16th november, 2017 - free screening on the isle of wight : NHS anti-abolition movie
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16th november, 2017 - free screening on the isle of wight : NHS anti-abolition movie

42
Edited by:"seb"Found 2nd Nov
...This film gives a fascinating and worrying insight into the current situation from the perspective of doctors, nurses and senior health care professionals.

The government’s
Sustainability and Transformation Plans (STPs) are the latest attempt to cut, close and privatise our services.

Our NHS was 69 years old this year. After watching this film you will wonder whether she will reach her 70th birthday...

THE VENUE : quayarts.org/you…us/

Top comments

How many people saw anti-abortion?
42 Comments

Yes, its always good to get different perspectives on things. Jeremy Hunt was involved in a policy document in 2005 called "Direct Democracy: An Agenda For A New Model Party", co-authoring a piece about replacing the NHS with a US style system. So its not entirely far fetched when people suggest that some of his policies are designed to cause problems in the NHS, and that these could be used as a pretext for increasing privatisation, until we reach a point where we have the NHS only as a brand. I am personally not entirely against some of the alternative systems they have in France or Germany which combine private and public because they keep the patient at the centre. But the US system keeps the profits of the insurance companies at their centre.

I'm against selling off or even part privatizing the NHS and am not a tory but I'm not sure that hotukdeals is the best place to post political stuff.

When the doctors are asked to be involved in the charging of foreign medical tourists as nearly all countries do they say were not tax collectors and then state the health service is underfunded. Have always believed in the saying , look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.
Edited by: "morrig" 2nd Nov

How many people saw anti-abortion?

Mozart32115 m ago

I'm against selling off or even part privatizing the NHS and am not a tory …I'm against selling off or even part privatizing the NHS and am not a tory but I'm not sure that hotukdeals is the best place to post political stuff.


A fair point. It depends how people respond to it and the nature of the film. Its sad that the NHS is considered political really, isn't it? We all have a common interest in health care, but its impossible to discuss it for long before people retreat into entrenched views of either refusing to admit the NHS can ever do anything wrong, or seeing every imperfection as proof that it is an irredeemably failed concept.

The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world...

m5rcc3 m ago

The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world...


Seriously?

It offers incredible value for money compared to pretty much any other health system I can think of.

But yeah. It is being driven into the ground at the moment.

CaptainSocks3 m ago

Seriously? It offers incredible value for money compared to pretty much …Seriously? It offers incredible value for money compared to pretty much any other health system I can think of. But yeah. It is being driven into the ground at the moment.


Even though the UK spends 2.5x less than other European nations, has some of the worst Europeans scores for health outcomes?

The NHS has to change the way it charges patients - no-one copies the NHS model for good reason - it does not work.

89quidyoucantgowrong14 m ago

How many people saw anti-abortion?


+1
might explain some of the cold votes
heat added free is free

unlike the NHS if you keep voting Tory

m5rcc13 m ago

The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world...


A good example of the sort of inflammatory evidence free statement which unfortunately makes the NHS difficult to discuss properly. There are a lot of alternative health systems around the world, I think some European ones are better, but then they cost a lot more per head. The US one is better if you have money or a good job with full cover, but its twice as expensive as ours. And,if you have the misfortune to be between jobs when your children need treatment, it could be use your life savings and sell your house time. I don't envy that prospect much.

M_z2 m ago

A good example of the sort of inflammatory evidence free statement which …A good example of the sort of inflammatory evidence free statement which unfortunately makes the NHS difficult to discuss properly. There are a lot of alternative health systems around the world, I think some European ones are better, but then they cost a lot more per head. The US one is better if you have money or a good job with full cover, but its twice as expensive as ours. And,if you have the misfortune to be between jobs when your children need treatment, it could be use your life savings and sell your house time. I don't envy that prospect much.


Evidence? I have plenty: read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare. The UK came first in safest care, care processes, affordability and equity. Two of the four categories the UK shone in were down to our free-at-the-point-of-use policy.

Of course we are more affordable than they others, because you don't get a bill when you leave an NHS hospital, and of course we won on the most equity of our care because you do not get screened for wealth or insurance before they treat you.

