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    4K HDR Buying: Beware

    I wasnt really aware of any of this so I thought id give a heads up to anyone looking at buying a new 4K TV especially in the event of new XBOX One S, Playstation 4 (HDR Update) & Pro.

    If I hadn't found out any of this I would be pretty annoyed to find out my TV did not support HDR gaming, so wanted to pass it on.

    So you would think you could buy a TV that simply states its 4K with HDR and you woudl be set, but it seems its a goddam minefield of new tech with many companies competing for the HDR Standard.

    So lets start with what HDR is,

    Basically the TV can reproduced the contrasts of light and dark much more clearly this in turn displays a wider and richer range of colours, much brighter whites, and deeper, darker blacks,

    Now for your TV to display this it needs a 10-bit panel, Blu ray use 8 bit which is about 16 Million colours, so the additional colours that 10 bit provides greatly reduces the gradation between colours, giving a massive more dynamic look.

    But it just gets so much more complicated, the TV needs to produce 'P3' range of colours! and I'm not even going to try and understand that, as well as be able to have a certain level of 'nit' brightness above the standard brightnesses or above PEAK brightness.

    The standard states;

    More than 1,000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05nits black level.

    Confused yet? Because it gets worse..

    Your TV needs to comply with HDMI 2.0a standard and there is no HDR standard set yet so we have a choice currently

    of

    LG HLG

    Dolby Vision

    HDR-10

    HDR

    Plus whatever standard any company decides it wants too, so Samsung could decide to make a proprietary HDR as could Sony etc..

    [edit] MSK points out Sony wont seem to release any info on what's actually what with their TV's

    Now just to make things worse, some TV's that have 8 bit panels are HDR Ready, just the set has to be programmed to read the meta data in HDR content! And I am sure there is even more to it than that that I haven't included, so with that I am sticking to 1080p until this idiocy is sorted out.

    But if you still want 4K and HDR I suggest you do your homework first.

    39 Comments

    Would I at any stage notice any difference watching Hot Chocolate on Youtub(e) ?
    youtube.com/wat…Lw8

    So if, because I'm mature in age and my eyesight isn't up to 20/20 standard, I can still save thousands by sticking with my normal +4 year old 36" HD TV (which I only use occasionally to watch action movies and the like with good surround sound) and my Samsung 24" HD TV which is my main PC monitor and not notice any difference?

    If I remember correctly there was an article (mentioned on HUKD) that stated something along the lines that to benefit from anything above HD you would need a +70" TV or sit 3ft away (or something similar along those lines).

    Thanks for the thread and for saving me potentially thousands of £ - tis what HUKD is about << besides the banter and flirting and support for the elderly (quick menion for Deeky there) and then..................................MISC

    Original Poster

    thewongwing101

    Would I at any stage notice any difference watching Hot Chocolate on … Would I at any stage notice any difference watching Hot Chocolate on Youtub(e) ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GkwIRbLw8



    Probably not, but i suspect if your into Hot Chocolate that your not too bothered about 4K?

    haritori

    Probably not, but i suspect if your into Hot Chocolate that your not too … Probably not, but i suspect if your into Hot Chocolate that your not too bothered about 4K?


    Tru dat
    youtube.com/wat…-W8

    Original Poster

    thewongwing101

    Tru dathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFYOHrwi-W8



    Thing is though I kinda like that song, and now I am starting to feel old, my back hurts so im gogin to bed night all.
    Edited by: "haritori" 12th Sep 2016

    thewongwing101

    Would I at any stage notice any difference watching Hot Chocolate on … Would I at any stage notice any difference watching Hot Chocolate on Youtub(e) ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GkwIRbLw8



    Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours of playing/rewinding etc and using players that have never had their heads cleaned and also, lets not forget, the player in the car in hot summer - a song like that would sound much better

    joking

    Original Poster

    philphil61

    Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours … Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours of playing/rewinding etc and using players that have never had their heads cleaned and also, lets not forget, the player in the car in hot summer - a song like that would sound much betterjoking




    Until i bought a new car last year, my Renault still had a tape cassette player in it.

    thewongwing101

    Tru dathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFYOHrwi-W8



    If you mention Hot Chocolate to Deeky he'll be reminiscing about the days he used to cycle home on his penny farthing and walking through the door to grab his mug of Ovaltine

