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Privatisation of the NHS

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Just out of interest what do people on HUKD think of privatisation of the NHS? I hadn't realised that Richard Bransons Virgin Care is such a major player in our NHS until last night when talking to fr… Read More
scoffer1 Avatar
1m, 2w agoPosted 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Just out of interest what do people on HUKD think of privatisation of the NHS? I hadn't realised that Richard Bransons Virgin Care is such a major player in our NHS until last night when talking to friends in the medical profession.
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scoffer1 Avatar
1m, 2w agoPosted 1 month, 2 weeks ago
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#1
Would be the best thing to happen. There has been so much corruption in the higher levels of the NHS for years. About time the back handers were stopped. Any time people get hold of public money it is seen as free and a chance to line their own pockets. The expense claims are enough to rival MPs.

Unfortunately the public just see the front line staff doing a great job so keep the sense of pride and "it's our baby" type of attitude so privatisation has to be done via stealth.

Edited By: MikeT on May 07, 2017 14:20: swearing may cause post to be removed
1 Like #2
It has to happen to some extent unless more money is invested. The NHS needs to find another source of income and unfortunately that will either come from selling/sharing health information or requring a passport to attain anything above lifesaving healthcare.
3 Likes #3
Nope, just another way for the Tories to line the pockets of their mates with public money (see prisons, rail, mail etc). I pity the deluded people who think otherwise, regardless of the fairly large inefficiency in the current NHS.
#4
Themadcow
Nope, just another way for the Tories to line the pockets of their mates with public money (see prisons, rail, mail etc). I pity the deluded people who think otherwise, regardless of the fairly large inefficiency in the current NHS.

Yep.........
#5
Themadcow
Nope, just another way for the Tories to line the pockets of their mates with public money (see prisons, rail, mail etc). I pity the deluded people who think otherwise, regardless of the fairly large inefficiency in the current NHS.
Agree too
#6
They will be able to serve more people because it costs less per operation with no reduction in quality of care (this model is widely used in continental Europe).
Your choice is therefore either to serve fewer people and have everything nationalised or help more people and accept privatisation. At some point people have to drop their dogmatic objection to privatisation
#7
No it shouldn't be privatised, it should be overhauled with a few top business leaders put in charge and then run in the manor of a private business. No easy rides or union protection, no gold pensions, treatment only with proof of nationality.... Involving private business just replaces inefficiency, with profits, greed and corruption. You only have to look at Dentists and GP's to see why privatisation is a bad idea.

Edited By: mtc1 on May 07, 2017 09:53
#8
The truth is somewhere between THEMADCOW and MATT1982VILLA's view. The views are diametrically opposed, which suggests that both are right and wrong in parts.
IMHO the best thing for the NHS, would be to De-politicise it. Put it in the hands of an independent body with a charter that is agreed on by all political parties. Most importantly, we the people, need to agree on how much of our national wealth we are willing to spend on healthcare and stick to it. This may mean that other sacred cows of the right or left get less funds, so be it. It is widely held that the NHS is our dearest national possession, it needs to govern itself and know its spending limits.
#9
matt1982villa
Would be the best thing to happen. There has been so much corruption in the higher levels of the NHS for years. About time the back handers were stopped. Any time people get hold of public money it is seen as free and a chance to line their own pockets. The expense claims are enough to rival MPs.
Unfortunately the sh*t thick public just see the front line staff doing a great job so keep the sense of pride and "it's our baby" type of attitude so privatisation has to be done via stealth.

I would agree if the Tories had not devalued the NHS since their takeover in preparation for a sell off. Whilst you may be correct the tories way never seems to tackle the problem, high earners not paying their tax? well lets just tax the low earners more to make up for it and lower the high level tax RATHER than tackling the problem head on. NHS high levels not spending correctly? lets just devalue it so i can sell it at a lower cost to my mate he doesn't wanna pay full price. In that time how many people are dying as a result?

This is an old article just look at the chart, I did see a recent one but cant find it

Even if healthcare remains free at the beginning eventually they'll start charging depending on what the circumstances are.
#10
No to privatisation because profit and giving people the treatment they need will not work.

Employ Digby Jones who is a top man and knows how to get a business running efficiently.

https://www.northern-powerhouse-conference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Digby-Jones-union-jack-014.jpg
#11
The NHS is very well run i think in a survey in came second in the world, The Express and Mail are told to run negative stories about it as the tptb want it to privatised.
#12
airbus330
The truth is somewhere between THEMADCOW and MATT1982VILLA's view. The views are diametrically opposed, which suggests that both are right and wrong in parts.
IMHO the best thing for the NHS, would be to De-politicise it. Put it in the hands of an independent body with a charter that is agreed on by all political parties. Most importantly, we the people, need to agree on how much of our national wealth we are willing to spend on healthcare and stick to it. This may mean that other sacred cows of the right or left get less funds, so be it. It is widely held that the NHS is our dearest national possession, it needs to govern itself and know its spending limits.

