What makes up your identity? Do you construct it or do others? Is your identity fixed or context-dependent (i.e. do you have multiple identities)? - HotUKDeals
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What makes up your identity? Do you construct it or do others? Is your identity fixed or context-dependent (i.e. do you have multiple identities)?

Liddle ol' me Avatar
8y, 3m agoPosted 8 years, 3 months ago
As above. Lots of questions, prompted by some of the answers in the 'class' thread.
Liddle ol' me Avatar
8y, 3m agoPosted 8 years, 3 months ago
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#1
gee you like your deep and meaningfuls :)
#2
loupomm
gee you like your deep and meaningfuls :)


Yep, sure do. But I get a kick out of 'shallow' and fun nonsense threads too! It depends on the my mood and who I'm talking with. It's a matter of identity you see (or maybe identification is a better term...?) :-D
banned#3
Everything related to "Class" is pure perception in both your own views and that of others.

More interesting though..... whats with the current fixation with members "class"?

Edit.... Ah, I now see above.... a little bit of tro......
#4
I would say that the core of my identity is fixed, such as my morale beliefs and standards. However there are facets of my identity that are context dependent, such as my vocabulary and conversation topics.
#5
guv
Everything related to "Class" is pure perception in both your own views and that of others.

More interesting though..... whats with the current fixation with members "class"?

Edit.... Ah, I now see above.... a little bit of tro......


No not exactly 'pure' perception, but there is a link obviously between class and identity as they are both concerned with how one thinks of oneself and how others perceive you.

(Re your 2nd question, I have no specific interest in members' 'class', but I am interested in how people think about class (and their identity). And that interest obviously extends beyond HUKD - this just happens to be a place where I can gather some opinions and have my own thoughts tested and extended. So incidentally, what do you think about identity? :-D
#6
caz1cool
I would say that the core of my identity is fixed, such as my morale beliefs and standards. However there are facets of my identity that are context dependent, such as my vocabulary and conversation topics.


Ok, so there is a 'core' identity iyo. But why do you think it is fixed? Is it because you have decided these beliefs and standards are not going to change? In which case, I'm thinking that you don't see identity in terms of it being constructed by others (or maybe only weakly constructed by others)? That is, idenity is something that you are in control of and that you (generally) construct for yourself. Another question I've been thinking about is that even if we do assume that we have ultimate control over our identity, to what extent do we construct it in terms of how we want others to perceive us? For me it's pretty hard to think of identity without taking into account the role of others in constructing it, in both of the senses above.
#7
I don't think that identity is a fixed thing. People values change constantly whether they know it or not, and as a result personality changes as well. However, I think that the identity you have 'chosen' to show to x person will pretty much remain constant throughout your relationship. If 'Jim' meets 'Sarah' and is very shy and reserved, chances are that he will remain shy for the entire time he knows her, however this does not necessarily mean that 'Jim' is shy or that he is lacking in confidence, it's just the identity he donned in the company of 'Sarah'; a kind of action-reaction response to someone elses identity.
#8
I have two identities .

E-life
Real-life
#9
black gerbil1
I have two identities .

E-life
Real-life


we have noticed :-D:thumbsup:
#10
jjharvey
I don't think that identity is a fixed thing. People values change constantly whether they know it or not, and as a result personality changes as well. However, I think that the identity you have 'chosen' to show to x person will pretty much remain constant throughout your relationship. If 'Jim' meets 'Sarah' and is very shy and reserved, chances are that he will remain shy for the entire time he knows her, however this does not necessarily mean that 'Jim' is shy or that he is lacking in confidence, it's just the identity he donned in the company of 'Sarah'; a kind of action-reaction response to someone elses identity.


Yes, I agree with the broad thrust of this, although Jim and Sarah's relationship might develop to the point where they can both look back on their early relationship and laugh at the particular identity that was 'donned' at that time. Btw, I like the clothes metaphor for identity. e.g. You can 'try on' the identity of rock star or writer or whatever as part of the process towards actually developing that identity. Perhaps identitities becomes closer to 'fixed' when one becomes comfortable with the fit of the clothes, which usually takes a long time...
#11
Identity defines us - it's who and what we are! While it changes over time, there are some parts of us that will never change and, therefore, we remain fundamentally the same. Even severe trauma can only have a limited effect, as while it may change one's exterior persona and reactions, underneath we would still be the same person. Just my opinion though...
#12
black gerbil1
I have two identities .