But who cares if it is free-at-the-point-of-use when the quality of healthcare and survival is rock bottom?

m5rcc12 m ago

Even though the UK spends 2.5x less than other European nations, has some …Even though the UK spends 2.5x less than other European nations, has some of the worst Europeans scores for health outcomes?The NHS has to change the way it charges patients - no-one copies the NHS model for good reason - it does not work.


Hmmm.

Depends who you believe really.

Yeah... the NHS is always rated mediocre by the Euro Health Consumer Index. BUT it's usually HCP that conducts that. Private company funded by drug company money. Funny how they think more private involvement would improve things no?

For context:

In 2014 the NHS was ranked the best and most efficient health service in the world by the independent Commonwealth Fund.

As I said, there are huge issues at the moment. But it's underfunded by the government so hardly surprising really.
Edited by: "CaptainSocks" 2nd Nov

CaptainSocks1 m ago

For context:In 2014 the NHS was ranked the best and most efficient health …For context:In 2014 the NHS was ranked the best and most efficient health service in the world by the independent Commonwealth Fund.


Read the latest version from July 2017 and my point on the post above.

m5rcc2 m ago

Read the latest version from July 2017 and my point on the post above.


???


NHS is still ranked top in 2017 by the Independent Commonwealth Fund.

google.co.uk/amp…vey

m5rcc5 m ago

Evidence? I have plenty: read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare. …Evidence? I have plenty: read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare. The UK came first in safest care, care processes, affordability and equity. Two of the four categories the UK shone in were down to our free-at-the-point-of-use policy. Of course we are more affordable than they others, because you don't get a bill when you leave an NHS hospital, and of course we won on the most equity of our care because you do not get screened for wealth or insurance before they treat you.But who cares if it is free-at-the-point-of-use when the quality of healthcare and survival is rock bottom?


Yes, but your original comment to which I responded was "The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world...", wasn't it? Eight words...

If you had initially stated your case with your reasons for making it, that would have been different. Wouldn't it?

CaptainSocks1 m ago

??? NHS is still ranked top in 2017 by the Independent Commonwealth …??? NHS is still ranked top in 2017 by the Independent Commonwealth Fund.https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/14/nhs-holds-on-to-top-spot-in-healthcare-survey


Read what I wrote....

M_z1 m ago

Yes, but your original comment to which I responded was "The NHS - the …Yes, but your original comment to which I responded was "The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world...", wasn't it? Eight words...If you had initially stated your case with your reasons for making it, that would have been different. Wouldn't it?:)


No - it wouldn't. It's a perfectly valid statement to make.

m5rcc4 m ago

No - it wouldn't. It's a perfectly valid statement to make.


"The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world..." Yes, a valid statement if your intention is just to provoke a reaction.

M_z45 s ago

"The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world..." Yes, a valid statement if …"The NHS - the envy of the (Third) world..." Yes, a valid statement if your intention is just to provoke a reaction.


A reaction or debate?

m5rcc8 m ago

Read what I wrote....


I did.

It's wrong.

The UK rates very very poorly on healthcare outcomes.

That basically means the NHS isn't good at getting fat people thin etc etc. But loads of cuts have savaged a lot of community services, so I'm not hugely surprised.

But in terms of saving lives (what they call "mortality amenable to healthcare") the NHS has improved more than anyone else this past decade.

Commendable that.

But yes. I agree austerity has damaged our healthcare outcomes ranking hugely and needs improvement. I think most recognise that.
Edited by: "CaptainSocks" 2nd Nov

We have seen issues in the iow like poor services CEOs and GP provision .Just the place to show and then what....Private services are like dentists and you will get not afford even if wealthy and retired or opticians and hearing aids which charge £300 - 3000 . Sad for those who need private care

Can see NHS selloff coming as at moment it's been starved of cash and resources to make it look bad
Then after selloff they will put loads cash (our taxes ) into the private company's and be big earner for share holders
Did exactly the same with railways just look at what that's cost tax payer since privatization

m5rcc22 m ago

Evidence? I have plenty: read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare. …Evidence? I have plenty: read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare. The UK came first in safest care, care processes, affordability and equity. Two of the four categories the UK shone in were down to our free-at-the-point-of-use policy. Of course we are more affordable than they others, because you don't get a bill when you leave an NHS hospital, and of course we won on the most equity of our care because you do not get screened for wealth or insurance before they treat you.But who cares if it is free-at-the-point-of-use when the quality of healthcare and survival is rock bottom?


