800m world championships. Is it fair?

51
Found 10th Aug 2017
It is a quiet night on telly so I am watching the athletics on the BBC. At the moment we have the heats of the 800m for women. The controversy over caster semenya is well documented but as well in the heats today dorcus ajok and margaret wambui are through. I'm not for a minute suggesting they are men dressing as women and I am sure they identify as female through and through but are obviously considerably stronger and larger than the other women they compete against. Thing is though, is it a level playing field? If not, who do we penalise? If they are intersex it isn't their fault and if they are brought up as female, shouldn't they compete as female? I'm not sure how you call this one. I can only see everybody losing
Community Updates
Misc
Top comments
I wouldn't worry too much about it. The way the world is going, there'll be Greyhounds dressed as women allowed to compete soon.
If your born with testes and no ovaries you shouldn't be competing in a woman's race.
51 Comments
I wouldn't worry too much about it. The way the world is going, there'll be Greyhounds dressed as women allowed to compete soon.
No it's not fair, simply due to sexual dimorphism and the fact their bodies have had male hormones for X number of years. Specifically testosterone, regardless of the levels it may be at now.
If your born with testes and no ovaries you shouldn't be competing in a woman's race.
Athletics is full of cheats anyway in one way or another, be it the funding available in your country for decent training facilities, drugs or gender issues its all a faff and many have some advantage or another.
@psychobitchfromhell "It is a quiet night on telly... I can only see everybody losing"

I am watching "Laurel Hardy: Their Lives & Magic" on Sky Arts.

I think I'm winning.
Don't quote me as I'm no sports specialists but if they can create specific "groups" for Paralympics then they should create specific groups for born/live/train as male, born/live/train as female and those that fit into neither


Any born male changing sex/identity to female will have more testosterone and muscle than any female

AFAIK and again don't quote me but has anyone ever competed in any top sports where they were born female and live/train as male and winning medals? I don't think so because they would be disadvantaged but we are not allowed to discriminate in this 21st Century pffffft
don't quote me but... I heard Deeky is training to be on the women's beach volleyball team
It's quite far, 2 full laps. Not as far as the marathon.
DarkEnergy20123 m ago

don't quote me but... I heard Deeky is training to be on the women's beach …don't quote me but... I heard Deeky is training to be on the women's beach volleyball team


Oi! Copped you nicely there didn't I?
philphil6133 m ago

Don't quote me as I'm no sports specialists but if they can create …Don't quote me as I'm no sports specialists but if they can create specific "groups" for Paralympics then they should create specific groups for born/live/train as male, born/live/train as female and those that fit into neither Any born male changing sex/identity to female will have more testosterone and muscle than any femaleAFAIK and again don't quote me but has anyone ever competed in any top sports where they were born female and live/train as male and winning medals? I don't think so because they would be disadvantaged but we are not allowed to discriminate in this 21st Century pffffft



The problem with that is intersex conditions, what do you tell someone born 90% women but otherwise balls and elevated testosterone.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wik…ers
Its a dilemma. I don't think they should be discriminated against for a condition which is no fault of their own but if you look at the physique it produces it clearly gives them a huge physical advantage
psychobitchfromhell6 m ago

Its a dilemma. I don't think they should be discriminated against for a …Its a dilemma. I don't think they should be discriminated against for a condition which is no fault of their own but if you look at the physique it produces it clearly gives them a huge physical advantage


Meh, just don't have men's and women's races. Mix them all genders together. Equality at it's finest.
MSK.9 m ago

Meh, just don't have men's and women's races. Mix them all genders …Meh, just don't have men's and women's races. Mix them all genders together. Equality at it's finest.


Make the men run backwards just to even things out a bit
shadey124 h, 33 m ago

If your born with testes and no ovaries you shouldn't be competing in a …If your born with testes and no ovaries you shouldn't be competing in a woman's race.

What race can she compete in then? There's no 'balls but no cock' race.
Yes it is fair.

You are born one sex or another.

Within the scope of each sex there will be those that have physical advantages over another.

If we went along a route of penalising the likes of Semenya then you would have to look at all the other aspects of body build, like penalising high jumpers because their height disadvantages short people.
reddit49 m ago

Yes it is fair.You are born one sex or another.Within the scope of each …Yes it is fair.You are born one sex or another.Within the scope of each sex there will be those that have physical advantages over another.If we went along a route of penalising the likes of Semenya then you would have to look at all the other aspects of body build, like penalising high jumpers because their height disadvantages short people.


That over simplifies things. These people were declared female at birth purely because they didn't have a penis, as that's the most obvious difference between the genders.

Biology and science does not define male / female purely by the presence / lack of penis.

What a midwife says after labour doesn't overrule science.

