Metabo – 10.8 Volts Combo 3.2 10.8 V BS + ASE + SSD. £160.39 at Amazon.
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Metabo – 10.8 Volts Combo 3.2 10.8 V BS + ASE + SSD. £160.39 at Amazon.

£160.39Amazon Deals
31
Found 23rd Feb
Drill, impact and reciprocating saw on 10.8v.
2x 2Ah batteries. Charger. Carry bag.
Possibly might come with a euro plug.
Lowest according to ccc. uk.camelcamelcamel.com/Met…rch
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31 Comments
never heard of Metabo ??? but looks a decent price/ find
Metabo is VERY good reliable and robust
Nice find, looks like a decent kit for the price. Metabo are good solid tools.
Price gone up.
I've had lots of metabo stuff for years, all still works fine, even left a drill outside in the rain for a month.
I'm seeing £292.27 as the price?
10.8v - I'm skeptical. Ok for hanging a picture on plasterboard maybe.
Besford42 m ago

10.8v - I'm skeptical. Ok for hanging a picture on plasterboard maybe.


Clearly you've never used one.
hobofighter29 m ago

Clearly you've never used one.


Correct, hence 'skeptical'. However, if I was investing in a new system today I'd go with something 18v which I could buy in multiple outlets in the UK. Ryobi is the obvious one but WORX would be an excellent start point too: cheaper than Ryobi, enormous range of kit, good products (including a 'professional' range) and the batteries are interchangeable with a number of other brands at budget prices.
Besford8 m ago

Correct, hence 'skeptical'. However, if I was investing in a new system …Correct, hence 'skeptical'. However, if I was investing in a new system today I'd go with something 18v which I could buy in multiple outlets in the UK. Ryobi is the obvious one but WORX would be an excellent start point too: cheaper than Ryobi, enormous range of kit, good products (including a 'professional' range) and the batteries are interchangeable with a number of other brands at budget prices.


I think you have much different needs than who this set is aimed at!

Great deal but showing 290+ now.
Edited by: "IllDigATunnel" 23rd Feb
IllDigATunnel3 m ago

I think you have much different needs than who this set is aimed at!Great …I think you have much different needs than who this set is aimed at!Great deal but showing 290+ now.


You're probably right.
Showing as £292.27 for me now, time to expire ?
Metabo definitely make some good kit but this set is a bit of an oddity. As an electrical engineer and serious DIY-er I'd make the observation that the "oomph" of this particular set is likely to be quite poor (as others have suggested). The Watt-hour rating (battery voltage x battery Ah capacity) is only 21.6 Wh, which is VERY low these days. At a similar price level there are often some good quality sets around with 18V and 3Ah batteries, which gives you a 54Wh capacity (i.e. 2.5x the potential performance of this set). Metabo's main offerings are 18V, often with 5Ah batteries, so 90Wh. On the face of it this set looks a bit like buying a BMW 5 series with a 1000cc engine? I'm not dissing this deal at all, just pointing out that it's a bit of an oddity, and that many people might be better off with some more mainstream offerings with some real grunt - just as Besford suggested. (ps Not voted. Would have voted hot on the original price, as seems cheap for this package - but have reservations about who exactly this works for?)
Edited by: "qyestionmark" 23rd Feb
Original Poster
qyestionmark40 m ago

Metabo definitely make some good kit but this set is a bit of an oddity. …Metabo definitely make some good kit but this set is a bit of an oddity. As an electrical engineer and serious DIY-er I'd make the observation that the "oomph" of this particular set is likely to be quite poor (as others have suggested). The Watt-hour rating (battery voltage x battery Ah capacity) is only 21.6 Wh, which is VERY low these days. At a similar price level there are often some good quality sets around with 18V and 3Ah batteries, which gives you a 54Wh capacity (i.e. 2.5x the potential performance of this set). Metabo's main offerings are 18V, often with 5Ah batteries, so 90Wh. On the face of it this set looks a bit like buying a BMW 5 series with a 1000cc engine? I'm not dissing this deal at all, just pointing out that it's a bit of an oddity, and that many people might be better off with some more mainstream offerings with some real grunt - just as Besford suggested. (ps Not voted. Would have voted hot on the original price, as seems cheap for this package - but have reservations about who exactly this works for?)


