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Renault emissions, evaded detection, state involved

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could be another VW type scandal ex FT Fears that government might be too lenient because of 20 per cent stake in carmaker Read More
davewave Avatar
11m, 16h agoPosted 11 months, 16 hours ago
could be another VW type scandal

ex FT

Fears that government might be too lenient because of 20 per cent stake in carmaker
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davewave Avatar
11m, 16h agoPosted 11 months, 16 hours ago
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#1
ex FT

French government report omitted significant details about how Renault’s diesel cars were able to emit fewer deadly gases when subject to official emissions testing, members of the state inquiry have told the Financial Times.

The inquiry’s report, published last month, concluded that some Renault models emitted nitrogen oxides, a cause of respiratory diseases linked to early death, at nine to 11 times higher than EU limits.

But three of the 17 members of the commission said that the published report did not include the full details of their findings, including the fact that a NOx “trap” in the Renault Captur went into overdrive when the sport-utility vehicle was prepared for emissions testing but not during normal driving conditions.


It was discrepancies between on-road and in-laboratory NOx emissions that first tipped off US investigators that Volkswagen diesels had been installed with illegal “defeat devices” that cheated American tests, triggering billions in fines. A criminal investigation is still under way.
#2
It makes me chuckle how they throw the word 'scandal' round, when I have never heard of anybody asking about emissions when buying a car. I get the impression that for most people, it's things like colour, comfort, and space they're interested in. Now because there's the possibility of getting some money out of somebody in our sue-all society (thanks, America), everybody is suddenly mortified.X)
#3
Quietus
It makes me chuckle how they throw the word 'scandal' round, when I have never heard of anybody asking about emissions when buying a car. I get the impression that for most people, it's things like colour, comfort, and space they're interested in. Now because there's the possibility of getting some money out of somebody in our sue-all society (thanks, America), everybody is suddenly mortified.X)


I guess the deception may make the carmaker liable, should they be allowed to break the law?
#4
davewave
Quietus
It makes me chuckle how they throw the word 'scandal' round, when I have never heard of anybody asking about emissions when buying a car. I get the impression that for most people, it's things like colour, comfort, and space they're interested in. Now because there's the possibility of getting some money out of somebody in our sue-all society (thanks, America), everybody is suddenly mortified.X)
I guess the deception may make the carmaker liable, should they be allowed to break the law?
And in doing so reduce any revenue from emissions-based car tax...I'm sure any governments that have such a regime (ahem) would be very interested in manufacturers doing that :)
#5
davewave
I guess the deception may make the carmaker liable, should they be allowed to break the law?
Nobody should be allowed to break the law. In this case, the government has two options: Fine the company, or have the responsible individual face jail time. Since the latter almost never happens to anyone but the common man, the government should impose a heavy fine - one that would actually dent their income, and there should certainly be no payout to the populace (since, as I mentioned above, my experience is that most people don't give a monkey's about their car emissions, and I doubt very many bought a car on that basis).
#6
Quietus
davewave
I guess the deception may make the carmaker liable, should they be allowed to break the law?
Nobody should be allowed to break the law. In this case, the government has two options: Fine the company, or have the responsible individual face jail time. Since the latter almost never happens to anyone but the common man, the government should impose a heavy fine - one that would actually dent their income, and there should certainly be no payout to the populace (since, as I mentioned above, my experience is that most people don't give a monkey's about their car emissions, and I doubt very many bought a car on that basis).


the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
#7
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
#8
hey, I have a 2015 megane, I feel cheated/let down, where do I claim!
#9
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
#10
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?

We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
#11
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
Precisely. People can't be 'misled' if they are not taking anything to do with emissions into account when buying a car. So, if the company has committed a crime, and is likely to be fined, make use of the funds.
#12
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
in your argument then car manufacturers should be able to break the law, as long as the public arent aware they are pumping illegal amounts of harmful emissions into our air??
#13
Quietus
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
Precisely. People can't be 'misled' if they are not taking anything to do with emissions into account when buying a car. So, if the company has committed a crime, and is likely to be fined, make use of the funds.

Well the emissions were taken into account on the two main cars but they were CO2. But in reality it was just a by product of the higher MPG.
#14
GAVINLEWISHUKD
Quietus
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
Precisely. People can't be 'misled' if they are not taking anything to do with emissions into account when buying a car. So, if the company has committed a crime, and is likely to be fined, make use of the funds.
Well the emissions were taken into account on the two main cars but they were CO2. But in reality it was just a by product of the higher MPG.
you missed the point.
A French government report omitted significant details about how Renault’s diesel cars were able to emit fewer deadly gases when subject to official emissions testing, members of the state inquiry have told the Financial Times.


deadly gases are being pumped into our collective air because the maufacturer was able to cheat the tests


The Renault Captur’s NOx trap purged five times in rapid succession at the end of scripted test preparations, allowing the car to produce much lower emissions than on the road, said the commission members, several of whom asked for anonymity.
This suggested that the car’s software could have detected that a test was being performed, they said.
“Everything in a car is controlled by software now,” one commission member said. “We can’t be sure that Renault’s software detected the test [like Volkswagen’s] per se, but it seems that Renault has optimised the NOx filter to target this very specific set of conditions.”
#15
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
in your argument then car manufacturers should be able to break the law, as long as the public arent aware they are pumping illegal amounts of harmful emissions into our air??

