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what is paypal's policy on......

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.....royal mail losing items?? i sold a phone on ebay a couple of months back, for £125 but for some strange reason i only posted it recorded not excpecting royal mail to lose it. but they have, and m…
jase159 Avatar
banned1d, 1m agoPosted 1 decade, 1 month ago
.....royal mail losing items?? i sold a phone on ebay a couple of months back, for £125 but for some strange reason i only posted it recorded not excpecting royal mail to lose it. but they have, and my buyer has now filed a claim against me. am i screwed??? i have my two receipts (one receipt, one slip with the tracking number on). please guys, i need to know.
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jase159 Avatar
banned1d, 1m agoPosted 1 decade, 1 month ago
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#1
as the sender its up to you to track the item and claim back the money for your buyer, however I think recorded only covers loss up to £30.

an item I posted was lost and I recieved £30 back for it, but it took a whole to come through. An item of mine was also stolen once and it was up to the sender to coerce with royal mail.

you can track and trace it here:
click

your best bet for now is to get in touch with royal mail to find out your options and what you need to do
General customer service - 08457 740 740
open 8am - 7.30pm, Monday to Friday. 8am - 2.30pm on Saturdays
International callers +44 175 238 7112

or you can write to them:

Royal Mail Customer Services
PO Box 740
GLASGOW
G22 6WW
#2
You have to wait 2 weeks after sending before you can do anything. I had it with a buyer of mine from eBay (It was only a 99p t shirt) and they said they hadn't received it, but not to worry it will probably turn up. I refunded their money that they had payed through paypal, and said I had filed a form with Royal Mail and that they would be getting in touch with her, and suddenly the parcel had arrived!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She also repayed me the money.
#3
Sorry, but you will lose the Paypal dispute.
Royal Mail will refund you £32.00. Has it been 15 working days?
1 Like #4
If its lost you need to refund the buyer the full amount that he paid , too late now but you should have sent
it Special Delievery and be covered up to £500.
banned#5
am i not coveredby paypal seller protection as it says that you only have to use a service with a signature if its worth over £150???
#6
I would ask someone on the e-bay forum who will know more about it.
#7
dinosteveus is the master of ebay / paypal - he should know!

I didnt think royal mail covered mobile phones sent by recorded delivery?
#8
Your buyer must be refunded in full. It is NOT their fault you used the wrong service.
Even if you had seller protection and you sent it to a confirmed address the buyer has NOT received it and should be refunded in full.
If you post on ebays P&P board I and all the other regs will tell you exactly the same.

Think how you would feel if it was the other way around.
#9
Are you trying to get out of refunding the buyer?
What is the R/D number?
#10
[SIZE=2]You will need to log in but here is a link to ebays P&P board:-[/SIZE]
http://forums.ebay.co.uk/forum.jspa?forumID=14
banned#11
dinosteveus
Are you trying to get out of refunding the buyer?
What is the R/D number?


r/d????
#12
gary_rip
dinosteveus is the master of ebay / paypal - he should know!

I didnt think royal mail covered mobile phones sent by recorded delivery?


Hi Gary,

Royal Mail do cover Mobiles in the UK, if you send it by Recorded Delivery but only up to £32.00.
If the Mobile is going Overseas, then NO, Royal Mail will NOT refund you if it goes missing, Even if you use ISF or Airsure.
#13
jase159
r/d????

Sorry, Recorded Delivery.
banned#14
dh275361330gb
#15
When was it posted?
banned#16
dinosteveus
When was it posted?


urm, 30/11/2006
#17
dinosteveus
[COLOR="Red"]Your buyer must be refunded in full. It is NOT their fault you used the wrong service[/COLOR].
Even if you had seller protection and you sent it to a confirmed address the buyer has NOT received it and should be refunded in full.
If you post on ebays P&P board I and all the other regs will tell you exactly the same.

Think how you would feel if it was the other way around.


No, but it is their fault for not requesting some form of insured delivery. I would never buy anything on ebay for that sort of value without confirming with the seller in advance that the item was insured against loss or damage.

By using recorded delivery Jase159 has proof the item was posted and he is a legitimate seller, unless the wording of the auction inferred that postage would be insured I think it's very unfair for Paypal to expect him to give a refund.
#18
Scorpius
No, but it is their fault for not requesting some form of insured delivery. I would never buy anything on ebay for that sort of value without confirming with the seller in advance that the item was insured against loss or damage.

