcels.


All Ebay purchases paid for by Paypal have to be sent by a method which is trackable online. Standard parcels does not meet this criteria and if you had filed a claim for non-delivery with Paypal you would have won, regardless of any other communication between yourself and the seller. The seller has to be able to provide a tracking number, which they cannot. Without this they automatically lose each and every case for non-delivery, even though they can show that you have received it from your communication with them. Paypal will ignore this. I suspect you could still file a claim for non-receipt and win. You can always send the item back once you have your money as you sound like a totally honest person.

I'm not suggesting that you do this, merely pointing out the facts. Poor sellers use every trick in the book to con buyers, especially those new to Ebay and sometimes you have to be prepared to play them at their own game to get justice.
#32
I think you have learnt a hard lesson with ebay and PayPal

but as previously mention there *can* be two sides to these situations

Never fully trust a sellrer and their descriptions - if there is something not fully described in the auction that is important to you ask the seller a question. This serves two purposes, 1. to get a written statement about the feature you have questioned and 2. to gauge the sellers attitute / responsiveness to buyers.

Also, as previously mentioned, check the method of shipment - PayPal insist on a traceable method, so I am surprised this seller did not use / offer this, and BTW recorded deliverey ois not deemed as traceable by PayPal.

But on the other hand never fully trust a buyer. if I ever sell high value items on eBay, I do try a describe the item as fully as possible, but always take photos of any distiguishing marks, serial numbers, imei numbers etc and I always use a newspaper with the date in the photo as the background. Then if I get a complaint from a buyer and they do try to send back another similar item, I also have proof.

And yes I have had this once with a mobile phone - but my photo of the phone with imei on the screen against a newspaper background soon caused the buyer to retreat....

Also on a cynical note, its also possible that the seller has withdrawn the funds from paypal so paypal would have to chase her for a recovery - they took the easy option - maybe.....
#33
merlinthehappypig
All Ebay purchases paid for by Paypal have to be sent by a method which is trackable online. Standard parcels does not meet this criteria and if you had filed a claim for non-delivery with Paypal you would have won, regardless of any other communication between yourself and the seller. The seller has to be able to provide a tracking number, which they cannot. Without this they automatically lose each and every case for non-delivery, even though they can show that you have received it from your communication with them. Paypal will ignore this. I suspect you could still file a claim for non-receipt and win. You can always send the item back once you have your money as you sound like a totally honest person.

I'm not suggesting that you do this, merely pointing out the facts. Poor sellers use every trick in the book to con buyers, especially those new to Ebay and sometimes you have to be prepared to play them at their own game to get justice.


Hehehehe, I had a feeling that's where you were going when you asked. Unfortunately he cannot start another dispute. That's it I'm afraid, only one 'dispute' per item. If he'd have taken that option, the first time around, then he would have won, it was the win win option, also theft.
#34
dinosteveus
Hehehehe, I had a feeling that's where you were going when you asked. Unfortunately he cannot start another dispute. That's it I'm afraid, only one 'dispute' per item. If he'd have taken that option, the first time around, then he would have won, it was the win win option, also theft.


Only theft, Steve, if he had kept the item. I didn't say that he should keep the item as well - I clearly said that he should return it when he had the refund. I did wonder whether the dispute could be opened again, but obviously it can't, so he has learnt a hard lesson, but not one that he deserved, going on the evidence.

I still use Ebay, both as a seller and buyer, but oh so carefully these days, even with 4 years experience.

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