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So what is this comp's bottleneck?!?!?!?!?!

Artonox Avatar
6y, 10m agoPosted 6 years, 10 months ago
Prob not the best place to ask, but worth a shot:
Ok, using Counter Strike Source as the game to check about my graphic cards' power, I used to get 50 fps average with my 8800gt 256mb at 1680x1050 res (or something like that) with everything around high.

Now, wanting to maximise the fps, I upgraded to 4870 512mb and guess what? Precisely the same average 50fps. Wtf?! I was expecting MAXED fps by this beast D: So the question is, what is going on? How come this literally have the same performace as the 8800gt?

My main specs:
AMD Phenom 9500 (2.2ghz)
4gb PC6400 ram
4870 512mb
Razer Barracuda Sound Card
coolermaster 600W PSU (dunno what model but I dont think it matters)

Stuff that might be of use:
Runs 64bit Windows 7
CSS is a 32bit application
Lowest score in my Windows Scoring thing is 5.9 - by the 1tb sata hard drive
In the highest driver vers.

I doubt its the speed of the hard drive, but this is ticking me off.
Artonox Avatar
6y, 10m agoPosted 6 years, 10 months ago
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banned#1
What chipset is the board? often the thing letting down decent components is a poor board... PC6400 ram could be quicker... what does windows give the card?

It won't be the drive, I recently changed from a 1tb Drive (got 6.2 in windows) to a 300gb Veloicraptor 10,000 and that only got 5.9 (wasn't best pleased)
#2
Asrock ALive NF5SLi-1394
so from the website its "NVIDIA® nForce 560" - http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=ALiveNF5SLI-1394
Windows give it 7.5
#3
most probably your frame rates are in sync with your monitor's refresh rate. i'm guessing if you disable it you will get higher frame rates even with your 8800gt.
#4
roldski
most probably your frame rates are in sync with your monitor's refresh rate. i'm guessing if you disable it you will get higher frame rates even with your 8800gt.


hmmm how do would i go about disabling it?

(vsync in CSS is already disabled)
#5
latest drivers maybe
#6
try the nvidia or ati control panel, there should be an option there somewhere.
#7
think you mean 1920x1200??? also some games just max out (not saying CSS does) but you might be able to get a profile for your GPU card and the game for optimal settings if you look about
#8
roldski
try the nvidia or ati control panel, there should be an option there somewhere.


couldnt find the desired option atm, checking through ati catalyst control centre as nvidia wont open as "nvidia card not installed".
#9
Chuckles1001
think you mean 1920x1200??? also some games just max out (not saying CSS does) but you might be able to get a profile for your GPU card and the game for optimal settings if you look about


no its 1680x1050. 100% sure. All my bro's mates get 100+ frame rates (with weaker cards than mine even but more stronger than my 8800gt) so I dont see this as impossible.

Hmm i wouldnt think a desired profile is needed for a game that came out 5+ years ago with a fairly powerful card, but ill check anyway
#11
muffin247
latest drivers maybe


doubt it - with the 8800gt, ive used 6 different drivers and all reported the same performance. In 4870, only tried 2 but no difference atm.
#12
Artonox
no its 1680x1050. 100% sure. All my bro's mates get 100+ frame rates (with weaker cards than mine even but more stronger than my 8800gt) so I dont see this as impossible.

Hmm i wouldnt think a desired profile is needed for a game that came out 5+ years ago with a fairly powerful card, but ill check anyway


That makes sence but in your first post you put 1680x1200 so your sort of in the middle of two as you get, as you only just said ;):

1680x1050

& as i said 1920x1080x

i was giving you the benifit of the doubt and thinking you had the better Rez ;)
#13


cool - ill play around with css and see what happens (will use the so called "stress test" as the benchmark :P)
#14
Chuckles1001
That makes sence but in your first post you put 1680x1200 so your sort of in the middle of two as you get, as you said:

1680x1050

& as i said 1920x1080x

i was giving you the benifit of the doubt and thinking you had the better Rez ;)


hehe lol, the first time i put it, I kinda forgot but i knew it was somewhere around that figure. gonna change it now to avoid confusion
#15
Artonox
hehe lol, the first time i put it, I kinda forgot but i knew it was somewhere around that figure. gonna change it now to avoid confusion