By using recorded delivery Jase159 has proof the item was posted and he is a legitimate seller, unless the wording of the auction inferred that postage would be insured I think it's very unfair for Paypal to expect him to give a refund.


What is the matter with you?
It is NOT down to the buyer to make sure the seller packs the item adequately and uses the correct postal service. The buyer has paid for the item, all they want is what they have paid for.

Why do you think Paypal will refund the buyer in full. I have read and I understand Paypals User Agreement.
Also the buyers Credit Card Company would support the buyer as well.

All the information you need to safely trade on ebay and use Paypal, is available on both sites.
#19
I think we can all accept that their is a loss to the seller here, and that we can learn from this mistake?

Just out of question HOW can you send Mobile Phones then, insured? Courier company maybe?
#20
jase159
urm, 30/11/2006

Sorry, this has gone 'walkies'.
You will need to claim for the Mobile, This can be done by filling in a P58 or by calling Royal Mail on 08457 740740. A P58 can be downloaded from the R/M website or you can pick one up from a Post Office.

When did your buyer start the dispute?
#21
MattC
I think we can all accept that their is a loss to the seller here, and that we can learn from this mistake?

Just out of question HOW can you send Mobile Phones then, insured? Courier company maybe?


If the Mobile is worth £32.00 or less then Recorded Delivery is fine.
If it is worth more than £32.00 then it must go by Special Delivery or by a Courier as long as it has adequate Insurance. (Some Couriers cover you for £50 as standard).

I would NOT use the Royal Mail to post a Mobile Overseas because they will not 'insure' it for loss.

You cannot add 'insurance' to First or Second Class post, regardless of using Recorded Delivery.
Standard Parcels is not trackable and you would lose a Paypal dispute if you use this service, but you can add insurance to that service.
#22
Don't get confused with Paypal and the Royal Mail.
Paypal state you must send items using a 'trackable' service, if you don't and the buyer files a dispute Paypal will refund them in full because you cannot show online, that it had been delivered.
If your buyer starts a dispute, then you, the seller can claim against the Royal Mail up to the value of the service used.
#23
dinosteveus
What is the matter with you?
It is NOT down to the buyer to make sure the seller packs the item adequately and uses the correct postal service. The buyer has paid for the item, all they want is what they have paid for.

Why do you think Paypal will refund the buyer in full. I have read and I understand Paypals User Agreement.
Also the buyers Credit Card Company would support the buyer as well.

All the information you need to safely trade on ebay and use Paypal, is available on both sites.


I'm not questioning what Paypal's rules are, I'm sure their policy is as you say it is, it's the fairness of these rules I'm questioning.

If it's clear from an auction listing that postal insurance (i.e. special delivery) isn't included as standard, the buyer doesn't request it and the seller has proof he posted the item, why on earth should the seller have to pay if it gets lost in the post (I mean morally, not legally)?

IMHO if anyone's stupid enough to spend £125 on ebay without even bothering to check if the item they've bought will be sent by registered post and it gets lost in the post, tough. The seller shouldn't have to make a refund nor should paypal.
1 Like #24
Scorpius
I'm not questioning what Paypal's rules are, I'm sure their policy is as you say it is, it's the fairness of these rules I'm questioning.

If it's clear from an auction listing that postal insurance (i.e. special delivery) isn't included as standard, the buyer doesn't request it and the seller has proof he posted the item, why on earth should the seller have to pay if it gets lost in the post (I mean morally, not legally)?

IMHO if anyone's stupid enough to spend £125 on ebay without even bothering to check if the item they've bought will be sent by registered post and it gets lost in the post, tough. The seller shouldn't have to make a refund nor should paypal.


Wow, what a stance to take.

For me it'd be, expect the item to arrive, if it doesn't, money back in full. The item still belongs to the seller until I get it in my hands, and if I never get it in my hands as it were advertised, I'd want my cash back!
#25
Scorpius
I'm not questioning what Paypal's rules are, I'm sure their policy is as you say it is, it's the fairness of these rules I'm questioning.

If it's clear from an auction listing that postal insurance (i.e. special delivery) isn't included as standard, the buyer doesn't request it and the seller has proof he posted the item, why on earth should the seller have to pay if it gets lost in the post (I mean morally, not legally)?

