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Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World by Niall Ferguson £2.99 @ Amazon (+£2.99 Non-prime)
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Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World by Niall Ferguson £2.99 @ Amazon (+£2.99 Non-prime)

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Posted 27th Nov 2019

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Empire by Niall Ferguson. Superb account of an amazingly interesting period in British history, expertly written by one of the best historians of his generation. An absolute must read...
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PeteRobinson27/11/2019 17:50

Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural …Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc? Every day is a school day.


Slavery was being practiced in Africa long before they'd seen a white person, and still goes on today. You're judging the British Empire out of context, by the standards of today. If you judge it against it's peers, it was no more brutal than the rest of the world, it was just better at empire building. The British were also amongst the most progressive people in the world, and an early force in abolishing slavery, and not only did they abolish it, they actively fought against it, deploying navy ships to the Atlantic to commandeer slave ships and liberate slaves. The British Empire gave legal and banking systems, and democracy to the world. Before the British arrived in India, wives whose husband's died were burned on the funeral pyre. They educated Indians, and left behind infrastructure such as a vast railway network, roads and bridges. Of course, you're going to mention the bad stuff, but if the British hadn't colonised the places it did, the Dutch, French, Germans or Portuguese would have, and they were just as brutal as the British. The British brought civilisation to the world, and sacrificed it's empire to fight the Nazi's. You should probably buy the book, £3 is a great price to be a little less ignorant.
Edited by: "RuudBullit" 27th Nov 2019
Bought - to find out how the author justifies the atrocities we committed by saying it was for their own good.
Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure to come to terms with the loss of empire is why the place is in such trouble now.

An interesting demographic on here though, skint tories.
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 17:50

Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural …Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc? Every day is a school day.


There was all those things before the British empire. In actual fact Britain lead the way in banishing slavery. But of course feel free to be selective and critisise one particular group of trailblazers who lived in different times...
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Pity the Kindle version is £5.49.
Spelt 'plundered' incorrectly.
I love that kind of stuff. ordered
Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc?

Every day is a school day.
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 17:50

Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural …Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc? Every day is a school day.


Phew.... I thought you was going to do a Lily Allen and apologise on all our behalves.....(Including teary breakdown)
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 17:50

Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural …Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc? Every day is a school day.


There was all those things before the British empire. In actual fact Britain lead the way in banishing slavery. But of course feel free to be selective and critisise one particular group of trailblazers who lived in different times...
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 17:50

Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural …Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc? Every day is a school day.


Slavery was being practiced in Africa long before they'd seen a white person, and still goes on today. You're judging the British Empire out of context, by the standards of today. If you judge it against it's peers, it was no more brutal than the rest of the world, it was just better at empire building. The British were also amongst the most progressive people in the world, and an early force in abolishing slavery, and not only did they abolish it, they actively fought against it, deploying navy ships to the Atlantic to commandeer slave ships and liberate slaves. The British Empire gave legal and banking systems, and democracy to the world. Before the British arrived in India, wives whose husband's died were burned on the funeral pyre. They educated Indians, and left behind infrastructure such as a vast railway network, roads and bridges. Of course, you're going to mention the bad stuff, but if the British hadn't colonised the places it did, the Dutch, French, Germans or Portuguese would have, and they were just as brutal as the British. The British brought civilisation to the world, and sacrificed it's empire to fight the Nazi's. You should probably buy the book, £3 is a great price to be a little less ignorant.
Edited by: "RuudBullit" 27th Nov 2019
Bought - to find out how the author justifies the atrocities we committed by saying it was for their own good.
mitchram12327/11/2019 17:26

I love that kind of stuff. ordered



This is one of the best British history books I've ever read. You won't be disappointed. The English & Their History by Robert Tombs is also very good.
We're GOAT
Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure to come to terms with the loss of empire is why the place is in such trouble now.

An interesting demographic on here though, skint tories.
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 20:15

Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure …Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure to come to terms with the loss of empire is why the place is in such trouble now. An interesting demographic on here though, skint tories.