How dare you come on here and give a sensible reply! ;)

The NHS doesn't actually have too many managers - or at least not in clinical areas.

The NHS is one of the most efficient providers of healthcare in the world - much more efficient that the private systems.
The main inefficiency issues are down to political targets and the internal market.
The last tory and labour governments have **** the nhs over with political interfering and privatisation.
There are stupid amounts of time and money wasted in the political bureaucracy, PFI and a stupid and fake market.
Gov policies elsewhere throw costs onto the nhs that should be dealt with elsewhere. Social care etc.

The NHS has already been cut to such an extent that it is breaking down and costs are going to go up because there is going to be far more "fire fighting" to deal with stuff that ought to be handled properly.

Doctors and nurses are leaving in droves because of the working conditions and as a result rhe number of locums (costing far more) is increasing.
#13
The simple answer to this is spend a higher percentage of our GDP on health AND social care. we all have high healthcare expectation we should pay for it at a similar level to other European countries
#14
The NHS is a farce the way it is being managed. Privatisation is needed to inject some financial management into all the mismanagement and bureaucracy.
#15
mutley1
The NHS is a farce the way it is being managed. Privatisation is needed to inject some financial management into all the mismanagement and bureaucracy.

Except the mismanagement and bureaucracy is because of the privatisation that has already happened.
#16
NHS managers are used by politicians as a way to rally the uninformed against the NHS such as Trump has used Obama care is the USA. I would dread to aim more for a privatised American type system costing us all vastly more and cover not provided for a slightest of reasons.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/fact-or-fiction-the-nhs-has-too-many-managers
#17
Private companies often cherry pick which services they will take over.

The money making things like elective cataract surgery are easy pickings.

Unfortunately, the non-profit making (ie loss making) services such as emergency surgery, emergency medical problems (heart attack, stroke etc) are not popular with the private companies.

For an NHS hospital, the money made by the profitable services subsidises the cost of providing emergency care.

With private companies cherry picking, the profit goes to share holders, leaving even less money for the NHS hospital to provide care for you when you or your loved one has a heart attack.

It is however possible for a private company to take over a hospital completely.

Circle is a large private provider and was the first private company to take over a NHS hospital completely

They took over Hinchingbrooke in 2010.

They were very keen to show that they would be successful and if this worked well, then it is likely that they would be extremely keen to do the same at other NHS hospitals.

In January 2015 Circle announced that because Hinchingbrooke Hospital was "no longer [financially] viable under current terms" it wanted to withdraw from operating the hospital under the exit terms of the contract.[23] Later the same day it was revealed that the Care Quality Commission had recommended the Trust should be placed into special measures after it was rated ‘inadequate’ on the questions of whether it was caring, safe and well led.

Food for thought.
#18
For wot it worth .Believe that the NHS & private will work together .The private section should deal minor injuries & ingrown toenails etc .The NHS should deal with the more complex .
I'm a leftist this is my opinion as its the only way for the NHS to survive under the Tories "where Greed is Good & acceptable!"
Not worried about getting Downvoted or negative feedback :/
#19
Hospitals are already basically private. They bid on prices for procedures, that's why sometimes private clinics are used for procedures, they bidded a better rate for something that the local ['private'] hospital can do.

Just look at the wages, heads of hospitals are earning at least 3-5x the wage of the head of NHS England. Hospital management are also paid a lot more than normal NHS managers, as 'private' organisations they're not restricted by Agenda for Change rates like the rest of the NHS and the main staff.

I'm against it, but I don't think the NHS budget should be increased either, that's just putting a bandage on a bullet wound. So much money is wasted, give more and it'll just see the amount wasted increase. The actual problems need to be fixed instead.

Edited By: dcx_badass on May 07, 2017 11:42
1 Like #20
"PFI deals became popular in government from the end of the 1990s, under the then chancellor Gordon Brown, because they allowed ministers to secure large sums to invest in popular projects, such as new schools and hospitals, without paying any money up front.
Repayments are made over a long time scale, usually between 25 and 30 years but occasionally as long as 60 years, but at a high rate of interest.
That meant that large debts were stored up for future taxpayers – which now have to be repaid.
Under a Treasury sleight of hand, PFI debts do not form part of the deficit balance sheet."