Not saying they can't compete, but relying on what a midwife says 5 seconds after birth can't be the be all and end all of gender identification (even though what they say will identify the gender to the family for many, many years).
catbeans7 h, 8 m ago

The problem with that is intersex conditions, what do you tell someone …The problem with that is intersex conditions, what do you tell someone born 90% women but otherwise balls and elevated testosterone. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders


As stated males born male and live as male complete in male competitions
The same for female

And like Paralympics where certain criteria specifies which category/who they compete against
eg persons born male but they've gone through complete or partial gender change can only compete against similar
and females born female but they've gone through complete or partial gender change can only compete against similar
I doubt there's many Vinny Ohh's (clicky) in this world who compete at sports but if there was then they would have their own category also


I'm no scientist or professor but I'm almost 100% certain that there's medical proof that being born a male and going through a sex change will not make the body feminine compared to a natural female and as the human male species as through evolution has become stronger it is unfair for a person born male but now identified as female to compete against a normal female.


If someone decides to have robotic modifications just to enhance their speed and power, sort of Steve Austin Six Million Dollar Man, should they still be allowed to compete against a normal male because they are still male? or would it be classed as unfair advantage and therefore given their equals to compete against?


Equality means equal rights - having someone born male but identifies as female competing against other females is against equality in my eyes.
Edited by: "philphil61" 11th Aug 2017
reddit2 h, 16 m ago

Yes it is fair.You are born one sex or another.Within the scope of each …Yes it is fair.You are born one sex or another.Within the scope of each sex there will be those that have physical advantages over another.If we went along a route of penalising the likes of Semenya then you would have to look at all the other aspects of body build, like penalising high jumpers because their height disadvantages short people.


I'm really small so I know I could never be a high jumper. The thing is to state you are born one sex or another doesn't really cover all the bases. I'm not saying it is the same as the shot putters of the seventies who were clearly male, these girls clearly think of themselves as female and with that I have no issue. They are female but they have attributes which clearly elevate them way beyond the norm athletically. I'm happy for them to compete but if I were a top female athlete coming up against someone who had so much more of an advantage, what would be my motivation?
philphil6110 h, 17 m ago

Don't quote me as I'm no sports specialists but if they can create …Don't quote me as I'm no sports specialists but if they can create specific "groups" for Paralympics then they should create specific groups for born/live/train as male, born/live/train as female and those that fit into neither Any born male changing sex/identity to female will have more testosterone and muscle than any femaleAFAIK and again don't quote me but has anyone ever competed in any top sports where they were born female and live/train as male and winning medals? I don't think so because they would be disadvantaged but we are not allowed to discriminate in this 21st Century pffffft


Women do not shout about it and expect to be treated special, from what i understand if you count ones who've not had surgery along with those who have the numbers of women living as men and men living as women is about the same.

It comes down to nurture anyway the brain is a blank slate and its been shown in studies that social pressure molds the development of the brain into typically male and typically female neurological pathways, they studied people from cultures where the gender expectations are not as pronounced and found the difference between sex's in things like logical or emotional thinking was far more equal and brain scans showed their neural pathways practically the same.

So its only logical then to see the lack of in your face trans women as we spend our lives being conditioned to fail basically, do our best and not take it to heart if we can't do as well, so they live a quieter life and keep themselves to themselves.

Where as trans men, were raised as male and they are conditioned that winning is everything don't be a loser, shout about what you want, be competitive. So you see them in sport unashamedly clogging up the women's sports without any hint of feeling bad about it.
Error44021 m ago

Women do not shout about it and expect to be treated special, from what i …Women do not shout about it and expect to be treated special, from what i understand if you count ones who've not had surgery along with those who have the numbers of women living as men and men living as women is about the same.It comes down to nurture anyway the brain is a blank slate and its been shown in studies that social pressure molds the development of the brain into typically male and typically female neurological pathways, they studied people from cultures where the gender expectations are not as pronounced and found the difference between sex's in things like logical or emotional thinking was far more equal and brain scans showed their neural pathways practically the same.So its only logical then to see the lack of in your face trans women as we spend our lives being conditioned to fail basically, do our best and not take it to heart if we can't do as well, so they live a quieter life and keep themselves to themselves.Where as trans men, were raised as male and they are conditioned that winning is everything don't be a loser, shout about what you want, be competitive. So you see them in sport unashamedly clogging up the women's sports without any hint of feeling bad about it.


You have completely missed the point here. It isn't nurture we are discussing, it is nature. These women have the advantage of a male physique. Nobody is denying they see themselves as women, the thing is should they compete as women when they have the physical advantages of being male? In theory we could have an intersex podium. The question is whether that s fair
fanpages13 h, 13 m ago

I am watching "Laurel Hardy: Their Lives & Magic" on Sky Arts.I think I'm …I am watching "Laurel Hardy: Their Lives & Magic" on Sky Arts.I think I'm winning.