    Good write up. You don't want to get caught short when the true 4k Scorpio comes out, with my little deceive work the cheapest true acceptable option is the Samsung ks8000 and that's £1200 for the 49". I'm holding out.
    Edited by: "craigefoster" 12th Sep 2016

    philphil61

    Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours … Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours of playing/rewinding etc and using players that have never had their heads cleaned and also, lets not forget, the player in the car in hot summer - a song like that would sound much betterjoking


    the heavy heavy monster sound ?
    youtube.com/wat…NhQ

    thewongwing101

    the heavy heavy monster sound ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-uyWAe0NhQ


    Knew the track before hitting the clicky

    Lip up fatty

    Black & white loafers (or whatever they were called), tight black trousers about 2" about the shoe and the black & white chequered belts or braces << been there, done that
    Edited by: "philphil61" 12th Sep 2016

    philphil61

    Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours … Remember the good ol days of tape (cassettes) where after hours and hours of playing/rewinding etc and using players that have never had their heads cleaned and also, lets not forget, the player in the car in hot summer - a song like that would sound much betterjoking



    haritori

    Until i bought a new car last year, my Renault still had a tape cassette … Until i bought a new car last year, my Renault still had a tape cassette player in it.


    Cassettes
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Stomp.gif
    and VHS

    philphil61

    Knew the track before hitting the clickyLip up fatty :pBlack & white … Knew the track before hitting the clickyLip up fatty :pBlack & white loafers (or whatever they were called), tight black trousers about 2" about the shoe and the black & white chequered belts or braces << been there, done that


    But the sound doesn't deafen his smile
    youtube.com/wat…YMA

    thewongwing101

    But the sound doesn't deafen his … But the sound doesn't deafen his smilehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLLL1KxpYMA


    Don't forget The Specials

    Original Poster

    thewongwing101

    Cassettesand VHS



    No where sold both more than Woolworths pick up Home Alone and some pick and mix!

    philphil61

    Don't forget The Specials


    No Bad manners that
    youtube.com/wat…zj8

    haritori

    No where sold both more than Woolworths pick up Home Alone and some … No where sold both more than Woolworths pick up Home Alone and some pick and mix!



    haritori

    No where sold both more than Woolworths pick up Home Alone and some … No where sold both more than Woolworths pick up Home Alone and some pick and mix!


    Oh wollies

    I think it's pretty much HDR-10 for lower end UHDs and Dolby Vision for higher end products due to the cost of the chip, probably all $10 worth. Pretty sure Dolby Vision is the way to go as it's a cinema standard so it's not like the films won't support it but dolby vision like the audio standards of DTS vs DD5.1 it's nice to have but you're not going to miss it too much though.

    kester76

    I think it's pretty much HDR-10 for lower end UHDs and Dolby Vision for … I think it's pretty much HDR-10 for lower end UHDs and Dolby Vision for higher end products due to the cost of the chip, probably all $10 worth. Pretty sure Dolby Vision is the way to go as it's a cinema standard so it's not like the films won't support it but dolby vision like the audio standards of DTS vs DD5.1 it's nice to have but you're not going to miss it too much though.



    Nope, there are cheaper LG sets which are 8bit + dithering not true 10bit which are Dolby Vision certified. If all the people on the avforums are to be believed.

    Such as this beaut:

    http://www.johnlewis.com/lg-49uh770-led-hdr-super-4k-ultra-hd-smart-tv-49-with-freeview-hd-freesat-hd-harman-kardon-sound-bright-metal-design/p2627717

    Ultra HD Premium is a slightly better yardstick, but that leaves with the choice of high end Samsung, OLED or nothing. Pretty much.

    Good luck getting all the stats you need to make an informed decision OP. It's all the fun. I've been whinging about it for months for a reason.

    Hurry up and become affordable!! I need to hurry up and upgrade my 720p samsung tv but I want to get a HDR 10 tv with great pucture quality and specs, £1000 + for a TV is stupidly expensive though, I hope some amazing deals start popping up around black friday - xmas time!