I would say it's more a set for tight spaces and lighter on the arm/wrist. Rather than lobbing a 18v 3/5Ah about all the time, especially when you don't need all that power. If you have a set of 10-12v and 18v, you would be surprised how much you reach for the 10-12v.
qyestionmark3 h, 33 m ago

Metabo definitely make some good kit but this set is a bit of an oddity. …Metabo definitely make some good kit but this set is a bit of an oddity. As an electrical engineer and serious DIY-er I'd make the observation that the "oomph" of this particular set is likely to be quite poor (as others have suggested). The Watt-hour rating (battery voltage x battery Ah capacity) is only 21.6 Wh, which is VERY low these days. At a similar price level there are often some good quality sets around with 18V and 3Ah batteries, which gives you a 54Wh capacity (i.e. 2.5x the potential performance of this set). Metabo's main offerings are 18V, often with 5Ah batteries, so 90Wh. On the face of it this set looks a bit like buying a BMW 5 series with a 1000cc engine? I'm not dissing this deal at all, just pointing out that it's a bit of an oddity, and that many people might be better off with some more mainstream offerings with some real grunt - just as Besford suggested. (ps Not voted. Would have voted hot on the original price, as seems cheap for this package - but have reservations about who exactly this works for?)


You'd be surprised what modern 10.8V tools are capable of- I've got a circular saw that rips through kitchen worktops no problem, and with the benefit of being less cumbersome than an 18V or corded model.

Also while your maths is sound, the Ah/Wh rating isn't indicative of the "oomph" of the tool; a 10.8V drill running at 2A produces more power than an 18V running at 1A, irrespective of the battery capacity. The Ah rating doesn't give you any indication of the actual current draw of the tool, so can't be used as a measure of the tool's actual power output, only the maximum possible of the battery.
If I take the 2ah battery out of my drill and put the 4ah in, it doesn't get anymore powerful. You're trying to relate battery capacity to power output of a tool, which doesn't work.
There are high-end 10.8V drills on the market that produce as much or more torque as low-end 18V drills.
Edited by: "ThanksForThat" 23rd Feb
Original Poster
33318611-prdIZ.jpg18v with the same torque.
ThanksForThat5 h, 58 m ago

You'd be surprised what modern 10.8V tools are capable of- I've got a …You'd be surprised what modern 10.8V tools are capable of- I've got a circular saw that rips through kitchen worktops no problem, and with the benefit of being less cumbersome than an 18V or corded model.Also while your maths is sound, the Ah/Wh rating isn't indicative of the "oomph" of the tool; a 10.8V drill running at 2A produces more power than an 18V running at 1A, irrespective of the battery capacity. The Ah rating doesn't give you any indication of the actual current draw of the tool, so can't be used as a measure of the tool's actual power output, only the maximum possible of the battery.If I take the 2ah battery out of my drill and put the 4ah in, it doesn't get anymore powerful. You're trying to relate battery capacity to power output of a tool, which doesn't work. There are high-end 10.8V drills on the market that produce as much or more torque as low-end 18V drills.