Very good.
Edited by: "Predikuesi" 11th Aug 2017
psychobitchfromhell1 h, 24 m ago

You have completely missed the point here. It isn't nurture we are …You have completely missed the point here. It isn't nurture we are discussing, it is nature. These women have the advantage of a male physique. Nobody is denying they see themselves as women, the thing is should they compete as women when they have the physical advantages of being male? In theory we could have an intersex podium. The question is whether that s fair


No you've missed the point,if there was any female to males in sport they are unlikely to shout about it
Are mixed gender International Football matches (with the continuation of the tradition of shirt-swapping) in Sky TV's new channel bundles?
Error4402 h, 15 m ago

No you've missed the point,if there was any female to males in sport they …No you've missed the point,if there was any female to males in sport they are unlikely to shout about it


Because they wouldn't make it to major events.
Error4402 h, 41 m ago

No you've missed the point,if there was any female to males in sport they …No you've missed the point,if there was any female to males in sport they are unlikely to shout about it


How can I miss the point when I made it in the first place?
psychobitchfromhell3 m ago

How can I miss the point when I made it in the first place?


Your name's not PhilPhil61
Error4404 m ago

Your name's not PhilPhil61


Indeed it isn't but as you answered my comment, I assumed you were replying to me.
psychobitchfromhell21 m ago

Indeed it isn't but as you answered my comment, I assumed you were …Indeed it isn't but as you answered my comment, I assumed you were replying to me.


Can you not see quotes?
Error44023 m ago

Can you not see quotes?


Yes I can. When you reply to one of my comments I naturally think you are replying to me not to Phil.
psychobitchfromhell9 m ago

Yes I can. When you reply to one of my comments I naturally think you are …Yes I can. When you reply to one of my comments I naturally think you are replying to me not to Phil.


This is Misc if your quoting your replying to the quote, conversations do not cascade down like a waterfall of continuation, thats why there is often many conversations going on in one thread
I think this might just be a situation where there is no clear-cut solution. If these women are completely natural, and I have no reason to believe that they aren't, then it isn't their fault that they are bigger and stronger than most of the other female athletes. But to have them complete against in regular female classes is unfair. They have a massive advantage which means that women who compete in the same events as them might as well just give up.

So, put them in with the men. Well then, that's not fair on the Semanyas etc because the men would just wipe the floor with them.

I think the only real leveller would be to have a special category for them, like Phil mentioned, in the paralympics, where they can compete against each other on a level playing field.

But then they could claim 'but I'm not disabled in any way'.

'Shrugs'

If there is a fair solution, I'd be interested to hear it.
deeky7 m ago

I think this might just be a situation where there is no clear-cut …I think this might just be a situation where there is no clear-cut solution. If these women are completely natural, and I have no reason to believe that they aren't, then it isn't their fault that they are bigger and stronger than most of the other female athletes. But to have them complete against in regular female classes is unfair. They have a massive advantage which means that women who compete in the same events as them might as well just give up.So, put them in with the men. Well then, that's not fair on the Semanyas etc because the men would just wipe the floor with them.I think the only real leveller would be to have a special category for them, like Phil mentioned, in the paralympics, where they can compete against each other in fair contests.But then they could claim 'but I'm not disabled in any way.'Shrugs'If there is a fair solution, I'd be interested to hear it.


A fair solution would be tiering and doing the same with all events would help people from poorer nations too, its pretty unfair in the Olympics when we see the 600 strong American team and the 3 people turning up from Tonga, you know who's going to dominate the medals table.

Ability tiering the athletes from tier 1,2,3 etc compeating within their tier group.
Edited by: "Segata-Sanshiro" 11th Aug 2017
Error44031 m ago

This is Misc if your quoting your replying to the quote, conversations do …This is Misc if your quoting your replying to the quote, conversations do not cascade down like a waterfall of continuation, thats why there is often many conversations going on in one thread


Now you are contradicting yourself. If you aren't replying to me, why are you answering me? If conversations do not cascade, why are we having this conversation? Maybe we aren't
deeky25 m ago

I think this might just be a situation where there is no clear-cut …I think this might just be a situation where there is no clear-cut solution. If these women are completely natural, and I have no reason to believe that they aren't, then it isn't their fault that they are bigger and stronger than most of the other female athletes. But to have them complete against in regular female classes is unfair. They have a massive advantage which means that women who compete in the same events as them might as well just give up.So, put them in with the men. Well then, that's not fair on the Semanyas etc because the men would just wipe the floor with them.I think the only real leveller would be to have a special category for them, like Phil mentioned, in the paralympics, where they can compete against each other on a level playing field.But then they could claim 'but I'm not disabled in any way'.'Shrugs'If there is a fair solution, I'd be interested to hear it.