    WARNING the "Samsung SUHD KS7000" has a flaw in the design where the plastic border is not glued on properly to the sides/edges/back of the panel! I have seen people moaning about this on the "AV Forums" and "Rtings" video reviews for that model on youtube. Not sure if this is also the case with the more expensive KS7500, KS8000 and KS9000 Models too, but considering the cheaper KS7000 is still being sold for over £1000 and it isn't even put together properly and is being labelled as "UHD Premium" is a farce! I had this TV in my wishlist and was just waiting for a reasonable price drop... but after finding out that the majority of the units being sent out to people are defected, I have decided to stay well clear of That line of Samsung Tele's now,

    How is their 10 years "Screen Burn Warranty" going to help anybody when they aren't making sure they've even designed the thing properly. It's shocking that Samsung aren't recalling them all just like them defected Galaxy Note 7 Phablets that have all been overheating.

    prynolfc

    WARNING the "Samsung SUHD KS7000" has a flaw in the design where the … WARNING the "Samsung SUHD KS7000" has a flaw in the design where the plastic border is not glued on properly to the sides/edges/back of the panel! I have seen people moaning about this on the "AV Forums" and "Rtings" video reviews for that model on youtube. Not sure if this is also the case with the more expensive KS7500, KS8000 and KS9000 Models too, but considering the cheaper KS7000 is still being sold for over £1000 and it isn't even put together properly and is being labelled as "UHD Premium" is a farce! I had this TV in my wishlist and was just waiting for a reasonable price drop... but after finding out that the majority of the units being sent out to people are defected, I have decided to stay well clear of That line of Samsung Tele's now, How is their 10 years "Screen Burn Warranty" going to help anybody when they aren't making sure they've even designed the thing properly. It's shocking that Samsung aren't recalling them all just like them defected Galaxy Note 7 Phablets that have all been overheating.



    That is not good news at all The only cheaper Samsung option than that is curved

    moneysavingkitten

    That is not good news at all The only cheaper Samsung option than … That is not good news at all The only cheaper Samsung option than that is curved



    ​I'm gutted, Always liked Samsung, but there is only so many times a company can cut corners to save money and meet quarterly targets!

    prynolfc

    ​I'm gutted, Always liked Samsung, but there is only so many times a c … ​I'm gutted, Always liked Samsung, but there is only so many times a company can cut corners to save money and meet quarterly targets!



    There's very little other option.

    Someone, somehow, needs to get some proper numbers out of Sony. They're the biggest unknown.

    moneysavingkitten

    There's very little other option. Someone, somehow, needs to get some … There's very little other option. Someone, somehow, needs to get some proper numbers out of Sony. They're the biggest unknown.



    ​I know, thats why I am holding off until the next set of 2017 tv's start coming out next year

    prynolfc

    ​I know, thats why I am holding off until the next set of 2017 tv's start … ​I know, thats why I am holding off until the next set of 2017 tv's start coming out next year



    ​hopefully then, these 2016 tv's will drop down to much more reasonable prices

    I have a Wife that said if i get a large TV she will put me out with the milk bottles

    Original Poster

    raptorcigs

    I have a Wife that said if i get a large TV she will put me out with the … I have a Wife that said if i get a large TV she will put me out with the milk bottles




    I used to have a very expensive 40" Sony Bravia one of the First 1080p sets, it took a fair while of convincing many cups of tea, only for after 6 months my youngest to launch a Lightning McQueen in to it. It was all in slow motion..

    Luckily I was insured, so I then bought a very expensive 51" Samsung Plasma TV, which is the best picture I've ever had on a TV, it was beautiful, I mounted this high on the wall above the fireplace out of McQueen range, or so I thought! Seems as a couple of years went by my sons height became enough to hit with the sky remote

    I now have a smaller TV with an OK picture with intentions of trading my son in when I upgrade it
    Edited by: "haritori" 12th Sep 2016

    raptorcigs

    I have a Wife that said if i get a large TV she will put me out with the … I have a Wife that said if i get a large TV she will put me out with the milk bottles



    at least you will be able to see your new big tv from outside

    moneysavingkitten

    Nope, there are cheaper LG sets which are 8bit + dithering not true 10bit … Nope, there are cheaper LG sets which are 8bit + dithering not true 10bit which are Dolby Vision certified. If all the people on the avforums are to be believed.Such as this beaut:http://www.johnlewis.com/lg-49uh770-led-hdr-super-4k-ultra-hd-smart-tv-49-with-freeview-hd-freesat-hd-harman-kardon-sound-bright-metal-design/p2627717Ultra HD Premium is a slightly better yardstick, but that leaves with the choice of high end Samsung, OLED or nothing. Pretty much.Good luck getting all the stats you need to make an informed decision OP. It's all the fun. I've been whinging about it for months for a reason.