E-life
Real-life


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/League_of_Cantankerous_Misanthropes/InternetToughGuy.jpg
#13
Reading through some of your posts before BG1 you seem to be a prime example of shifting identity, an all encompasing personality of sorts. At times funny, charming, nice, then at at others obnoxious, volatile, officious and bad tempered, but (as you'll no doubt read from my post above) it seems to depend on who you are typing to on here, and their identity and representation of it; by the way I'm not trying to start an argument, it's just a casual observation! ;)

The internet is a fantasy playground where adults can behave like children and construct fantastic stories about themselves and their surroundings, a place where the fictisious ramblings of a bored mind can be allowed to wonder, and the individual can express an identity that they wouldn't in everyday life (this also ties in with my above post).
1 Like #14
In forums I am a part time model, stock-broker, sex god come student.

In real life I am just a lazy ass student,



Oh hold on thats someone else,



I is who I is, but personality does switch dependant on situation, i can be no-nonsense, take no carp when needed and at other times Mr soft, depends on the situation and who I am dealing with.
#15
Liddle ol' me
Yes, I agree with the broad thrust of this, although Jim and Sarah's relationship might develop to the point where they can both look back on their early relationship and laugh at the particular identity that was 'donned' at that time. Btw, I like the clothes metaphor for identity. e.g. You can 'try on' the identity of rock star or writer or whatever as part of the process towards actually developing that identity. Perhaps identitities becomes closer to 'fixed' when one becomes comfortable with the fit of the clothes, which usually takes a long time...


You're right about the relaxation effect time has on peoples relationships with one another, but do you think that the identity that our fictional 'Jim' character displayed initially would ever truly dissapear? He may look back and laugh but in all honesty I don't believe he could ever be truly 'himself'.

Saying that, I don't believe any of us are truly comfortable in our own skin (or clothes as the analogy states:) )
#16
harlzter

I is who I is, but personality does switch dependant on situation, i can be no-nonsense, take no carp when needed and at other times Mr soft, depends on the situation and who I am dealing with.


Agreed, same here - but isn't that the difference between personality and identity?
Personality changes according to the situation, whereas identity remains relatively fixed?
#17
tornado5528
Identity defines us - it's who and what we are! While it changes over time, there are some parts of us that will never change and, therefore, we remain fundamentally the same. Even severe trauma can only have a limited effect, as while it may change one's exterior persona and reactions, underneath we would still be the same person. Just my opinion though...


Yes, agree that identities define us, but I'm not sure about us remaining fundamentally the same person throughout a lifetime. Although I do agree that we do lots of 'identity work' towards this aim, for example by holding onto a life 'narrative' that we tell ourselves as a way of keeping that notion of a fixed identity in place. The story of our lives (or stories if you think about the identity you'd like people to believe in and the identity that you believe in - they are not always the same).
banned#18
Liddle ol' me
I am interested in how people think about class (and their identity). And that interest obviously extends beyond HUKD - this just happens to be a place where I can gather some opinions and have my own thoughts tested and extended. So incidentally, what do you think about identity? :-D


Hmmm. Identity to me is a word that describes you and is fixed. ie your ID card etc.Obviously this can change, so in reality, its not really fixed either!

Maybe you are enquiring about a persona? That is something that is obviously not fixed. As far as this forum is concerned (for example), I can play it completely straight, or I can throw in devils advocate. I can be straight humerous or cutting humerous, or just cutting! I guess it all depends on mood swings, how much Ive had to drink or a million other variables you might want to throw in!
#19
Liddle ol' me
Yes, agree that identities define us, but I'm not sure about us remaining fundamentally the same person throughout a lifetime. Although I do agree that we do lots of 'identity work' towards this aim, for example by holding onto a life 'narrative' that we tell ourselves as a way of keeping that notion of a fixed identity in place. The story of our lives (or stories if you think about the identity you'd like people to believe in and the identity that you believe in - they are not always the same).