IMHO if anyone's stupid enough to spend £125 on ebay without even bothering to check if the item they've bought will be sent by registered post and it gets lost in the post, tough. The seller shouldn't have to make a refund nor should paypal.


The seller did not send it by the appropriate service. Why is the buyer 'stupid' for not insisting the seller uses the correct postal service. Going on your logic, should the buyer also have said 'you don't mention packing, will you please pack it securely'?



MattC
Wow, what a stance to take.

For me it'd be, expect the item to arrive, if it doesn't, money back in full. The item still belongs to the seller until I get it in my hands, and if I never get it in my hands as it were advertised, I'd want my cash back!


Spot on :thumbsup:

Royal Mail, Ebay and Paypal have rules/Terms & Conditions/User Agreements for a reason. If you don't read and follow them, then mistakes like this happen.
#26
When you listed the item did you give the option for special delivery?
#27
Really, for a phone worth £125, you shold have sent it SP as standard.

A little off topic, what if you were to send a phone, and it was described exactly in the description, but the buyer makes a paypal complaint saying it was not as described (ie. they basically dont want it any more).

Who would win that dispute.
#28
dinosteveus
The seller did not send it by the appropriate service. Why is the buyer 'stupid' for not insisting the seller uses the correct postal service. Going on your logic, should the buyer also have said 'you don't mention packing, will you please pack it securely'?


Every auction lists a charge for postage AND PACKAGING which invalidates that smart a*** comment.

Immediately below that you are told if postal insurance is "included in price", "not offered" or "optional (with an additional charge)". Unless the seller has lied or made a mistake you know if you're covered or not before you pay. So again, why should the buyer expect to claim on insurance they haven't paid for?

Now going by your logic, if you booked a package holiday from a travel agent you'd never heard of before, would you just assume the price included travel insurance or would you actually check before your travelled?

Alternatively, you rent a flat but don't bother to get contents insurance, you simply assume the landlord has already sorted it. If you then got broken into and find the landlord only has buildings insurance, not contents, would you try and sue the landord for the value of the items you lost?

To re-emphasise, I'm aware paypal's rules are different to the law in the above two examples, my point is they shouldn't be.
#29
I posted a powerball techno to a customer, they emailed me saying it was the wrong one, so I asked them to send it back to receive a full refund, however when the powerball was returned it was no longer working and had scuff marks on the bottom, which weren't there when i sold it, because it was brand new.

So I told him I wasn't going to refund because A. It was the correct item which was listed and B because he had broken it, but I did give him the option of me returning it back to him.

Long story short he filed a complaint against me :x after many an arguement, he won the battle, which i find unfair.

but I am sure that it has been said before on here that paypal are more protective over buyers than sellers.

Anyway sending the poor little powerball to be mended so I can resell it :x

slightly off topic sorry
#30
gd_miester
Really, for a phone worth £125, you shold have sent it SP as standard.

A little off topic, what if you were to send a phone, and it was described exactly in the description, but the buyer makes a paypal complaint saying it was not as described (ie. they basically dont want it any more).

Who would win that dispute.


SP. Don't you mean SD ?(Special Delivery as opposed to Standard Parcels)

The buyer would have to prove to Paypal that it was not as described. Paypal usually expect some kind of professional confirmation. They would tell the buyer to either send it back to the Seller. If the seller refused to have it back then they would have to send it to Paypal in the US.
#31
what if.....and i mean what if.......this guy DID receive the phone, but claim he didnt. i mean, was it to be signed for? if not i can see that this situation is open to abuse and the poor seller loses out.
#32
Sorry, meant to write SD = Special Delivery :oops:
#33
shanecr
what if.....and i mean what if.......this guy DID receive the phone, but claim he didnt. i mean, was it to be signed for? if not i can see that this situation is open to abuse and the poor seller loses out.


That is why Paypal state you have to send the item by a trackable means.
If you did and you had Seller Protection Paypal would back you up as long as it showed online that it had been delivered.
banned#34
dinosteveus
That is why Paypal state you have to send the item by a trackable means.
If you did and you had Seller Protection Paypal would back you up as long as it showed online that it had been delivered.


am i supported by seller protection??? as i have all my receipts to prove i posted it
#35
Scorpius
Every auction lists a charge for postage AND PACKAGING which invalidates that smart a*** comment.

Immediately below that you are told if postal insurance is "included in price", "not offered" or "optional (with an additional charge)". Unless the seller has lied or made a mistake you know if you're covered or not before you pay. So again, why should the buyer expect to claim on insurance they haven't paid for?