    Sorry I meant after they dump the 8Bit HDR displays which I can see in the next couple of year . I can't see them hanging around once the technology drops in price. I think 10-HDR will become the standard but better models will support Dolby Vision. A bit like all DVD players supporting DD5.1 but the better built ones having DTS support as well.
    To be honest you really need to research into what panel you're buying as some panels will be using 8-bit+FRC to achieve 10Bit performance. oops re-read, you already mentioned the dithering
    Edited by: "kester76" 12th Sep 2016

    To be honest why is everyone going nuts for 10bit 4K sets when the tech is still catching up to watch them. To get this I need to replace my Bluray player, Amp and TV at the same time. Netflix 10bit 4K is going to be interesting as you will need a greater bandwidth for this, unless you're a huge sneaky company like Netflix and downgrade the video bitrate to save on bandwidth.

    Also most of the UK is struggling to get 18-25mbit/s broadband so how is that going to work out.

    craigefoster

    Good write up. You don't want to get caught short when the true 4k … Good write up. You don't want to get caught short when the true 4k Scorpio comes out, with my little deceive work the cheapest true acceptable option is the Samsung ks8000 and that's £1200 for the 49". I'm holding out.



    The LG UH850V and UH950V both use 10 bit panels and have Dolby Vision included too

    kester76

    Sorry I meant after they dump the 8Bit HDR displays which I can see in … Sorry I meant after they dump the 8Bit HDR displays which I can see in the next couple of year . I can't see them hanging around once the technology drops in price. I think 10-HDR will become the standard but better models will support Dolby Vision. A bit like all DVD players supporting DD5.1 but the better built ones having DTS support as well.To be honest you really need to research into what panel you're buying as some panels will be using 8-bit+FRC to achieve 10Bit performance. oops re-read, you already mentioned the dithering



    Do you have any tips for researching panels? It's all well and good trying to research them, but finding out what they truly are is much harder than I expected. Manufacturers won't give a straight answer.

    kester76

    To be honest why is everyone going nuts for 10bit 4K sets when the tech … To be honest why is everyone going nuts for 10bit 4K sets when the tech is still catching up to watch them. To get this I need to replace my Bluray player, Amp and TV at the same time. Netflix 10bit 4K is going to be interesting as you will need a greater bandwidth for this, unless you're a huge sneaky company like Netflix and downgrade the video bitrate to save on bandwidth. Also most of the UK is struggling to get 18-25mbit/s broadband so how is that going to work out.



    Because my TV broke, why would I want to replace it with something that will be obsolete in less than 6 months? Both consoles will be capable to using these features very shortly.

    If you just watch TV, then perhaps there is no point.

    PhatEd

    The LG UH850V and UH950V both use 10 bit panels and have Dolby Vision … The LG UH850V and UH950V both use 10 bit panels and have Dolby Vision included too



    Are you sure the UH850V is? I thought only the 950V was. Local dimming is a bit pish too:

    youtu.be/TWY…mw4

    moneysavingkitten

    Do you have any tips for researching panels? It's all well and good … Do you have any tips for researching panels? It's all well and good trying to research them, but finding out what they truly are is much harder than I expected. Manufacturers won't give a straight answer.Because my TV broke, why would I want to replace it with something that will be obsolete in less than 6 months? Both consoles will be capable to using these features very shortly.If you just watch TV, then perhaps there is no point.


    Unfortunately no, I would recommend checking on the AV forums for information about what panels are good. I've read some alarming posts about different regions of the same TV having different spec panels. Also I suspect TV manufacturers about being less than transparent about what type of panels they use. Too many times I've read crazy specs of 300Hz motion plus etc only to find that they're standard 60Hz panels.

    https://www.avforums.com/threads/list-of-lcd-panel-manufactures-the-panel-behind-the-brand.815307/
    panelook.com/app…php?applications%5B%5D=LCTV

    tftcentral.co.uk/art…htm <= interesting source of information on different panel types for monitors but should apply to TVs as well. Pretty shocking how many different types of IPS panels there are.