Can't argue with your logic there, although you do appear to be a little cynical in your approach :p
#20
I think humanity is far too volatile and unpredictable to have a 'fixed' identity; we probably give ourselves too much credit for being 'civilised', when all we are is higher-thinking animals in biological terms; in actuality, animals are probably a good study for this subject. You have a loyal, loving, happy dog that wants your company all the time, it's 'core' identity consists of 'love' for you and its basic animal instincts. One day the dog bites you, has it's core identity changed or was it always there - you just didn't see it? This analogy falls down because humans by and large don't poop in my garden, but hopefuly you see my inner meaning :thumbsup:
banned#21
harlzter
In forums I am a part time model, stock-broker, sex god come student.

In real life I am just a lazy ass student,



Oh hold on thats someone else,



I couldn't possibly begin to think of who this might be refering!!!

Oh wait a minute - its that drug supporting, olympic standard athlete that wants to eat humans!
banned#22
jjharvey
This analogy falls down because humans by and large don't poop in my garden, but hopefuly you see my inner meaning :thumbsup:


That could be remedied! Where do you live?:whistling::p:gift:
#23
Haha! 'Good for the roses' and my neighbour used to say :)
banned#24
jjharvey
Haha! 'Good for the roses' and my neighbour used to say :)


I wouldn't bank on it!:-D My avatar may be a donkey, but...........
#25
jjharvey
You're right about the relaxation effect time has on peoples relationships with one another, but do you think that the identity that our fictional 'Jim' character displayed initially would ever truly dissapear? He may look back and laugh but in all honesty I don't believe he could ever be truly 'himself'.

Saying that, I don't believe any of us are truly comfortable in our own skin
(or clothes as the analogy states:) )


Agreed I think. And part of the usefulness in thinking about identity/ies is that we can problematise the whole notion that there even exists something we can cal the self (at least in the singular).

The comfort question is a good one too. I think many people will attempt to be - and might even be - comfortable in the identity they hold. But in such cases, I imagine that they would need to go to great lengths to avoid questioning the narratives they have bought into. In fact,they would need to spend their lives justifying their narrative and it would necessarily have to be a simple one. I guess they'd also need to keep themselves within a community where the story is unlikely to be disrupted very often. Mixing with others who hold onto different narratives (or worse, those who see identity in terms of social construction) would be too great a risk. I might be wrong on this, but these are the types of people who hold on so tightly to meta-narratives about nationality etc...
#26
Here is where I could pull out the 'Martyr' element of my personality, a fellow poster threatening to defecate on my lawn, couple this with some 'righteous indignation' and some canvassing of others ;"Has he threatened you with such a suprise before? He has?! We should both be as angry!", and before you know it another part of my identity is created/shifted.

Thanks for the insightful example guv :D
#27
Liddle ol' me
I might be wrong on this, but these are the types of people who hold on so tightly to meta-narratives about nationality etc...


Are you talking about Patriotism there, Liddle?
#28
Liddle ol' me
Agreed I think. And part of the usefulness in thinking about identity/ies is that we can problematise the whole notion that there even exists something we can cal the self (at least in the singular).

The comfort question is a good one too. I think many people will attempt to be - and might even be - comfortable in the identity they hold. But in such cases, I imagine that they would need to go to great lengths to avoid questioning the narratives they have bought into. In fact,they would need to spend their lives justifying their narrative and it would necessarily have to be a simple one. I guess they'd also need to keep themselves within a community where the story is unlikely to be disrupted very often. Mixing with others who hold onto different narratives (or worse, those who see identity in terms of social construction) would be too great a risk. I might be wrong on this, but these are the types of people who hold on so tightly to meta-narratives about nationality etc...


I understand what you're saying here Liddle, but would also like to add that in my humble (and uninformed) position, it would seem to be a dangerous thing to become completely 'comfortable', it (as you pointed out) would surely make you socially rejected and lead others to finding you strangely serene. Do you think Nationalism is a dangerous and ultimately stupid idea Liddle?

Have to go out soon, but will be back in an hour or two :thumbsup:
#29
caz1cool:
I would say that the core of my identity is fixed, such as my morale beliefs and standards. However there are facets of my identity that are context dependent, such as my vocabulary and conversation topics.

Liddle ol' me "Ok, so there is a 'core' identity iyo. But why do you think it is fixed? Is it because you have decided these beliefs and standards are not going to change? In which case, I'm thinking that you don't see identity in terms of it being constructed by others (or maybe only weakly constructed by others)? That is, idenity is something that you are in control of and that you (generally) construct for yourself. Another question I've been thinking about is that even if we do assume that we have ultimate control over our identity, to what extent do we construct it in terms of how we want others to perceive us? For me it's pretty hard to think of identity without taking into account the role of others in constructing it, in both of the senses above."