Cool let us know if it works and if you ever fancy a game ;)
There are so many different ones out there just seemed strange, I play at 1920x1080 on a 24" and it looks so sweet, but a mate of mine has a 1920x1200 and that looks good too i spose lol
1 Like #16
Also apprantly you should get 100FPS with everything on high for your GPU look on tomshardware thats without tweaking jsut setting everything to max
#17
Chuckles1001
Also apprantly you should get 100FPS with everything on high for your GPU look on tomshardware thats without tweaking jsut setting everything to max


yeah, :P

anyways, had a few tweaks and there is almost no difference whatsoever. Gonna log off for some sleep now anyways - ty for the help and ill try this again tomorrow.
(rep +)

EDIT: what i want to achieve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-c7YdICWxk
#18
Artonox
yeah, :P

anyways, had a few tweaks and there is almost no difference whatsoever. Gonna log off for some sleep now anyways - ty for the help and ill try this again tomorrow.
(rep +)

EDIT: what i want to achieve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-c7YdICWxk


Should i pretend this is mine one now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HNG9ng51NU&feature=related :whistling::whistling:

I will check mine when i get in tomorrow to see what i get, i never bother checking normally as i am not bad at CS and have been playing it for over 10 years as long as it does not seem slow i dont muck about, but always play with settings on full lol

Good luck with mucking baout with the stuff, but does seem like something is stopping you getting what you want :(
#19
So what is this comp's bottleneck?!?!?!?!?!


It looks to be the CPU, you will have to test both your cards on different games. If you notice newer games get a boost between the two cards but your Source engine games do not. Then the bottleneck in terms of the Source engine is the CPU raw horsepower, 2.2ghz won't cut it.

Now I am not 100% certain, but from personal experience a lot of my older games got a huge boost by changing my CPU over to an E8400 @ 4ghz. Before that upgrading the graphics card gave little to no improvement on games of a certain age.

The more Mhz the better, if you can mix this with Quad Core then cool. Although slow Quad Core (2ghz) vs a Fast Dual Core (4ghz) in gaming makes a huge difference.
#20
PhearFactor
It looks to be the CPU, you will have to test both your cards on different games. If you notice newer games get a boost between the two cards but your Source engine games do not. Then the bottleneck in terms of the Source engine is the CPU raw horsepower, 2.2ghz won't cut it.

Now I am not 100% certain, but from personal experience a lot of my older games got a huge boost by changing my CPU over to an E8400 @ 4ghz. Before that upgrading the graphics card gave little to no improvement on games of a certain age.


I think your right, i was going to wait to see what he said, but as you said the CSS engine is old now but still when it came out there were a lot of 3.0ghz CPU out there and he only has 2.2 and i dont think this CPU uses multiple cores so it will only use 1 2.2Ghx CPU (I said that last bit just so OP knew, not for you who sounds like you do anyway ;)

Seious Sam always used to be a good game to test a game on, but now adays not sure what is a good test prob the new C&C4 that is about to come out ;)
#21
I cannot remember which card I upgraded from, but I went to an 8800GT. In World of Warcraft the difference between the 2 cards was about 5fps, despite the fact the cards were at least a generation or two apart.

When I upgraded from my Dual Core AMD 2.4ghz (Athlon 939 I believe) to the Dual Core e8400 @ 4ghz. Wow (no pun intended lol), the FPS boost was incredible. I believe these two games are of a similar age, so I am assuming the Mhz will be the main issue here.
#22
for reference, check out this benchmark result on an A64 3000+ with 1gig pc3200 ram and previous gen vcards. You'll notice that the stress test at 1600x1200, 4xAA, 8XAF with all max, a 6800 Ultra manages 58fps. IMHO, I think a 2.2ghz Phenom with an 8800GT should be able to do better than that. You can maybe try overclocking your Phenom to see if the frames go up to check if the processor is limiting your fps?
#24
Intel E8500
4gb PC6400
Ati HD4870 1gb
I get 277fps 1920 x 1080 in video stress test with everything set to max.
However in games with 32 players this can drop to 60 -70 fps ,,
As mentioned above CPU plays a big part in CSS,
#25
ok so mayb the cpu is the bottle neck? I went about and tried COD4 on near max settings on the 4870 (4xAA) and i get somewhere between 40 - 100 fps average 60ish (the 8800Gt gets around 30-60)
as for overclocking, ive never tried to do it before and just a little bit shy of tryin it out. (too many guides saying too many different things, though it all comes down to increasing "stuff")
This phenom i have is a quad core, and so is this implying that CSS only uses one core?