Yes except torque is a measure of force, not a measure of power. If you stick the right gearbox on a 1.5V motor you could get a higher torque than any of the examples you've given. It just won't do so at any decent rpm. The maximum available power available in a cordless power tool is fundamentally defined by the capacity of the battery pack. You might get 250W+ (peak) out of a 50Wh pack. You won't get much more that 100W (peak) out of a 21Wh pack. That's just fundamental. Yes, whether the motor, electronics, etc are matched to that is another matter, and whether you're prepared to accept the power compromise to get the weight and size savings yet another. Horses for courses. Just don't expect the drill in this pack to be much use for drilling anything hard.
Yes but you're mixing terms. You're using the maximum potential power of a battery pack as a gauge of a tool's actual power, which in the real world it isn't. I can put a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 9ah battery in my 18v drill and it will perform exactly the same. Furthermore I can put the same batteries on my other drill and it won't perform as well because it's a lesser-specced tool. I'm not disagreeing with electrical fundamentals, I'm disagreeing with your statement that the battery's Ah rating has a direct bearing on a tool's power or performance, which it doesn't. It's the difference between potential and actual.
Edited by: "ThanksForThat" 24th Feb
Original Poster
Stick a 20Ah battery in that bosch/metabo there^^^^ still going to get 33Nm out of it. Last a while mind you.
Batteries basically a fuel tank in simplistic terms, there are apparently some tools that know the difference between say a 2Ah and 4Ah battery. And will kick up/down from max dependent on which batteries are used.
That Gsr 1800 (33Nm) isnt purporting to be a dhp481 (115Nm) just because it's an 18v + xAh battery.
Cordless are rated in Nm.
Corded in watts.
Of course it's horses for courses.
qyestionmark10 h, 18 m ago

Yes except torque is a measure of force, not a measure of power. If you …Yes except torque is a measure of force, not a measure of power. If you stick the right gearbox on a 1.5V motor you could get a higher torque than any of the examples you've given. It just won't do so at any decent rpm. The maximum available power available in a cordless power tool is fundamentally defined by the capacity of the battery pack. You might get 250W+ (peak) out of a 50Wh pack. You won't get much more that 100W (peak) out of a 21Wh pack. That's just fundamental. Yes, whether the motor, electronics, etc are matched to that is another matter, and whether you're prepared to accept the power compromise to get the weight and size savings yet another. Horses for courses. Just don't expect the drill in this pack to be much use for drilling anything hard.


Torque is a measure of force, yes, but along with RPM it's the relevant measurement for gauging a drill's performance. Even if we did know the amperage of the drills and could calculate their wattage, again it's not indicative of their performance capabilities because it gives no indication to their efficiency. You talk of "power" as in wattage as though that's the defining factor of the tool's capability, but again in real terms it doesn't necessarily translate to performance. You can take three different 18v drills with the same capacity battery and their real-term performance (not power consumption) will vary wildly.
A good analogy is a speaker and amplifier; a 30W guitar amplifier will go far louder than a 30W Hi-Fi because a guitar amplifier reproduces less frequency range, therefore is more efficient. Or the 5W LED lightbulb that will put out as much light as a 50W incandescent.

So, in summary, you can't use power output/consumption as a gauge of performance, and you can't calculate power output/consumption based on a battery's capacity without knowing the current draw of the tool.
Edited by: "ThanksForThat" 24th Feb
OK let's be clear here. No and No! I am not mixing terms and yes a bigger battery pack does affect the power output. LOL!

First, torque is NOT a measure of power, it is a measure of force. You can design something to produce a lot of force yet it doesn't need to be very powerful. If a big bloke sits on you and you can't move then you are fighting a lot of force, but if he just sits there he isn't actually using ANY power to produce that force. The maximum force produced by a DC motor is typically at (or close to) zero RPM. Big torque is great if you are trying to loosen a Scammel wheel nut, but alone it means nothing for the ability to drill. You simply don't actually need a lot of power to produce a lot of torque (if you do it slowly).

I am simply talking about power (and have done so throughout). This is a measure of torque whilst moving (i.e. at an RPM). It is physically impossible for a 10.4V tool with a 2Ah battery to produce a lot of power. Period. (I'm guessing the peak power output is well under 100W).

This drill is rated for 33Nm torque. Fair enough, that's reasonable for screws. Personally I'd go for something in the 40-50Nm range but you can do good work with 33Nm so I'm not criticising it. But that one figure is only telling part of the story. I'm talking about power, which is the ability to deliver a force at speed.