No not at all. I'm with you on this. The point I was making was that nobodys buys a car (so are not mislead) based on NOx output.

While it is not right at all the testing procedure is poor. The technology is there for them to do real world testing to backup results from the labs.
Sadly it's human nature to bend the rules where you can to get an advantage.
#16
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
in your argument then car manufacturers should be able to break the law, as long as the public arent aware they are pumping illegal amounts of harmful emissions into our air??
No not at all. I'm with you on this. The point I was making was that nobodys buys a car (so are not mislead) based on NOx output.
While it is not right at all the testing procedure is poor. The technology is there for them to do real world testing to backup results from the labs.
Sadly it's human nature to bend the rules where you can to get an advantage.
OK, but the public should be able to trust independent test results, something stinks here for sure.
#17
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
in your argument then car manufacturers should be able to break the law, as long as the public arent aware they are pumping illegal amounts of harmful emissions into our air??
No not at all. I'm with you on this. The point I was making was that nobodys buys a car (so are not mislead) based on NOx output.
While it is not right at all the testing procedure is poor. The technology is there for them to do real world testing to backup results from the labs.
Sadly it's human nature to bend the rules where you can to get an advantage.
OK, but the public should be able to trust independent test results, something stinks here for sure.

They should but the questions need to be asked that if many multi billion pound companies has had to do this to hit targets the target have been set at an unreasonable high level in to short a time frame.
If people set unrealistic targets people will feel the need to cheat.
#18
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
in your argument then car manufacturers should be able to break the law, as long as the public arent aware they are pumping illegal amounts of harmful emissions into our air??
No not at all. I'm with you on this. The point I was making was that nobodys buys a car (so are not mislead) based on NOx output.
While it is not right at all the testing procedure is poor. The technology is there for them to do real world testing to backup results from the labs.
Sadly it's human nature to bend the rules where you can to get an advantage.
OK, but the public should be able to trust independent test results, something stinks here for sure.
They should but the questions need to be asked that if many multi billion pound companies has had to do this to hit targets the target have been set at an unreasonable high level in to short a time frame.
If people set unrealistic targets people will feel the need to cheat.
Compliance have not done or not been able to do their job, CEO and the board need to answer why that was the case.
#19
All emissions have a knock on effect in fuel economy, functional life of components and health. The last I checked most people cared about those aspects when buying a car. Though health is more crash safety biased.

All emission testing should be re-evaluated to fit real life. Random vehicles should be taken off a production line and tested. Car manufacturers should be forced to contribute directly towards environmental concerns by way of a transparent % of profits.
#20
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
GAVINLEWISHUKD
davewave
Quietus
davewave

the government is suspected to be complicit I the deceit so that wouldn't really work
Then when the company pays the fine, put the money toward the NHS, or fixing pot holes, or cheaper bills for the elderly. There are lots of options.:)
what has the NHS got to do with a consumer being deceived on their car purchase?
We have 3 cars and take quite and interest in cars yet have no idea of NOx levels of any of them. I doubt the avarage buyer (not that people seem to be buying cars now days) have been mislead as they don't know or care.
in your argument then car manufacturers should be able to break the law, as long as the public arent aware they are pumping illegal amounts of harmful emissions into our air??
No not at all. I'm with you on this. The point I was making was that nobodys buys a car (so are not mislead) based on NOx output.
While it is not right at all the testing procedure is poor. The technology is there for them to do real world testing to backup results from the labs.
Sadly it's human nature to bend the rules where you can to get an advantage.
OK, but the public should be able to trust independent test results, something stinks here for sure.
They should but the questions need to be asked that if many multi billion pound companies has had to do this to hit targets the target have been set at an unreasonable high level in to short a time frame.
If people set unrealistic targets people will feel the need to cheat.
Compliance have not done or not been able to do their job, CEO and the board need to answer why that was the case.

Sadly can't see that happening.

It's a bit like been at school and cheating on your maths test and after been caught standing up and justifying yourself by saying you did it because the test was too hard.

Moving from Euro 4 to Euro 6 (2005-2014) was simply unrealistic in the timescale considering very little has changed technology wise in engine design in this period. The economic downturn didn't help matters.

So is it right? No not at all. Am I remotely surprised? Not in the slightest.
#21
Dave, I simply don't believe that GOVERNMENT AND BIG BUSINESS would do this? They never have done in the past because they care too much about us.
#22
Graham1979
Dave, I simply don't believe that GOVERNMENT AND BIG BUSINESS would do this? They never have done in the past because they care too much about us.
I think I heard what you're saying, just a little louder if you can.

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