EDIT: also tried TF2 and there was an improvement from 5-30fps on 8800gt to 20-50 on the 4870
#26
I have the same problem i have a quad core 6600 and a 4850 1gb and still get 55 fps avg on CSS and Arkham Asylum on max graphics. Must be my resolution as my monitor is poor
#27
You could try overclocking, although to be honest I have no idea how well these Phenoms overclock, from what I have read it varies a lot and in some instances they don't clock that high so it may be a complete waste of time even trying.

The industry shafted us basically offering us Quad Cores that most games couldn't take advantage of and that older games most definitely cannot utilise effectively. Plus these Quad Cores came with lower clock speeds which most of these older games require to push that FPS.

In my honest opinion, if the only game you really play (or the majority of the games you play) are based on the Source engine - you should consider a fast Dual Core processor or one of the newer Quad Cores that can overclock to around 4ghz (or has a stock speed of at least 3.2ghz).
#28
PhearFactor
You could try overclocking, although to be honest I have no idea how well these Phenoms overclock, from what I have read it varies a lot and in some instances they don't clock that high so it may be a complete waste of time even trying.

The industry shafted us basically offering us Quad Cores that most games couldn't take advantage of and that older games most definitely cannot utilise effectively. Plus these Quad Cores came with lower clock speeds which most of these older games require to push that FPS.

In my honest opinion, if the only game you really play (or the majority of the games you play) are based on the Source engine - you should consider a fast Dual Core processor or one of the newer Quad Cores that can overclock to around 4ghz (or has a stock speed of at least 3.2ghz).


yeah, i guess oc is the current free option atm.

Strange though, since i just ran 3dmark Vantage on both 8800gt and 4870 and this the 4870 scored lower than the 8800gt overall:

The GPU score on 8800gt: 11475 and with CPU: 19093 bringing overall score of E12747
The GPU score on 4870 : 19294 and with CPU: 4882 bringing overall score of E11102

Mayb its because there were two fans on the CPU and I actually disabled one of them when i installed the 4870 (since i thought it was a waste of power).
#29
Artonox
couldnt find the desired option atm, checking through ati catalyst control centre as nvidia wont open as "nvidia card not installed".


This should have been ringing large alarm bells. If you didn't uninstall the nvidia drivers before you removed the 8800GT that could certainly be causing problems. You could either do it the 'proper' way (uninstall the Catalyst software/drivers, replace the 4870 with 8800GT, uninstall the nVidia software/drivers, replace the 8800GT with the 4870, install the latest catalyst drivers) or just uninstall the nVidia drivers and software use something like driver sweeper and hope that fixes it if it is the problem.

In the new Catalyst Control Centre Vsync options are in the All tab on the 3d menu option.

khy86
I have the same problem i have a quad core 6600 and a 4850 1gb and still get 55 fps avg on CSS and Arkham Asylum on max graphics. Must be my resolution as my monitor is poor


Lower resolutions mean higher frame rates.

Artonox

The GPU score on 8800gt: 11475 and with CPU: 19093 bringing overall score of E12747
The GPU score on 4870 : 19294 and with CPU: 4882 bringing overall score of E11102


Yeah, it's no bottleneck here, there's definitely something wrong. What sort of temperature is your CPU and card hitting under load?

