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The Queen's visit to Ireland

JonnyIrish Avatar
5y, 8m agoPosted 5 years, 8 months ago
This visit marks the first time the British monarchy has visited Ireland in 100 or so years and is a massive step forward for Irish/British relations. As an Irish Republican I look forward to the day when Irish reunification happens and the British presence in Ireland ceases. But I'm interested in the opinions of ordinary British people with regards Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Does anyone actually care if N.I., Scotland and Wales remain part of the UK? I know N.I. is a massive drain on tax payers money so would most people be happy if we were cast adrift? I do think it's a matter of time before Scottish independence and Irish reunification happens but is this actually a concern to British people? Or would the ordinary Brit welcome the expulsion of a region they have no affiliation and ultimately prop up with their taxes? Interested to hear your thoughts
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JonnyIrish Avatar
5y, 8m agoPosted 5 years, 8 months ago
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#1
I think it's a matter for the people of N.I. to decide thru the ballot box. If the majority want it then fair enough. But what makes you think Eire would welcome the north with open arms? The state of Eires ecomomy being what it is, reunification could push it over the edge. I have friends living in the south and they really couldn't care less about it.
#2
The four biggest political parties in ROI (Fianna Fail, Fianna Gael, Labour and Sinn Fein) support Irish reunification. Polls also suggest the vast majority of people in ROI (around 80%) are in favour of it as well. Granted it may provide economic problems but realistically it would have to be heavily subsidised by the EU, UK and USA until it was self sufficient. The major stumbling block is Irish Unionists but I don't know if most British people actually care about the UK as a whole
#3
If N Ireland, Wales and Scotland were not part of the UK - then surely the UK wouldn't exist, and England would be ... England?

I'm not sure I support that though ... IMO it's not in everyone's best interests to become independent. There are things I would change, but breaking up the UK just isn't a sensible idea.
#4
That's kind of what I'm getting at, why would English people want to be be part of the UK instead of just being part of an independent England? Why would they feel more attraction to the UK as opposed to just England?
#5
Why wouldn't they? We are, afterall, British nationals. Not English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. British. We are stronger as Britain. Individually that strength is disolved and being independent offers NO value whatsoever that I can see.
[mod] 1 Like #6
Seeing as ROI cannot run their own economy without bailouts from Europe the added drain of Northern Ireland would see them become a third world country which will be poorer and less prosperous than half of Africa.
#8


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.
banned#10
Many individuals are but sadly our nations are now tin pot regimes run by corrupt dictators.

I look foward to the day the Muslim nations can give aid to other nations again and it will happen.
#11
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...
#12
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.
#13
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.


OK if we are going to talk about generalisations, isn't "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that" a generalisation? I mean you made that statement off of one article glorifying Islamic aid, whereas historically you can find evidence they havn't always been 'nice' - what makes you think times have changed?
One empire gave aid then, and generally practicing Muslims give aid today, probably to a greater scale today; so what has changed? Please elaborate the statement "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that."
#14
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.



Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Sweeping statement much? :(

It's 2.5%, which is paid by each adult every single year. The 2.5% is calculated from your whole cash and jewellery you own, not just your income for that year.
This charity is called Zakat and is one of the 5 pillars of Islam, so if an adult doesn't do it then they are not Muslim (meaning that practically EVERY muslim will be doing it).
Apart from this we also have to give charity for each person in a household, equivalent to approximately £4 each every year. Not a great deal to us in the UK but of course it adds up considering that it's compulsory.
Giving charity voluntarily on top of these is greatly encouraged in Islam, so please don't make such comments as it's quite offensive.

Edited By: Mrs.Z on May 20, 2011 11:34
#15
Do you get to choose the charities or do you have to give to specific ones?
1 Like #16
Goonieman
Do you get to choose the charities or do you have to give to specific ones?

No not a specific charity, the point of it is too help others, such as with food/shelter, etc.

The £4 one is ideally meant to be given as food to those who need it, but here in the UK we can send the money to charities abroad who will buy food on your behalf to give out.
#17
Mrs.Z
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.



Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Sweeping statement much? :(

It's 2.5%, which is paid by each adult every single year. The 2.5% is calculated from your whole cash and jewellery you own, not just your income for that year.
This charity is called Zakat and is one of the 5 pillars of Islam, so if an adult doesn't do it then they are not Muslim (meaning that practically EVERY muslim will be doing it).
Apart from this we also have to give charity for each person in a household, equivalent to approximately £4 each every year. Not a great deal to us in the UK but of course it adds up considering that it's compulsory.
Giving charity voluntarily on top of these is greatly encouraged in Islam, so please don't make such comments as it's quite offensive.


Just to reiterate, what you said is what I was trying to get at, yet i put it in more simple terms due to the simple recipient I was trying to convey my message to.
Regardless, thanks for educating dtovey89 further.
#18
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.


OK if we are going to talk about generalisations, isn't "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that" a generalisation? I mean you made that statement off of one article glorifying Islamic aid, whereas historically you can find evidence they havn't always been 'nice' - what makes you think times have changed?
One empire gave aid then, and generally practicing Muslims give aid today, probably to a greater scale today; so what has changed? Please elaborate the statement "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that."


I can't see the vast majority of Muslim nations sending aid to the Western World any time soon. Definitely not a generalisation - why would you think it is?

EDIT: also Chong agrees with me:

Elton Chong
Many individuals are but sadly our nations are now tin pot regimes run by corrupt dictators.

I look foward to the day the Muslim nations can give aid to other nations again and it will happen.


Im not getting into a debate about Muslim aid or charities. I was simply stating that I don't know of any recent fiasco where a substantial Muslim nation/alliance sent aid to the Western World - that is all. I do not care about the 5 Pillars of Islam - I'm talking about Foreign aid and diplomacy.
Wasn't Chong's aid comment about sending aid to Ireland not how much Muslim's donate to their own faith?


Edited By: dtovey89 on May 20, 2011 11:50: .
#19
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.


OK if we are going to talk about generalisations, isn't "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that" a generalisation? I mean you made that statement off of one article glorifying Islamic aid, whereas historically you can find evidence they havn't always been 'nice' - what makes you think times have changed?
One empire gave aid then, and generally practicing Muslims give aid today, probably to a greater scale today; so what has changed? Please elaborate the statement "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that."


I can't see the vast majority of Muslim nations sending aid to the Western World any time soon. Definitely not a generalisation - why would you think it is?


"Too bad 'Muslims' aren't still like that" - what does is have to do with Muslims as a whole? It was a leaders decision, he just so happened to be Muslim...
If you genuinely meant what you just posted, then your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.
#20
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.


OK if we are going to talk about generalisations, isn't "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that" a generalisation? I mean you made that statement off of one article glorifying Islamic aid, whereas historically you can find evidence they havn't always been 'nice' - what makes you think times have changed?
One empire gave aid then, and generally practicing Muslims give aid today, probably to a greater scale today; so what has changed? Please elaborate the statement "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that."


I can't see the vast majority of Muslim nations sending aid to the Western World any time soon. Definitely not a generalisation - why would you think it is?


"Too bad 'Muslims' aren't still like that" - what does is have to do with Muslims as a whole? It was a leaders decision, he just so happened to be Muslim...
If you genuinely meant what you just posted, then your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.


Surely my comment should be relevant then. If there hasn't been any recent substantial aid (solely by a leader or joint effort) then that means they are not acting in accord to the attitude carried out in 1848.

Stop trying to dig deeper for something that clearly isn't there. However, in the future I will list individual and specific names just not to offend anyone.
#21
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.


OK if we are going to talk about generalisations, isn't "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that" a generalisation? I mean you made that statement off of one article glorifying Islamic aid, whereas historically you can find evidence they havn't always been 'nice' - what makes you think times have changed?
One empire gave aid then, and generally practicing Muslims give aid today, probably to a greater scale today; so what has changed? Please elaborate the statement "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that."


I can't see the vast majority of Muslim nations sending aid to the Western World any time soon. Definitely not a generalisation - why would you think it is?