    I'd probably say the next TV you buy will be using a type of Quantum Dot display but even that might change

    kester76

    Unfortunately no, I would recommend checking on the AV forums for … Unfortunately no, I would recommend checking on the AV forums for information about what panels are good. I've read some alarming posts about different regions of the same TV having different spec panels. Also I suspect TV manufacturers about being less than transparent about what type of panels they use. Too many times I've read crazy specs of 300Hz motion plus etc only to find that they're standard 60Hz panels.https://www.avforums.com/threads/list-of-lcd-panel-manufactures-the-panel-behind-the-brand.815307/http://www.panelook.com/appmodlist.php?applications[]=LCTVhttp://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies.htm <= interesting source of information on different panel types for monitors but should apply to TVs as well. Pretty shocking how many different types of IPS panels there are.I'd probably say the next TV you buy will be using a type of Quantum Dot display but even that might change



    Couldn't agree more about the motion rates vs actual refresh rates. Last time I bought a TV the majority of specs I read have the refresh rate and the motion rate in them. Now it's a battle just to find out that information. I've got a list of formulas to try to extract them from PQI's etc now. It's beyond a joke.

    Thanks for for digging those links out. I appreciate it. I have added them to my ever growing list of TV resource bookmarks.

    prynolfc

    WARNING the "Samsung SUHD KS7000" has a flaw in the design where the … WARNING the "Samsung SUHD KS7000" has a flaw in the design where the plastic border is not glued on properly to the sides/edges/back of the panel! I have seen people moaning about this on the "AV Forums" and "Rtings" video reviews for that model on youtube. Not sure if this is also the case with the more expensive KS7500, KS8000 and KS9000 Models too, but considering the cheaper KS7000 is still being sold for over £1000 and it isn't even put together properly and is being labelled as "UHD Premium" is a farce! I had this TV in my wishlist and was just waiting for a reasonable price drop... but after finding out that the majority of the units being sent out to people are defected, I have decided to stay well clear of That line of Samsung Tele's now, How is their 10 years "Screen Burn Warranty" going to help anybody when they aren't making sure they've even designed the thing properly. It's shocking that Samsung aren't recalling them all just like them defected Galaxy Note 7 Phablets that have all been overheating.



    I had a look at the KS7000 again today as I was passing, it was on my mind what you had said here. I'd looked at it, but not really touched it. I noticed that the panel itself was a millimeter or two proud of the actual bezel, so it's not really being protected by it's edging.

    The strip of plastic at the bottom is also loose enough to easily get a nail behind, I reckon you could just pop it right off. Not that anyone would want to try or anything, but it shows the build quality isn't great.

    ACG has made some good informational videos about HDR, the most recent is this one...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKfuKuRQNM0

    Some good tips about what to look out for, obviously it is his opinion though.

    Personally I'm of the opinion that now is too early to purchase a HDR TV, wait for the tech to improve especially with respect to the lag/latency.

    Wow how times have changed, hdr, hdr-10, 8 bit and then HDR-12 not to mention dolby vision etc etc

    I have been reading up on this no idea how lol but it looks like il have a lot more as I don't plan to upgrade my Sammy plasma for a year or 2 atleast! By that time who knows dolby vision maybe defunct and maybe Samsung may dump quantum suhd and adopt oled! Their is always hope. Heheh

    moneysavingkitten

    Couldn't agree more about the motion rates vs actual refresh rates. Last … Couldn't agree more about the motion rates vs actual refresh rates. Last time I bought a TV the majority of specs I read have the refresh rate and the motion rate in them. Now it's a battle just to find out that information. I've got a list of formulas to try to extract them from PQI's etc now. It's beyond a joke.Thanks for for digging those links out. I appreciate it. I have added them to my ever growing list of TV resource bookmarks.I had a look at the KS7000 again today as I was passing, it was on my mind what you had said here. I'd looked at it, but not really touched it. I noticed that the panel itself was a millimeter or two proud of the actual bezel, so it's not really being protected by it's edging. The strip of plastic at the bottom is also loose enough to easily get a nail behind, I reckon you could just pop it right off. Not that anyone would want to try or anything, but it shows the build quality isn't great.



    ​Thanks for checking, I am definitely not going to bother with the KS7000 or any other KS model now, the fact that every KS7000 unit people have seen has the same issue makes me think they are all made badly. Unless they recall them and make an update to the build quality, it's going to be a bad idea to buy one in my opinion, can't see it lasting for more than a year or 2 without the thing falling apart.
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