Sorry, I didn't explain that too well.
I mean that my 'core' identity is the part that was instilled in me as a child and altered by life changing or important experiences and/or people. I see that as the part of me that has almost been decided by my sub conscious and not really influenced by conscious thought. The facets of my identity that can be context dependable are the parts that I would not consider to be my core identity. I believe that they are the parts that can be interchangeable without changing me as a person. The vocabulary that you use, accent, who you speak to are not considered (by me) to really be a good measure of who you are as a person.
#30
tornado5528
Are you talking about Patriotism there, Liddle?


Well, 'nationalism' is more suggestive of the type of think I'm referring to. Patriotism is generally seen as a 'soft' form of nationalism, and in many cases it might be benign. But words can be manipulated, and it's probably easier for me to think in terms of hard-line nationalists who will put their nationality before rational thought. As for me - the question will come eventually I suppose - I don't hold onto a national identity strongly at all, although I do feel a connection with (maybe pride at times) various cultural achievements made by people who have been brought up in the same area as me. But I don't believe those cultural achievements are better than similar achievements from people from other regions. I think that answers what I read as your broader question...?
#31
jjharvey
it would seem to be a dangerous thing to become completely 'comfortable', it (as you pointed out) would surely make you socially rejected and lead others to finding you strangely serene. Do you think Nationalism is a dangerous and ultimately stupid idea Liddle?


In some contexts a consistent idenity is valued. Think of BNP leaders - inconsistent narratives wouldn't be viewed well amongst many of their supporters. And the example also answers your second question. Ultimately? Don't know about that - it seems a bit strong - but it certainly can lead to irrational thinking / behaviour which can translate into real dangers.

caz1cool
I mean that my 'core' identity is the part that was instilled in me as a child and altered by life changing or important experiences and/or people. I see that as the part of me that has almost been decided by my sub conscious and not really influenced by conscious thought. The facets of my identity that can be context dependable are the parts that I would not consider to be my core identity. I believe that they are the parts that can be interchangeable without changing me as a person. The vocabulary that you use, accent, who you speak to are not considered (by me) to really be a good measure of who you are as a person.


Thanks for clarifying that :thumbsup: What you are referring to as your core identity I would see as 'habitus', a term used by Pierre Bourdieu. No time to explain it fully now, but you can probably get a good idea of it's meaning by the word itself. There is a good wiki page on the man's thinking too, probably a subsection on habitus too.

Got to take a break now. Will check back later :)
#32
Liddle ol' me
Well, 'nationalism' is more suggestive of the type of think I'm referring to. Patriotism is generally seen as a 'soft' form of nationalism, and in many cases it might be benign. But words can be manipulated, and it's probably easier for me to think in terms of hard-line nationalists who will put their nationality before rational thought. As for me - the question will come eventually I suppose - I don't hold onto a national identity strongly at all, although I do feel a connection with (maybe pride at times) various cultural achievements made by people who have been brought up in the same area as me. But I don't believe those cultural achievements are better than similar achievements from people from other regions. I think that answers what I read as your broader question...?


It does, to a certain extent, although I personally would not equate Patriotism in any way with Nationalism - to me, the two are distinct in their own right.
#33
tornado5528
It does, to a certain extent, although I personally would not equate Patriotism in any way with Nationalism - to me, the two are distinct in their own right.


Good. Which also goes to show that it's not the labels themselves we should be 'against', but rather the intent of the user. That's why I mentioned the manipulation of words in answer to your original question. I can't disagree with someone who says patriotism or nationalism are a good thing unless I know what they mean by the terms and, more importantly, what they are trying to do with them. Unfortunately, patriotism is sometimes used in the same way as nationalism is often used for less-than-benign purposes. In fact, it is sometimes used in a cynical way by those who are deliberately trying to obscure their true meanings/attitude. The good thing about a training in linguistics though (which I have) is that you are able to pick up other clues in people's language use which betray their real attitude. But as this identity thread shows, I also think people's attitudes can be in a constant form of change, depending on how 'open' they are to listening and considering other opinions.