I'm neither skint, nor a Tory. Nobody's justifying it, but the whole world at that time was cruel and oppressive. The Empire was of its time, and should be judged as such. I suspect left wing propaganda means much more to you than fact though. Like I say, buy the book and educate yourself.
No book will cure your attitude buddy.
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 20:32

No book will cure your attitude buddy.



Rather than "coming to terms" with Empire, why not study and understand it first?
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 17:50

Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural …Who knew that 'made' = slavery, rape, theft, genocide, cultural appropriation etc? Every day is a school day.


Love it, must have been that viking blood in us!
Half Irish half Brit here. Britain funnelled all available food from Ireland to Britain, leaving millions to die of starvation, exposure to the elements, illness. Millions more fled to America where they were dragged into the Civil War. Most people think we only had our potatoes, like narrow minded Neanderthals. There is a lot of darkness in British history wished away by modern romanticism or stubbornness. We must be honest and say most if not all empires were founded on, and maintained by, cruelty, terror and power.

To say otherwise is to marvel at a blades shape while ignoring its serrated edge and its many stains of blood.
Won a signed copy of his Ascent of Money from Channel 4 after the series aired, brilliant series and book. Ill give this a whirl.
Ordered, thanks OP
jimel28/11/2019 12:06

Half Irish half Brit here. Britain funnelled all available food from …Half Irish half Brit here. Britain funnelled all available food from Ireland to Britain, leaving millions to die of starvation, exposure to the elements, illness. Millions more fled to America where they were dragged into the Civil War. Most people think we only had our potatoes, like narrow minded Neanderthals. There is a lot of darkness in British history wished away by modern romanticism or stubbornness. We must be honest and say most if not all empires were founded on, and maintained by, cruelty, terror and power. To say otherwise is to marvel at a blades shape while ignoring its serrated edge and its many stains of blood.


The Irish suffered at the hands of the British after gaining independence, but were complicit in empire building before that. I'm certainly not romanticising it, my point is, the British shouldn't be singled out, and good things did come from the empire, albeit at great cost. The world during that period was a brutal one. Many nations were cruel and oppressive, and trying to build empires. Before the race for Africa, African tribes were cruel and oppressive to other African tribes. The British shouldn't be singled out as being brutal in a time when everyone was brutal. We were technologically more advanced than the Africans and Indians, and had a better banking system than the European empires, enabling us to issue bonds and raise vast sums of money for military purposes. The British are too often held up as being the most brutal, when in reality they were the most successful.
Edited by: "RuudBullit" 28th Nov 2019
RuudBullit28/11/2019 12:55

The Irish suffered at the hands of the British after gaining … The Irish suffered at the hands of the British after gaining independence, but were complicit in empire building before that. I'm certainly not romanticising it, my point is, the British shouldn't be singled out, and good things did come from the empire, albeit at great cost. The world during that period was a brutal one. Many nations were cruel and oppressive, and trying to build empires. Before the race for Africa, African tribes were cruel and oppressive to other African tribes. The British shouldn't be singled out as being brutal in a time when everyone was brutal. We were technologically more advanced than the Africans and Indians, and had a better banking system than the European empires, enabling us to issue bonds and raise vast sums of money for military purposes. The British are too often held up as being the most brutal, when in reality they were the most successful.


Ireland wasnt independent in the 18th Century, during the "Famine', when food was rife but unavailable to all but British and Anglo-Irish.
jimel28/11/2019 13:05

Ireland wasnt independent in the 18th Century, during the "Famine', when …Ireland wasnt independent in the 18th Century, during the "Famine', when food was rife but unavailable to all but British and Anglo-Irish.