Now going by your logic, if you booked a package holiday from a travel agent you'd never heard of before, would you just assume the price included travel insurance or would you actually check before your travelled?

Alternatively, you rent a flat but don't bother to get contents insurance, you simply assume the landlord has already sorted it. If you then got broken into and find the landlord only has buildings insurance, not contents, would you try and sue the landord for the value of the items you lost?

To re-emphasise, I'm aware paypal's rules are different to the law in the above two examples, my point is they shouldn't be.


All I am doing is telling you how it is. I don't make the rules.

I understand how the R/M, Ebay and Paypal work and I use that knowledge to try and help others.
If the OP had read my ebay 'tips' then this would not have happened. I did that post, (with a lot of help) to help others.
I even contacted Paypal twice to confirm what I put in the post because a poster did not believe me, I knew it was correct.

What do you want from me? I can't change the Royal Mails Terms and Conditions, Paypals User Agreement or Ebays Terms and Conditions.
#36
jase159
am i supported by seller protection??? as i have all my receipts to prove i posted it


I don't know, it will tell you in your Paypal account. Look for this transaction and click 'details' next to it.
Even if you had Seller Protection this item does not show up as being delivered on the Royal Mail Website so you would still lose the claim because it is a LEGITIMATE claim.
#37
dinosteveus
All I am doing is telling you how it is. I don't make the rules.

I understand how the R/M, Ebay and Paypal work and I use that knowledge to try and help others.
If the OP had read my ebay 'tips' then this would not have happened. I did that post, (with a lot of help) to help others.
I even contacted Paypal twice to confirm what I put in the post because a poster did not believe me, I knew it was correct.

What do you want from me? I can't change the Royal Mails Terms and Conditions, Paypals User Agreement or Ebays Terms and Conditions.


I don't deny any of that, as I've stated twice already I'm not disputing the facts of the rules but the fairness of them.

I suspect we're alike in that neither of us will back down from an argument if we think we're right, so lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
#38
Scorpius
I don't deny any of that, as I've stated twice already I'm not disputing the facts of the rules but the fairness of them.

I suspect we're alike in that neither of us will back down from an argument if we think we're right, so lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


I agree they are not fair, but there is no reason why people can't follow them.

Think about it from the buyers point of view, or if this was on the other foot.

A buyer will always choose the cheapest postal option because they want a 'bargain' and if they know ebay/Paypals rules then they can't lose.
#39
Scorpius
I don't deny any of that, as I've stated twice already I'm not disputing the facts of the rules but the fairness of them.

I suspect we're alike in that neither of us will back down from an argument if we think we're right, so lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


With respect to all parties, surely the point is that the seller signed up for Paypal's and ebay's terms and conditions and therefore needs to abide by them.

I did the same and stopped selling on ebay because of exactly these problems of buyers and sellers abusing the system. I think paypal stinks, especially for selling, although I still use them for buying and very infrequently selling out of convenience.

Paypal do seem to be a law under themselves but until someone takes their terms and conditions through the British courts I guess everyone needs to stick to them.

Just my opinion.
#40
Aside from my earlier gripes the one thing that REALLY p***es me off about this is that ebay especially and to a lesser degree paypal do not make it clear that with paypal buyer protection the seller is liable regardless of insurance. A couple of google searches brings up plenty of evidence that this is the case, as does going on pretty much any ebay related chat forum, but you try looking for it on the Ebay or Paypal websites.

On Paypal.co.uk it states that the seller is liable but doesn't mention one way or the other if it matters if the item is insured. On it's own this would be fair enough, if it wasn't for this on ebay:


Items that are lost or damaged in transit are not eligible for the eBay Standard Purchase Protection Programme unless you are the buyer and one of the following conditions apply:

* You purchased postage insurance and the seller failed to insure the item.
* You purchased postage insurance and your or the seller filed a claim with the carrier, but the claim was denied due to poor packaging.
* You purchased postage insurance and your or the seller filed a claim with the carrier, and the carrier awarded the seller reimbursement but the seller failed to send a refund to you.


...but completely fails to mention that the above does not apply if Paypal is used and the seller will be liable regardless.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/isgw-fraud-shipping-concerns.html

At least after coming across this thread I now know to include insurance on all my auctions, not leave the choice up to the buyer.

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