You probably want to troubleshoot it anyway, but if it's just CSS it's not too big a problem - your monitor is very likely to be only able to display 60fps anyway.
#30
using CPUID hardware monitor,

Nvidia nforce3 pro - CPU: (dunno what this is - prob the motherboard chipset readings)
85 degrees C under load

AMD Phenom:
Core#0-3 = max-58 around 48 under load

Radeon 4870 -
max 75, around 68 under load

under load of 3dmark

Also, ive used the driver sweeper to delete all of the Nvidia display drivers, though after, only the Physx ones remains since 3dmark needs them

Tried another stress test on CSS and somehow it boosted itself from 70fps average to 90fps average. Might b a one off, so will try again soon
#31
cool, looking better atm lol
#32
Artonox
Strange though, since i just ran 3dmark Vantage on both 8800gt and 4870 and this the 4870 scored lower than the 8800gt overall:

The GPU score on 8800gt: 11475 and with CPU: 19093 bringing overall score of E12747
The GPU score on 4870 : 19294 and with CPU: 4882 bringing overall score of E11102


Those don't look right, for sure you should probably do these again.

Try lowering the resolution in CS and watching the FPS to see if you get any change, the results could be a good indicator of what is causing the problems.

Also, if you want to ensure this definitely isn't software related/driver related, a clean install would be the way to go just so you know for peace of mind that this isn't the issue. It could very well be the issue, so it is for sure worth trying.
#33
PhearFactor
Those don't look right, for sure you should probably do these again.

Try lowering the resolution in CS and watching the FPS to see if you get any change, the results could be a good indicator of what is causing the problems.

Also, if you want to ensure this definitely isn't software related/driver related, a clean install would be the way to go just so you know for peace of mind that this isn't the issue. It could very well be the issue, so it is for sure worth trying.


well, the fps has no change (or at least, anything significant) atm nomatter which res i use. The clean install, i will leave that last - it sounds like a 3-4 hour job with all the programs etc i use.

just really need it min 60fps since in intense battles, my current setup can fall to 30fps.
#34
Artonox
well, the fps has no change (or at least, anything significant) atm nomatter which res i use.


This indicates a CPU bottleneck.

EndlessWaves
Lower resolutions mean higher frame rates.


Endless is correct when he said this until you have a bottleneck incident.

When you lower your resolution your FPS will usually go up because your CPU is not creating the bottleneck, the graphics card is. So lowering the resolution means the graphics card has less to do = more FPS are being rendered. When this doesn't happen the only conclusion can be a bottleneck and that would be caused by the CPU.

I really do believe that you would see a huge difference from a CPU at speeds over 3Ghz. Remember, I believe this game was released with a 3Ghz CPU being stated as the recommended speed. The minimum spec was 1.8Ghz. Although CPU's are better now than they were several years ago, if the software isn't taking advantage of those additional cores, your effectively running on a 2.2Ghz single core processor with a game that ideally wants 3Ghz or more.
banned#35
I have a bfg 320mb 8800gts oc2

and a q6600

I can do a stress test on my rig and tell you what the fps is if you like? i guess my 8800gts is equivalent to your 8800gt? sorry i dont really play games much so dont know about these things!! lol

post me some links for the test and i'll give you the results might tell you if it is your cpu or not?
#36
bykergrove
i guess my 8800gts is equivalent to your 8800gt?


Depends on whether it is the G90 or G92 8800GTS.

I believe the G90 have 320mb/640mb, whereas the G92 is 265mb/512mb

The 8800GT is more similar to the 9800GT than a G90 card.

*coughs and goes back to the nerd corner*
#37
Basically the test would be to run CS:S Stress Test at max settings with a resolution of 1680x1050.

Plus, we would need to know the CPU speed and also how the FPS changes when you charge the resolution up/down.
#38
If you want to be really smart, you could also lower the multiplier on the CPU to give it a speed of around 2.2Ghz (same as he is using). Then run the tests again and see what FPS you get. Then we could see the difference between 2.2Ghz and 3Ghz.
#39
Can you not go into the BIOS and lower the FSB/Multi to get a CPU speed of around 2Ghz?

We need to see the difference the CPU makes on the FPS ideally.
#40
How does the FPS scale when you keep the same settings but lower the resolution?

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