No you're right, but what I meant and worded really badly, was that Irish soldiers fought and colonised when they could. Suffering later and gaining independence doesn't absolve them, but they're not looked at in the same way as the British. It was a horrible dog eat dog world, and people confuse success with brutality. The brutality was of its time.
Very, very good book. Perfect antidote to the twisted Marxist view of history that prevails thanks to the PC, woke, SJW brigade (and the BBC).
RuudBullit27/11/2019 18:48

Slavery was being practiced in Africa long before they'd seen a white … Slavery was being practiced in Africa long before they'd seen a white person, and still goes on today. You're judging the British Empire out of context, by the standards of today. If you judge it against it's peers, it was no more brutal than the rest of the world, it was just better at empire building. The British were also amongst the most progressive people in the world, and an early force in abolishing slavery, and not only did they abolish it, they actively fought against it, deploying navy ships to the Atlantic to commandeer slave ships and liberate slaves. The British Empire gave legal and banking systems, and democracy to the world. Before the British arrived in India, wives whose husband's died were burned on the funeral pyre. They educated Indians, and left behind infrastructure such as a vast railway network, roads and bridges. Of course, you're going to mention the bad stuff, but if the British hadn't colonised the places it did, the Dutch, French, Germans or Portuguese would have, and they were just as brutal as the British. The British brought civilisation to the world, and sacrificed it's empire to fight the Nazi's. You should probably buy the book, £3 is a great price to be a little less ignorant.


Bullocks. You got this out of your ass?

Indians were way more educated. India used to contribute 25 percent to world GDP before British came in and took all that away and destroyed everything. Caused famine and droughts. Killed people on streets.


Go and read about Bengal Famine and Jainlianwallh Bagh Massacre. Literally every PM of yours apologizes for the act to this day.


Railway was built to help you get stuff from inside India to ports so you can take it back to your own country.

Moreover Indians were not allowed to travel on same carriages as Brits in India. And Brits used to put boards saying Indians and Dogs not allowed. Was this the development you were saying in your comment?
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 20:15

Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure …Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure to come to terms with the loss of empire is why the place is in such trouble now. An interesting demographic on here though, skint tories.



Wait until you find out about the Spanish Empire!
Nick6628/11/2019 13:55

Wait until you find out about the Spanish Empire!


He never will......
Techie_Zootie28/11/2019 13:43

Bullocks. You got this out of your ass?Indians were way more educated. …Bullocks. You got this out of your ass?Indians were way more educated. India used to contribute 25 percent to world GDP before British came in and took all that away and destroyed everything. Caused famine and droughts. Killed people on streets.Go and read about Bengal Famine and Jainlianwallh Bagh Massacre. Literally every PM of yours apologizes for the act to this day.Railway was built to help you get stuff from inside India to ports so you can take it back to your own country.Moreover Indians were not allowed to travel on same carriages as Brits in India. And Brits used to put boards saying Indians and Dogs not allowed. Was this the development you were saying in your comment?


Literacy in India was 3% when the British arrived, 14% in 1921. Indian education was only open to higher caste males, a very small percent of the population. I've never denied the horrors, and don't see your point, except for your want to rant.
RuudBullit28/11/2019 14:02

Literacy in India was 3% when the British arrived, 14% in 1921. Indian …Literacy in India was 3% when the British arrived, 14% in 1921. Indian education was only open to higher caste males, a very small percent of the population. I've never denied the horrors, and don't see your point, except for your want to rant.


First there was no way to calculate literacy in 1857. So I don't know how you came up with number. Literally no country used to have any method to calculate literacy and if anything GB might have been similarly illetrate

Will just post these two articles.

theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/india-britain-empire-railways-myths-gifts


Britain even took away art and culture from.the Indians.Thomas Macaulay transferred state funding from the Orientalist study of Sanskrit and Arabic to English-medium education in modern subjects. ‘Macaulay’s Children’ is a term still used by nationalists to brand their anglicised compatriots as imperialist lackeys

openthemagazine.com/essay/did-britain-educate-india/


Now on to the talk in Oxford Union

Edited by: "Techie_Zootie" 28th Nov 2019
Techie_Zootie28/11/2019 14:19

First there was no way to calculate literacy in 1857. So I don't know how …First there was no way to calculate literacy in 1857. So I don't know how you came up with number. Literally no country used to have any method to calculate literacy and if anything GB might have been similarly illetrateWill just post these two articles.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/india-britain-empire-railways-myths-giftsBritain even took away art and culture from.the Indians.Thomas Macaulay transferred state funding from the Orientalist study of Sanskrit and Arabic to English-medium education in modern subjects. ‘Macaulay’s Children’ is a term still used by nationalists to brand their anglicised compatriots as imperialist lackeysopenthemagazine.com/essay/did-britain-educate-india/Now on to the talk in Oxford Union[Video]