Let's assume this drill/driver is also rated for a maximum speed of 1500 RPM. (I can't be bothered to try and find it but it's likely somewhere around there). What is the torque at that speed? I'll wager it's about zero as it's typically a "no load" rating. It's definitely not going to be 33Nm! FYI to deliver 33Nm at 1500RPM would require just over 5kW of power! As the speed goes up the torque goes down. If you draw a graph of the torque versus speed you get a power curve, and somewhere on that graph will be a peak power figure - the maximum amount of work the tool can do per unit time. If you want to know how good a power tool is then find that graph as it's the only thing that matters. (Or find a peak power rating for the tool, which is the best point on that graph). Manufacturers are very good at stating ONE torque figure (which is typically at zero RPM) and ONE RPM (which is typically at zero torque), but they are always very shy about sharing the one thing that matters - a real measure of the tool's ability to deliver power (i.e. torque at a particular working speed). Broadly, in a hand held power tool we are typically talking about peak capabilities in the 50W to 250W region. I'm betting this tool is at the lower end of that range. Again, not a criticism, just an observation. The biggest constraint on peak power output is usually the battery pack as it costs a lot more to add watts to the pack than it does to the motor.

OK, so let's come down to the issue of battery pack. Sure changing the battery pack doesn't change the physical makeup of the drill - i.e. it doesn't change the motor, gearbox or electronics. (Unless as you say the electronics senses a bigger pack and removes any limit it has imposed on power - which is atypical). However, what you haven't considered is the impedance of the battery pack. As you increase the current you take from a battery it's terminal voltage drops. As you draw a lot of current it drops quite a lot. If we had a 2Ah pack (which we would call "C", the capacity), and we run it under heavy loading at 5C (i.e. 10A) then even if it had a source impedance of only 0.5 Ohm it would lose 5V of terminal voltage. If we start with a terminal voltage of only 10V then the actual power we can get from the pack drops tremendously as the voltage falls. That limits the power the motor can produce. (It is also a reason why higher terminal voltage tools are usually a lot more powerful than low ones. A few volts lost from 18V is a lot less significan than from 10.8V).

If we swap to a battery pack with twice the capacity then its impedance will be lower. How much lower will depend on its construction. If we simply double-up the cells by wiring in parallel then the impedance will obviously halve, but even just using higher capacity cells has the same sort of effect (for exactly the same reason, as in the cell construction you are just adding more domains in parallel). A 4Ah pack producing 10A is only running at 2.5C and will do so with a much lower terminal voltage drop, so more power output. The net result could be a peak output more than 20% different. If you find a fully specified cordless power tool which comes with different battery packs then you'll actually see several power curves according to which pack it's actually used with! (Or on tools with only one curve then check the small print for which pack was measured - it'll be the biggest!) But again, this is a POWER characteristic. The maximum torque won't change and the maximum RPM won't. However, the moment you need a lot of power - e.g. masonry drilling - then you will.

The whole trade-off thing about terminal voltage, cell capacity and power is a big deal. A higher terminal voltage and a higher C rating both give you wins in peak power output, though at the expense of weight and size. Again, I'm not dissing this deal as this seems like a well made set at a good price. It's just that until someone shows me a power curve or a peak power rating which proves otherwise, I'm betting this set lacks grunt.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with the maths, just the application of them- you're taking the on-paper fundamentals and trying to apply them broadly across a spectrum without factoring in other important elements. If half the power is lost in heat from a badly designed motor, that extra power is useless. A brushless drill of identical voltage, current draw and battery capacity can offer increased performance over a brushed model because it is more efficient.
Yes it's physically impossible for a 10.8v 2ah battery pack to supply a lot of power, but you're presuming that an 18v tool with a 3ah pack is USING that extra power capability, and doing so efficiently. Potential power supply and actual power consumption are not one and the same thing, neither do they directly translate to performance. If that was the case then every comparable item that plugged into the mains would have identical power consumption, and every 2kW washing machine would wash your clothes just as well. You might remember only a few years ago that the EU banned vacuum cleaners over a certain wattage, and it was proven in the aftermath that more power didn't necessarily equal better performance- something which is now very evident since they are now rated on performance and not power consumption.