"Too bad 'Muslims' aren't still like that" - what does is have to do with Muslims as a whole? It was a leaders decision, he just so happened to be Muslim...
If you genuinely meant what you just posted, then your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.


Surely my comment should be relevant then. If there hasn't been any recent substantial aid (solely by a leader or joint effort) then that means they are not acting in accord to the attitude carried out in 1848.

Stop trying to dig deeper for something that clearly isn't there. However, in the future I will list individual and specific names just not to offend anyone.


In that case your statement should have read "Too bad Muslim nations do not give aid to Western nation anymore"
#22
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89
ciazman
dtovey89


Too bad Muslims aren't still like that.


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Bit of a generalisation. All Mormons are supposed to give 10%+ of their income to the Church but I doubt they all do.


OK if we are going to talk about generalisations, isn't "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that" a generalisation? I mean you made that statement off of one article glorifying Islamic aid, whereas historically you can find evidence they havn't always been 'nice' - what makes you think times have changed?
One empire gave aid then, and generally practicing Muslims give aid today, probably to a greater scale today; so what has changed? Please elaborate the statement "Too bad Muslims aren't still like that."


I can't see the vast majority of Muslim nations sending aid to the Western World any time soon. Definitely not a generalisation - why would you think it is?


"Too bad 'Muslims' aren't still like that" - what does is have to do with Muslims as a whole? It was a leaders decision, he just so happened to be Muslim...
If you genuinely meant what you just posted, then your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.


Surely my comment should be relevant then. If there hasn't been any recent substantial aid (solely by a leader or joint effort) then that means they are not acting in accord to the attitude carried out in 1848.

Stop trying to dig deeper for something that clearly isn't there. However, in the future I will list individual and specific names just not to offend anyone.


In that case your statement should have read "Too bad Muslim nations do not give aid to Western nation anymore"


Indeed it should have.
banned#23
Some great comments by ciazman.

Just want to bring up one point he made tho. If a muslim neglects a duty in Islam he doesn't cease to become a Muslim
because of it. So in the case of one who doesn't pay his charity
he is sinful but still a Muslim.Also we believe that one should not give to be seen of men. So we shouldn't discuss the charity we give we only want the spiritual gain. In that sense we won't know how much an individual gives . I believe Jesus also preached this principle.

Edited By: Elton Chong on May 20, 2011 12:05
banned#24
I think we can all agree that the current muslim nations are a joke.

On the whole They don't give much to their own people much less anyone else.

A far cry from the caliphs of old who would wander the streets to see if anyone was deprived and were accountable and sinful if they were.

Edited By: Elton Chong on May 20, 2011 12:14
#25
Elton Chong
Some great comments by ciazman.

Just want to bring up one point he made tho. If a muslim neglects a duty in Islam he doesn't cease to become a Muslim
because of it. So in the case of one who doesn't pay his charity
he is sinful but still a Muslim.Also we believe that one should not give to be seen of men. So we shouldn't discuss the charity we give we only want the spiritual gain. In that sense we won't know how much an individual gives . I believe Jesus also preached this principle.


Thanks, and also thanks for clearing that up, my Islamic knowledge is relatively limited as I am not Muslim myself, but do live with some.
It's ignorant comments like dtovey's that have the effect of fueling this 'EDL' nation we now live in. The principle of 'EDL' is fine and welcomed by Muslims I know: to fight Islamic extremism and monitor immigration tighter than we do. This will have beneficial impacts to everybody. However it is mindless idiots who join EDL and turn it into a racist organisation when fundamentally it shouldn't be. This country really needs to stop generalising and open their eye and ears to what is going on around them.
banned#26
^ +1
banned#27
ciazman
this 'EDL' nation we now live in.



ciazman
your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.
#28
FilthAndFurry
ciazman
this 'EDL' nation we now live in.



ciazman
your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/05/edl-extremists-march-luton-interests
banned#29
ciazman
FilthAndFurry
ciazman
this 'EDL' nation we now live in.



ciazman
your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/05/edl-extremists-march-luton-interests


Oh, so when you said 'EDL nation' you meant Luton.