Rock and a hard place.
eayragt10 h, 26 m ago

That over simplifies things. These people were declared female at birth …That over simplifies things. These people were declared female at birth purely because they didn't have a penis, as that's the most obvious difference between the genders.Biology and science does not define male / female purely by the presence / lack of penis.What a midwife says after labour doesn't overrule science.Not saying they can't compete, but relying on what a midwife says 5 seconds after birth can't be the be all and end all of gender identification (even though what they say will identify the gender to the family for many, many years).


It is because it is just that simple.

At birth we are make or female.

You can forget talk about gender because gender assignment is a choice.

If somebody is born female and decides not to go through any change process then they are female full stop.

If, athletically speaking it makes them superior to other women then that is just the way it is.

You don't try and level a playing field because other throw their toys out of the pram because they are not winning.

And when discussing somebody like Semenya let us not forget that she is not winning everything.
reddit45 m ago

It is because it is just that simple.At birth we are make or female.You …It is because it is just that simple.At birth we are make or female.You can forget talk about gender because gender assignment is a choice.If somebody is born female and decides not to go through any change process then they are female full stop.If, athletically speaking it makes them superior to other women then that is just the way it is.You don't try and level a playing field because other throw their toys out of the pram because they are not winning.And when discussing somebody like Semenya let us not forget that she is not winning everything.


That's fine, but just because you don't have male reproductive organs doesn't make you female.

Just like not having a female reproductive system doesn't make you male.

Who decides whether you are male or female? A midwife? They're not qualified to do that. They look for dangly bits. Just because 99.99% of the time they get it right doesn't mean when they get it wrong it must be accepted as correct.

If Usain Bolt was born without his manhood (and everything else was equal), he would have female on his birth certificate. Would he be female? No. I know that's not exactly this argument, but you've failed to differentiate between my example and the topic at hand.
However, I will argue against myself to play Devil's Advocate. Caster Semenya was born a male, according to science if you don't believe in intersex. A mistake was made on her birth certificate due to her lack of dangly bits. This has never been corrected, so she is allowed into Woman's events. She identifies as a female, but this may be learned behaviour rather than a choice. Legally, she is a female. So, equality rules and all that...

Semenya is not Transgender.

However if Semenya was identified as a male, and she trans'ed to a female, she could compete as a female. It would be illegal to exclude her. Equally, Justin Gaitlin could trans to a female, and then set a new Woman's World Record. The only way to get around this is to set new events, XX and XY categories, or above / below Z testosterone level. However, that would involve testing every single athlete, so that doesn't work.

The IAAF are sadly probably desperately hoping there is no quality Transgender athlete anytime soon, as the playing field won't be level, but there's nothing they could do about it (they were able to get away with restricting Pistorius's times without falling foul of equality rules as some blades were identified as advantageous, but there is nothing they could do here.

It's a pretty sad state for both sides that's the position that the IAAF find themselves in.
reddit17 h, 6 m ago

Yes it is fair.You are born one sex or another.Within the scope of each …Yes it is fair.You are born one sex or another.Within the scope of each sex there will be those that have physical advantages over another.If we went along a route of penalising the likes of Semenya then you would have to look at all the other aspects of body build, like penalising high jumpers because their height disadvantages short people.



There are weight divisions in boxing, how is that penalising anybody?
What a load of old dogs danglies.

If the competitors are born with a medical mutation that makes them not 100% one sex or another.
Let them compete in the already established games. The most prestigious of which is the Paralympics.

I see it as no different from someone with another genetic impairment that prevents people from competing in 'able bodies' events. Runners with blades in some cases are enhanced, they don't get into normal races.
Oneday775 h, 10 m ago

What a load of old dogs danglies.If the competitors are born with a …What a load of old dogs danglies.If the competitors are born with a medical mutation that makes them not 100% one sex or another.Let them compete in the already established games. The most prestigious of which is the Paralympics.I see it as no different from someone with another genetic impairment that prevents people from competing in 'able bodies' events. Runners with blades in some cases are enhanced, they don't get into normal races.


Disabled people are allowed to participate with able body people, no-one has banned them. Some blades are banned as they're an unnatural advantage, so no discrimination there.

The entry for Woman's athletics is simple - you have to be a woman. That's it. So actually the debate is more sex vs gender. And that's where intersex comes in.
Post a comment
Avatar
@
    Text

    Top Discussions

    Top Merchants