Just going back to drills, my 10.8v SDS will drill a hole in concrete much quicker (and with less effort on the user's part) than my 18v combi, despite running at less than half the RPM, having a fifth of the BPM, and less power consumption. Rotary hammers are better for that particular job than hammer drills, but on paper, and by your argument, the 18v should be better because it has a higher power consumption. That's all I'm trying to say- more power, and certainly more potential power does not automatically equal better performance.

I haven't disputed that a higher capacity battery can deliver more power- that much is obvious. What I am saying, and what is absolutely true, is that you cannot use power consumption alone as a measure of a tools performance (and you cannot accurately calculate a devices power consumption without knowing its current draw), which is what your original post suggested. That is all.
Edited by: "ThanksForThat" 24th Feb
What is the battery pack capacity on your 10.8V SDS?
qyestionmark20 m ago

What is the battery pack capacity on your 10.8V SDS?


I've got a 2ah and a 4ah
I think we could be arguing all day! You are saying that just because there is a lot of power in the battery pack doesn't necessarily mean a lot of real world power, because of efficiencies. I completely, completely agree. However, you then go on to talk about differences between SDS and regular chucked drills, or brushless technologies, which is hardly comparing like with like!

What I am saying is that unless you have a lot of power in the battery pack then a general purpose drill will be constrained by the pack on what it can do in the real world. The economics of hand held drill design are such that the performance is mainly battery pack constrained. Regardless of whether the motor on this Metabo is the most efficient in the world the battery pack here is simply a hard constraint to overcome.

Comparing like with like, most of the inefficiency in a motorised product are so called I2R losses (I squared R). Those losses rise geometrically with the current used. By having a higher supply voltage you can lower the current, which has a big impact on efficiency. Sure there may be differences between motor and controller efficiencies, but simply changing from 10.4V to 18V immediately gives you a 3x paper advantage simply on I2R, which is hard to lose in other ways.

In the absence of any hard data (peak power output) or subjective data comparing like with like we may have to leave it here. I would note however that in the same way that the top speed in a car is often a great rule of thumb for indicating real world peak engine power, a good rule of thumb for a drill power is bit capacity. This Metabo is spec'd for 10mm in steel and 18mm in wood. The first 18V I looked at in this price range (Stanley Fatmax, which many people rate as a good DIY drill) was rated 13mm in steel and 38mm for wood. The power you need to turn a bigger bit goes up with the square of the diameter, so that suggests that 18V has somewhere between 70% and 350% more real world power than this Metabo. In practice I'd say that 350% figure is optimistic (at least with the supplied battery pack) but I'd wager that on any job that needs some grunt it'll be broadly about 2x the real world performance.

argos.co.uk/pro…762
Edited by: "qyestionmark" 24th Feb
I'm not disputing any of that at all, merely your suggestion that the Ah of a battery pack was an indication of a tools power, and that power was an indication of performance. I keep saying this, you keep coming back with figures which while accurate, do not make the original statement untrue.

We can put this to bed right now:

1/ Do all 18V drills have the exact same current draw, thereby the exact same power output/consumption?
2/ Do all 18V drills with a given capacity battery- say 3Ah for sake of argument- have the exact same performance characteristics?
3/ Does changing the battery pack of a drill for one of higher capacity increase real-world performance in all cases?

Unless the answer to all three is yes- which it isn't- then the generalisation that increased battery capacity equals increased power and increased power equals increased performance is proved false, which is the only point I was really trying to make.

Guild 18V, max drilling in wood 20mm:

argos.co.uk/pro…JUN

Milwaukee 10.8V, max drilling in wood 35mm:

milwaukeetool.eu/m12…eu/
Edited by: "ThanksForThat" 24th Feb
Original Poster
General rule of thumb cordless.
0-12v light duty
12-18v medium to heavy duty
18v+ Heavy duty
Usually 3 levels of duty within an 18v+ range.
Bosch example:
Lite. Dynamic. Robust.
Nm used a good indicator to how it will perform given the other variables above.
Not including other variables like brushed/brushless, gearbox/gears, hammer, runtime, weight, chuck size, feel in the hand.........
What do you require? Applications? Go from there.
Not sure what you need, ask someone, google, youtube will have answers.
ThanksForThat3 h, 4 m ago