PFI is the single biggest reason why politicians should be barred from having anything to do with the NHS.
#21
What I don't understand is the cuts being made to the NHS because we supposedly have no money to fund it yet we can send god know how much money to other countries (especially ones that aren't in need of it) makes my blood boil.

Our local children's ward is no longer open at night which now means the NHS are paying £14k a month for ambulances to transport children after 8pm. It's costing that much because there's a shortage of ambulances in the area so having them come from down south to transfer between hospitals. Absolutely crazy .
#22
Don't forget that any privatisation must cost substantially more simply because of the need for profit and shareholder dividends....and, of course, Branson's island that he uses to entertain politicians and anyone who he thinks may help him to increase profits. If the NHS is badly managed, then the management must be sorted out. Privatisation cannot be the answer. For those that believe that the private sector is so good, just take a look at Marconi, BHS and, of course, our wonderful banking sector.
#23
HUKD misc has fallen hook, line and sinker for the mismanagement claims.

Yes, it has been mismanaged for years but there hasn't been this level of cuts in...forever.
They want to privatise it not to make it more efficient but to line their own pockets with contracts which benefit investment companies and insurers rather than the British people.

Why hasn't Jeremy Hunt done anything to sort out the mismanagement? Hasn't he been Health Secretary since 2012?
Strong and stable

Edited By: dtovey89 on May 08, 2017 09:01
#24
allowed
The NHS is very well run i think in a survey in came second in the world, The Express and Mail are told to run negative stories about it as the tptb want it to privatised.

I take it you have never worked in the NHS then?, I have and have seen waste on a epic scale.
1 Like #25
Public health should be in the hands of the populus not private companies, same applies for utilities and public transport, frankly I'd like to see banking added to the list too, the core vital things that a country needs should not be in private hands.
#26
scoffer1

Just out of interest what do people on HUKD think of privatisation of the NHS? I hadn't realised that Richard Bransons Virgin Care is such a major player in our NHS until last night when talking to friends in the medical profession.
It can work in privatisation as in public ownership. But there are many unmanageable risks in this transformation. In the crudest and simplest elements of human motivation in leadership, the risks are:-
1./ altruism, are leaders motivated by patients or motivated by pay and own reputation and career progression?
2./ the governance by leaders between privatised NHS and its watchdog and commission agencies is a "revolving door" of executives, if I am blunt to the point, look around UK and US, how many public body, government agency executives do well and then get into a "revolving door" and then come out on the other side working on the board of these privatised companies?
3./ A variation of 2./ a business principle is best illustrated by the finances of TFL (Transport for London), it claims that it makes no profit, which is 100% true, but what about the profits made by the companies that TFL commissions, I am not saying that companies should or should not make profits or even lots of profits, this is business; but if TFL public relations wants to make a point about making NO profit, for a certain public relations objectives, why is there a conspicuos absence of the listing of profits made by all commissioned companies by TFL?
4./ So could NHS be operated in a similar way like Starbucks and Boots, make little of no profit here , but the profit pops up elsewhere. Of course you can make profits, they should make profits, but in a complex global cross country structure, how do you think 10% , 20%, 50%, 100% , 200% profit? What about increasing profit % by 5% year on year because earnings per share is a determining factor of stock/share price of a privatised service. And executive bonus is typical driven by share price, earning per share (EPS), capitilisation and profit %. How do you think about no improvement in quality but the price goes up with no extra headcount increase?
5./ This is a combination of 1/ , 3/ and 4/ above , typically, a competent leader starts out in an operating company that does "normal" in a chain of "revolving doors" of an industry, if he is ambitious and meets the aggressive or challenging financial targets s/he get promoted, for example, this person starts out in a customer facing operating subsidiary, then gets promoted to HQ and then Global HQ and then to a holding company. If you are too customer service oriented and not so much on profits you don't get promoted.
6./ Once privatised, it is questionable as to whether all the top men and women behave in a comradery way in a health industry that is full of commercial people whose objectives all steer towards business financials (governance and management discretions are primarily directed towards financial metrics). E.g. Garden Bridge project.
7./ Patient and service risks, who is responsible for each and every patient task in a complex set of companies involving hundreds of commercial companies?
...and so on.
#27
DKLS
allowed
The NHS is very well run i think in a survey in came second in the world, The Express and Mail are told to run negative stories about it as the tptb want it to privatised.
I take it you have never worked in the NHS then?, I have and have seen waste on a epic scale.
As for the French presidential election, it was touted by some as "'It like having to choose between plague and cholera". Although you think that there is "epic waster", but
you also need to ask yourself the question of once transformed from public to private what happens to what you call "epic waste" , how much of it transforms in a similar sized complex web of companies to other "wastes" and consider the impacts of what I am hinting at in #31.

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