Not true either.
Pretty much all the countries except America compared by the Commonwealth Fund Report are free at point of service for the vast majority.

CaptainSocks9 m ago

I did. It's wrong. The UK rates very very poorly on healthcare …I did. It's wrong. The UK rates very very poorly on healthcare outcomes.That basically means the NHS isn't good at getting fat people thin etc etc. But loads of cuts have savaged a lot of community services, so I'm not hugely surprised. But in terms of saving lives (what they call "mortality amenable to healthcare") the NHS has improved more than anyone else this past decade.Commendable that. But yes. I agree austerity has damaged our healthcare outcomes ranking hugely and needs improvement. I think most recognise that.


Why should the NHS be responsible for "getting fat people thin etc etc"?

I would worry more about the five year survival rates for breast and bowel cancer and deaths among people admitted to hospital after a stroke, for instance, which are very poor compared to those other countries on the list.

That, to me, seems to be something of a problem when it comes to rating our health care as excellent or indeed the best and most efficient.

That tells me that when one is ill, the NHS will treat you commendably quickly and fairly but one might not survive long enough to celebrate that fact. But don't worry; it is not as bad as that. It's far worse.

Check the Legatum Institute's tenth annual global Prosperity Index from last November. Its components of its ranking is how healthy a country's people are, measured by three key variables: a country's basic mental and physical health, health infrastructure, and the availability of preventative care.

Guess where the UK was in their list of the top 16 performing countries? That's right, nowhere...

We came in at a lowly 20th place for health, behind all of the countries we supposedly beat in the Commonwealth Fund's list. Super for the the supposedly fifth largest economy in the world.

CaptainSocks52 s ago

Not true either. Pretty much all the countries except America compared by …Not true either. Pretty much all the countries except America compared by the Commonwealth Fund Report are free at point of service for the vast majority.


Wrong - not true in Spain, France, Germany (given that I've lived there).

7day4 m ago

We have seen issues in the iow like poor services CEOs and GP provision …We have seen issues in the iow like poor services CEOs and GP provision .Just the place to show and then what....Private services are like dentists and you will get not afford even if wealthy and retired or opticians and hearing aids which charge £300 - 3000 . Sad for those who need private care


And yet the turkeys down there keep voting for Christmas....

m5rcc1 m ago

Wrong - not true in Spain, France, Germany (given that I've lived there).


Spain isn't on their index.

Germany and France both have free universal healthcare unless you opt out or upgrade.

I've lived in both myself.

CaptainSocks1 m ago

Spain isn't on their index. Germany and France both have free universal …Spain isn't on their index. Germany and France both have free universal healthcare unless you opt out or upgrade. I've lived in both myself.


Spain is a European country last time I checked.

You need to pay to see a GP or consultant in Germany and France.

m5rcc4 m ago

Super for the the supposedly fifth largest economy in the world.


We have the lowest level of health service funding as a percentage of GDP in the developed world too now.

CaptainSocks1 m ago

We have the lowest level of health service funding as a percentage of GDP …We have the lowest level of health service funding as a percentage of GDP in the developed world too now.


And whose fault is that? The electorate does not want to pay 1/2/3/4/5p more in the Pound for better healthcare.

m5rcc2 m ago

Spain is a European country last time I checked.You need to pay to see a …Spain is a European country last time I checked.You need to pay to see a GP or consultant in Germany and France.



Spain isn't on the Commonwealth Fund Index.

RE: Germany and France, not if you earn below a certain amount you don't. So you think we should charge more affluent people to help the poor see GPs like they do in Germany and France?

CaptainSocks1 m ago

Spain isn't on the Commonwealth Fund Index. RE: Germany and France, not if …Spain isn't on the Commonwealth Fund Index. RE: Germany and France, not if you earn below a certain amount you don't. So you think we should charge more affluent people to help the poor see GPs like they do in Germany and France?


Those who can afford it should pay, obviously. Those who can't should not. Very simple.

m5rcc13 m ago

And whose fault is that? The electorate does not want to pay 1/2/3/4/5p …And whose fault is that? The electorate does not want to pay 1/2/3/4/5p more in the Pound for better healthcare.


They wouldn't have to if we weren't cutting taxes elsewhere in the economy. Or perhaps you're right and we should start charging those who can afford it for services like GPs etc. Could work I guess.