Literacy in India was measured in 1881 as being 8%, and in 1921 as 14%. In England at that time, literacy was at around 75%. The British established many colleges and introduced the university system to india. Yes, they taught in English, but a lot of official things were in Persian following a thousand years or so of Muslim invasion. James Princep deciphered the most ancient script of India. Many British in India were captivated by the culture and history, and tried to do right. But of course, you can ignore these facts, look at only the bad, and judge it by today's standards, which is completely out of context. Quoting left wing institutions like The Guardian and The Oxford Union don't support you in my opinion.
Edited by: "RuudBullit" 28th Nov 2019
RuudBullit28/11/2019 15:02

Literacy in India was measured in 1881 as being 8%, and in 1921 as 14%. In …Literacy in India was measured in 1881 as being 8%, and in 1921 as 14%. In England at that time, literacy was at around 75%. The British established many colleges and introduced the university system to india. Yes, they taught in English, but a lot of official things were in Persian following a thousand years or so of Muslim invasion. James Princep deciphered the most ancient script of India. Many British in India were captivated by the culture and history, and tried to do right. But of course, you can ignore these facts, look at only the bad, and judge it by today's standards, which is completely out of context. Quoting left wing institutions like The Guardian and The Oxford Union don't support you in my opinion.


Similarly I don't support your half baked facts. Just like school and University is not directly relate to literacy. India had an alternate version of imparting education. And it was one of the top exporters of various products and one of the top economies in the world before British came.


India was contributing 25 percent to the global GDP before British and then British destroyed it and left it with 0.4 percent. Shouldn't literacy help to increase it even more?


India gave women voting rights from the get go. Didn't need 100 years of suffrage.
PeteRobinson27/11/2019 20:15

Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure …Listen to yourselves justify a cruel and oppressive regime. This failure to come to terms with the loss of empire is why the place is in such trouble now. An interesting demographic on here though, skint tories.


"Plays the smallest violin known to man"
Techie_Zootie28/11/2019 15:14

Similarly I don't support your half baked facts. Just like school and …Similarly I don't support your half baked facts. Just like school and University is not directly relate to literacy. India had an alternate version of imparting education. And it was one of the top exporters of various products and one of the top economies in the world before British came.India was contributing 25 percent to the global GDP before British and then British destroyed it and left it with 0.4 percent. Shouldn't literacy help to increase it even more? India gave women voting rights from the get go. Didn't need 100 years of suffrage.


They also used to make the wives of dead husband's sacrifice themselves on the funeral pyre. What about female infanticide and forced marriage and impregnation of young girls? Conveniently ignored? Both the Hindu and Muslim religions back then were oppressive to women. Or do you think that is a half baked fact?
Edited by: "RuudBullit" 28th Nov 2019
Techie_Zootie28/11/2019 13:43

Bullocks. You got this out of your ass?Indians were way more educated. …Bullocks. You got this out of your ass?Indians were way more educated. India used to contribute 25 percent to world GDP before British came in and took all that away and destroyed everything. Caused famine and droughts. Killed people on streets.Go and read about Bengal Famine and Jainlianwallh Bagh Massacre. Literally every PM of yours apologizes for the act to this day.Railway was built to help you get stuff from inside India to ports so you can take it back to your own country.Moreover Indians were not allowed to travel on same carriages as Brits in India. And Brits used to put boards saying Indians and Dogs not allowed. Was this the development you were saying in your comment?


This is historically inaccurate. The Indian economy wasn't taken away or destroyed. The EIC was a hyper-capitalist enterprise who also collected taxes. Why would they be interested in "destroying" the economy. The Indian percentage of GDP fell because of European and American economic expansion, the rise of central Asian empires of religion, various invasions of Bengal and the decline of an agrarian and craft-led economy.

The economic expansion of Europe was not a conspiracy, just in the same way that today's rise of China and India is not a conspiracy. Simply a re-balancing in respect to industrial development.
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