So I guess my next question has to be, what is your understanding of / attitude towards patriotism?
banned#34
I am what I am..............................................:-D

I am no different here to what I am in real life, maybe just a little more tamer and pc here;-)
#35
Im a proud Serbian
and a proud Brit :)
#36
loupomm
gee you like your deep and meaningfuls :)


lol get used to it, if your still about to do the course i just did its full of these very questions :roll:
#37
Liddle ol' me
Good. Which also goes to show that it's not the labels themselves we should be 'against', but rather the intent of the user. That's why I mentioned the manipulation of words in answer to your original question. I can't disagree with someone who says patriotism or nationalism are a good thing unless I know what they mean by the terms and, more importantly, what they are trying to do with them. Unfortunately, patriotism is sometimes used in the same way as nationalism is often used for less-than-benign purposes. In fact, it is sometimes used in a cynical way by those who are deliberately trying to obscure their true meanings/attitude. The good thing about a training in linguistics though (which I have) is that you are able to pick up other clues in people's language use which betray their real attitude. But as this identity thread shows, I also think people's attitudes can be in a constant form of change, depending on how 'open' they are to listening and considering other opinions.

So I guess my next question has to be, what is your understanding of / attitude towards patriotism?


Mclovin
Im a proud Serbian
and a proud Brit :)


There's a classic answer to your question to me from Mclovin - I take Patriotism to be be a sense of pride in a culture/environment to which one feels an intrinsic connection; not to the exclusion of all else: rather the inclusion of some who would otherwise not neccesarily make any sort of connection to others around them. The point Mclovin's post makes is that one can still feel patriotic to a Nation's ideals, whilst holding to the cultural legacies coming from their 'racial' background - this is why, to me, patriotism is sooooooo different to Nationalism.
Hope I've explained that one right :)
1 Like #38
tornado5528
There's a classic answer to your question to me from Mclovin - I take Patriotism to be be a sense of pride in a culture/environment to which one feels an intrinsic connection; not to the exclusion of all else: rather the inclusion of some who would otherwise not neccesarily make any sort of connection to others around them. The point Mclovin's post makes is that one can still feel patriotic to a Nation's ideals, whilst holding to the cultural legacies coming from their 'racial' background - this is why, to me, patriotism is sooooooo different to Nationalism.
Hope I've explained that one right :)


Yes, that's a very good explanation, and on that definition I can also say that I feel patriotic with regard to at least five countries. The only thing I'd take any issue with in your post :p is that Mclovin actually said what you did. His answer said nothing about what he means by this patriotism, and as i said earlier, unless we understand the meaning someone intends then we can't really judge one way or the other, although we can rerly on other contextual information to make a best guess (e.g. things they have said previously about culture, other countries, wars etc, etc). So yes, I like your answer but you give too much credit to Mclovin' for his. he might have meant the same kind of thing as you, but equally he might have meant something very different :thumbsup:
#39
Liddle ol' me
Yes, that's a very good explanation, and on that definition I can also say that I feel patriotic with regard to at least five countries. The only thing I'd take any issue with in your post :p is that Mclovin actually said what you did. His answer said nothing about what he means by this patriotism, and as i said earlier, unless we understand the meaning someone intends then we can't really judge one way or the other, although we can rerly on other contextual information to make a best guess (e.g. things they have said previously about culture, other countries, wars etc, etc). So yes, I like your answer but you give too much credit to Mclovin' for his. he might have meant the same kind of thing as you, but equally he might have meant something very different :thumbsup:


no i meant what he said. i just dont analyse everything in depth :P
#40
Liddle ol' me
Yes, that's a very good explanation, and on that definition I can also say that I feel patriotic with regard to at least five countries. The only thing I'd take any issue with in your post :p is that Mclovin actually said what you did. His answer said nothing about what he means by this patriotism, and as i said earlier, unless we understand the meaning someone intends then we can't really judge one way or the other, although we can rerly on other contextual information to make a best guess (e.g. things they have said previously about culture, other countries, wars etc, etc). So yes, I like your answer but you give to much credit to Mclovin' for his :thumbsup:


Fair point - maybe I was looking to much into the meaning I felt was behind his words, and not spending enough time analysing the actual words themselves. IMHO, I still believe that is what he was attempting to say, but I'll stand corrected for now until he confirms this :thumbsup:

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