You asked "why should the NHS be responsible for getting fat people thin"? On the surface of course it shouldn't... but it's a question of prevention being cheaper than treatment once obesity occurs isn't it? Short-term cuts for immediate gain that actually cost more in the long-term. Theme of a lot of austerity overall that.
Edited by: "CaptainSocks" 2nd Nov

CaptainSocks7 m ago

They wouldn't have to if we weren't cutting taxes elsewhere in the economy.


Cutting taxes does not work. The majority of the world's tax havens have the most unhappiest inhabitants. Coincidentally, the happiest are the ones with higher tax rates and better healthcare.


CaptainSocks7 m ago

Or perhaps you're right and we should start charging those who can afford …Or perhaps you're right and we should start charging those who can afford it for services like GPs etc. Could work I guess.


Could work? Of course it works - it works everywhere else that applies that policy. Protect the poor/disabled/young, but those who can afford should pay. We pay for dental access in the UK. Why not to see the GP?


CaptainSocks7 m ago

You asked "why should the NHS be responsible for getting fat people thin"? …You asked "why should the NHS be responsible for getting fat people thin"? On the surface of course it shouldn't... but it's a question of prevention being cheaper than treatment once obesity occurs isn't it?


Fat people are often fat because of poor lifestyle choices made worse by cheap access to fast food. The government should not go down such a path, whilst trying to maintain tax revenue on alcohol, tobacco and sugars.


CaptainSocks7 m ago

Short-term cuts for immediate gain that actually cost more in the …Short-term cuts for immediate gain that actually cost more in the long-term. Theme of a lot of austerity overall that.


The UK went through austerity because we were spending more than we taking in. One needs to remember that the current UK tax take is £2bn every day but that is not enough. Taxation needs to rise to pay for the NHS and/or change the way clients are serviced.

m5rcc10 m ago

.One needs to remember that the current UK tax take is £2bn every day but ….One needs to remember that the current UK tax take is £2bn every day but that is not enough. Taxation needs to rise to pay for the NHS and/or change the way clients are serviced.


I agree with much of what you say, but it was really a collapse in tax revenue post-2008 and our slowly aging (and consequently expensive) population NOT a sudden catastrophic spike in spending that did for us.

Don't forget the pound is worth almost a quarter less than it was a mere 7 years ago. So spending appears to be going up, but in real terms it isn't.

I know that's not the standard Osborne myth but there you go.

Either way, most of the cuts our council has made have ended up costing us more money longterm...
Edited by: "CaptainSocks" 2nd Nov

CaptainSocks3 m ago

I agree with much of what you say, but it was really a collapse in tax …I agree with much of what you say, but it was really a collapse in tax revenue post-2008 and our slowly aging (and consequently expensive) population NOT a sudden catastrophic spike in spending that did for us. I know that's not the standard Osborne myth but there you go.Either way, most of the cuts our council has made have ended up costing us more money longterm...


A collapse fueled by an over reliance on services, notably financial services. The same industry that Mother Theresa thinks she is going to keep in a post-Brexit world.
Edited by: "m5rcc" 2nd Nov

m5rcc1 m ago

A collapse fueleed by an over reliance on services, notably financial …A collapse fueleed by an over reliance on services, notably financial services. The same industry that Mother Theresa thinks she is going to keep in a post-Brexit world.


Yeah.

You're spot on there.

All our eggs in one basket.

Bit of a bugger when the basket catches fire....

CaptainSocks3 m ago

Either way, most of the cuts our council has made have ended up costing us …Either way, most of the cuts our council has made have ended up costing us more money longterm...


The problem with all governments, whether local or national, is that they are short-termists. Why instill policy that will take a generation to bear fruit and not see it in their Premiership?

m5rcc1 m ago

The problem with all governments, whether local or national, is that they …The problem with all governments, whether local or national, is that they are short-termists. Why instill policy that will take a generation to bear fruit and not see it in their Premiership?


Spot on again!

It's infuriating!

CaptainSocks10 h, 7 m ago

Seriously? It offers incredible value for money compared to pretty much …Seriously? It offers incredible value for money compared to pretty much any other health system I can think of. But yeah. It is being driven into the ground at the moment.

Come over from India, get your hip replaced for free, go home.
Your right. That's amazing value for money!
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