I'm not disputing any of that at all, merely your suggestion that the Ah …I'm not disputing any of that at all, merely your suggestion that the Ah of a battery pack was an indication of a tools power, and that power was an indication of performance. I keep saying this, you keep coming back with figures which while accurate, do not make the original statement untrue.We can put this to bed right now:1/ Do all 18V drills have the exact same current draw, thereby the exact same power output/consumption?2/ Do all 18V drills with a given capacity battery- say 3Ah for sake of argument- have the exact same performance characteristics?3/ Does changing the battery pack of a drill for one of higher capacity increase real-world performance in all cases?Unless the answer to all three is yes- which it isn't- then the generalisation that increased battery capacity equals increased power and increased power equals increased performance is proved false, which is the only point I was really trying to make.Guild 18V, max drilling in wood 20mm:http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4618618?utm_campaign=11553376&cmpid=COJUN&cjsurferid=139104298106597343:Vq5wfR7UBw5z&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=Pepper+Deals+LTD&utm_source=CJ&catalogId=10001&DM_PersistentCookieCreated=true&storeId=10151&_$ja=tsid:11674|prd:1546795&utm_term=1453124&referredURL=http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4618618&referrer=COJUNMilwaukee 10.8V, max drilling in wood 35mm:https://www.milwaukeetool.eu/m12-fuel-sub-compact-2-speed-percussion-drill/m12-fpd-eu/

I think you actually just proved exactly what I was saying!

That Guild item (goodness knows who Guild are?!?) has a 23Wh pack (18V x 1.3Ah). That's slightly more than this Metabo (at 21.6Wh) and it seems to be slightly more powerful than it - i.e. 20mm in wood, vs 18mm for the Metabo.

That Milwaukee comes with 12V 6Ah (i.e. 72Wh) packs* and can drill 35mm in wood. 72 is about 3.3 x 21.6 (i.e. the battery pack on the Milwaukee is about 3.3 x as big as the Metabo) and it is drilling power is (35mm / 18mm) ^ 2 = 3.8 times as much.

* Note that the drill bit specs, torque and RPM figures are max figures and are almost certainly tested under the best possible circumstances for the model (i.e. with the biggest battery in the range).

In general if you measured the actual power out of all the portable drills you could get your hands on and plotted those against the battery pack capacity (the Wh) of that configuration you would get a very strong correlation between the two - i.e. a straight line trend. There would definitely be some variability (the efficiency differences that we agree on) but the trend would be undeniable. The higher voltage helps, but it is the actual pack capacity (i.e. product of voltage and Ah capacity) which is what matters most.
Edited by: "qyestionmark" 24th Feb
Original Poster
The Milwaukee brushless motor and non chocolate gearbox give it the ability to drill up to 35mm. Stick 6Ah in the guild and it will still only do 20mm.
I think you'll talk yourself into whatever you like in this argument.

The Guild was posted up to show not all 18v are equal, and if you put a 3ah battery in it it wouldn't have some magical gain in power. The Milwaukee was posted to enforce the first point I made - that voltage is only half the story, the other half being amperage which we're not privvy to. I notice you chose to ignore the fact that the specs on the Milwaukee are identical for the 4ah battery, because it doesn't suit whatever point it is you're trying to make.
The 12v battery isn't 12v, it's 10.8v- you can't make a 12v battery with 3.6v cells- it's marketing BS. So that's 10.8v x 4ah not 12v x 6ah. So that screws up your calculation, and the suggestion that it's based on the higher capacity of the two batteries. *

But whatever, suit yourself, I'm bored with this. Nothing I've said isn't true, no matter how much you try to side-step it.

*EDIT: reading the product manual, the specs are the same with the 3ah battery and don't drop until the 2ah battery is used. The 6ah isn't referenced in the manual, and likely wasn't available when the drill came out (the 6ah battery is a recent addition to the range). So, any calculations should be based on 10.8v x 3ah.
Edited by: "ThanksForThat" 24th Feb
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