You must be new to the UK, but we have this thing about freedom of speech. We even let nutters enjoy it.

And you'll pretty much find scumbags in every country.

But let's not go overboard and use terms like 'EDL nation' to describe Britain. It's a little offensive.
#30
FilthAndFurry
ciazman
FilthAndFurry
[quote=ciazman] this 'EDL' nation we now live in.



ciazman
your statement was far too ambiguous and needed to be clarified.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/05/edl-extremists-march-luton-interests


Oh, so when you said 'EDL nation' you meant Luton.

You must be new to the UK, but we have this thing about freedom of speech. We even let nutters enjoy it.

And you'll pretty much find scumbags in every country.

But let's not go overboard and use terms like 'EDL nation' to describe Britain. It's a little offensive.[/quoteI

Really just Luton? This nation is too poorly educated and informed, brainwashed by media and we have an outlook where if something is different, we do not like it and are definitely not prepared to accept it.

If you are offended by this statement then maybe take a few moments to reflect to as why you are, maybe you need to check yourself?

(Btw I am Catholic Irish/English born in Cambridge and currently live in Brighton, if this has any relevance?)
banned#31
ciazman

Really just Luton? This nation is too poorly educated and informed, brainwashed by media and we have an outlook where if something is different, we do not like it and are definitely not prepared to accept it.

If you are offended by this statement then maybe take a few moments to reflect to as why you are, maybe you need to check yourself?

(Btw I am Catholic Irish/English born in Cambridge and currently live in Brighton, if this has any relevance?)


Except that throughout this nation's history we have shown ourselves to be accepting to differences. We're not perfect (we are human after all) but we do better than a lot of countries.

Let's not take the EDL and give them any more importance than they deserve. They're fringe lunatics. It would be like me saying the Catholic church is full of paedophiles. It isn't.

They just protect paedophiles.
1 Like #32
ciazman


Muslims give 2% of their income to charity...


Aye, Muslim charities only.
#33
Not just Luton:
http://1millionunited.org/blogs/blog/2011/04/24/edl-openly-support-national-front-in-newcastle/ (Newcastle)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-13249466 (Dorset)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-13249466 (Bradford)

Just a few examples of the EDL spreading across the nation, maybe not just a problem in Luton,,,
#34
FilthAndFurry
ciazman

Really just Luton? This nation is too poorly educated and informed, brainwashed by media and we have an outlook where if something is different, we do not like it and are definitely not prepared to accept it.

If you are offended by this statement then maybe take a few moments to reflect to as why you are, maybe you need to check yourself?

(Btw I am Catholic Irish/English born in Cambridge and currently live in Brighton, if this has any relevance?)


Except that throughout this nation's history we have shown ourselves to be accepting to differences. We're not perfect (we are human after all) but we do better than a lot of countries.

Let's not take the EDL and give them any more importance than they deserve. They're fringe lunatics. It would be like me saying the Catholic church is full of paedophiles. It isn't.

They just protect paedophiles.


In your opinon..
#35
Was hoping to read up about Ireland ITT. oO
banned#36
Boring religious debate from the usual zealots itt.
#37
Never knew that about the aid being given during the famine, very interesting. I understand the problems in the Republic but realistically reunification would be decades away and as I said would have to be heavily subsidised. I was more looking to know if ordinary people in the UK would actually care at all about about Scottish or Irish independence etc.
#38
ciazman
Elton Chong
Some great comments by ciazman.

Just want to bring up one point he made tho. If a muslim neglects a duty in Islam he doesn't cease to become a Muslim
because of it. So in the case of one who doesn't pay his charity
he is sinful but still a Muslim.Also we believe that one should not give to be seen of men. So we shouldn't discuss the charity we give we only want the spiritual gain. In that sense we won't know how much an individual gives . I believe Jesus also preached this principle.


Thanks, and also thanks for clearing that up, my Islamic knowledge is relatively limited as I am not Muslim myself, but do live with some.
It's ignorant comments like dtovey's that have the effect of fueling this 'EDL' nation we now live in. The principle of 'EDL' is fine and welcomed by Muslims I know: to fight Islamic extremism and monitor immigration tighter than we do. This will have beneficial impacts to everybody. However it is mindless idiots who join EDL and turn it into a racist organisation when fundamentally it shouldn't be. This country really needs to stop generalising and open their eye and ears to what is going on around them.


You criticise me for stating that Muslim nation's no longer give aid to the West or any other country at that. Chong, a muslim, admitted that.

Then you go and state Im fuelling this "EDL nation". Hypocrite.

My choice of words were less offensive and less stereotypical than yours.

EDIT: by the way I'm not solely anti-Muslim. I'm anti-religion and anti-many other things. That doesn't mean I support the EDL - who I'm very against.
Next time don't try and spin my words to start a pointless argument and then use the very method you were criticising against me.

Edited By: dtovey89 on May 20, 2011 13:35
#39
JonnyIrish
Never knew that about the aid being given during the famine, very interesting. I understand the problems in the Republic but realistically reunification would be decades away and as I said would have to be heavily subsidised. I was more looking to know if ordinary people in the UK would actually care at all about about Scottish or Irish independence etc.


I'd welcome it mate.
Bar the Troubles and terroism - I can understand the struggle for independence. Even though I was born a Protestant and am English I am akin to the struggles of those who want Home Rule.

I'm all game for letting Scotland and Ireland be completely independent - if they want it then surely they should be allowed too. I'm pretty sure a high percentage of the English population couldn't give a damn about the Union as long as relationships remained positive and we kept economic and diplomatic ties.

What I don't understand is the Irish Unionists. They show more loyalty to the Union than those in England do. I reckon its a mask used to hide to fighting and terrorism.

R.I.P those who thought in the 1916 Easter Rising. Anything else after that were twisting ideology to advocate terror. Not freedom fighters.
#40
dtovey89
ciazman
Elton Chong
Some great comments by ciazman.

Just want to bring up one point he made tho. If a muslim neglects a duty in Islam he doesn't cease to become a Muslim
because of it. So in the case of one who doesn't pay his charity
he is sinful but still a Muslim.Also we believe that one should not give to be seen of men. So we shouldn't discuss the charity we give we only want the spiritual gain. In that sense we won't know how much an individual gives . I believe Jesus also preached this principle.


Thanks, and also thanks for clearing that up, my Islamic knowledge is relatively limited as I am not Muslim myself, but do live with some.
It's ignorant comments like dtovey's that have the effect of fueling this 'EDL' nation we now live in. The principle of 'EDL' is fine and welcomed by Muslims I know: to fight Islamic extremism and monitor immigration tighter than we do. This will have beneficial impacts to everybody. However it is mindless idiots who join EDL and turn it into a racist organisation when fundamentally it shouldn't be. This country really needs to stop generalising and open their eye and ears to what is going on around them.


You criticise me for stating that Muslim nation's no longer give aid to the West or any other country at that. Chong, a muslim, admitted that.

Then you go and state Im fuelling this "EDL nation". Hypocrite.

My choice of words were less offensive and less stereotypical than yours.

EDIT: by the way I'm not solely anti-Muslim. I'm anti-religion and anti-many other things. That doesn't mean I support the EDL - who I'm very against.
Next time don't try and spin my words to start a pointless argument and then use the very method you were criticising against me.


I criticised your initial quote - which you accepted was wrong. I did not criticise you for stating that Muslim nations don't give aid, I am fully aware of that fact, which is why I said Muslim's now days would give more than they did then (due to the Zakat).

With quotes like your initial one it does only fuel hatred, I cannot see anything positive from it (it didn't even convey the message you allege you tried to convey). Hence my statement that statements such as the one you made fuel hatred and consequently the EDL, which consequently has spread throughout the nation.

My words are not offensive, they are fact. The EDL is a racist organisation, which was (maybe) not intended to be. However it has been used and hijacked by bigoted, uneducated individuals who wish to vent their racism in a cowardly manner. This EDL problem is only growing, affecting more towns and cities, therefore we are becoming an EDL nation - even more so the longer we accept it and let it operate.

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