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Posted 27th Nov 2021
ACTION FRAUD-HELP NEEDED PLS

So, l sold 2 brand new phones on Gumtree 2 months ago, the buyer contacted me through message on phone asking if l have any problem posting, said no problems (thinking payment by PayPal Friends and Family will cover me as there will be no recourse to get the money back, BIG MISTAKE)

He said something about PayPal not allowing him to send full amount, so he will ask one of friend to send the remainder) and l received the full amount (From him and his friend) so l duly sent the phone registered/tracked/insured. he acknowledged receipt and ask if l got any more (as my partner was happy with her present phone, so she said sell it, the phones were purchased outright from manufacturer)

As l have no problem with first one, said yes (that l was about to list the other phone) the buyer made payment again through Friend and Family and reportedly said again unable to send full amount due to his PayPal limiting how much he could send and will ask a mate to send remainder, received full amount (from him and his mate) again all through Paypal Friends and Family, sent again through Tracked/Registered and insured and he acknowledged receipt by messaging me via text, same as before.

End of, l thought, 2 weeks later received email from PayPal ascertaining unauthorised transaction by this individual of the first phone and the payment by his friend as well, was furious, surely Friends and family is not subject to refunds/reversal (IF you did not report your account hacked/compromised) l was wrong, PayPal needless to say hid under `Oh it`s beyond our control as it`s issuing bank reversing it.

But, but, but l argued `Has he reported his account hacked/compromised and surely a bit of coincidence that 2 separate individuals reporting unauthorised payment to myself??

Needless to say, he was repaid the amount and PayPal chasing me for the money, surely the law is on my side and any competent Law agency can see what`s going on here.

l reported the case online to my local police, of course straight away not their department (though this is a case of receiving goods under false representation by the buyer) was directed to Action Fraud, after 3 weeks they have come back to say, there is nothing to go on, even though l got his right name (as this is the name on PayPal, his bank to request reversal of the funds and his address, where the phones were delivered and all correspondence via text messages)

My question is how do l respond to Action Fraud as the initial report did not ask for evidence of the transactions or my correspondence with him and Royal Mail receipts of phones sent and acknowledgement of receipts of the phones by him.

To make matters worse, just now received email from PayPal that the buyer has submitted unauthorised transaction for the second phone, so literally laughing to the bank with my 2 phones and almost 2K in money.

Anyone dealt with something like this or how to respond to Action Fraud (Though, l strongly believe a visit to ask him about it will have made him rethink for future and charging him with receiving goods under false pretenses, l mean if you go and buy something and cancel the card payment, it`s not yours to keep is it??)

PLEASE HELP, if you come this far to read my anguish and Thank you for your time
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Posting and PayPal are the big no-nos surely on Gumtree?
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deleted266355127/11/2021 14:50

Come on, you've been around long enough to know. Even if your not on this …Come on, you've been around long enough to know. Even if your not on this site it's reported everywhere, where someone got scammed. This is oldest scam since PayPal come out, you should have known better. But you saw 💰💰 and got distracted. Surely you must have known why people don't post stuff on gumtree? Anyway lesson learned I hope. All you can do is block IMEI of both and if you have enough evidence take them to small claims court if possible.


I disagree with that. It's well known that people can claim money back through goods and services, it's not well known that money can be reversed through family and friends.
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I feel for you. Had no idea that friends and family can be reversed.

You have his name, address and evidence. Take him to small claims court.
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wottodo27/11/2021 14:10

l surely ought to know better, l really thought and researched Paypal …l surely ought to know better, l really thought and researched Paypal Friend and Family, thinking it is wht is says on the tin-No refunds as long as your account is not hacked, now l know better regarding Paypal Friends and Family


Cash & collection.

That's it. Anyone who asks for different is planning to screw you down the line...

That's why I only use use CEX to sell
68 Comments
  1. Avatar
    Posting and PayPal are the big no-nos surely on Gumtree?
  2. Avatar
    Author
    Gollywood27/11/2021 14:06

    Posting and PayPal are the big no-nos surely on Gumtree?


    l surely ought to know better, l really thought and researched Paypal Friend and Family, thinking it is wht is says on the tin-No refunds as long as your account is not hacked, now l know better regarding Paypal Friends and Family
  3. Avatar
    wottodo27/11/2021 14:10

    l surely ought to know better, l really thought and researched Paypal …l surely ought to know better, l really thought and researched Paypal Friend and Family, thinking it is wht is says on the tin-No refunds as long as your account is not hacked, now l know better regarding Paypal Friends and Family


    Cash & collection.

    That's it. Anyone who asks for different is planning to screw you down the line...

    That's why I only use use CEX to sell
  4. Avatar
    If someone offered to pay you for an item by friends and family thats not being collected in person, that should of been a huge red flag, any real buyer would be worried they are not going to receive the phone
  5. Avatar
    I think you threw most, if not all, of your protection away by accepting friends/family payments.
    Other than sending a few heavies round for a visit, I can't see you getting your phones or money back. Sorry. 😔
  6. Avatar
    As Gollywood said you have made 2 basic but major errors.

    I wonder if you are able to maybe contact the company you bought these phones from and maybe report them as stolen and block them?? At lease then maybe the thieves wont have them to use?

    If action fruad wont investigate im not sure what else can be done?
  7. Avatar
    His name and address is most likely fake.

    Hate to say you may not be able to do anything. Never post when selling things on sites like gumtree and Facebook they are riddled with scammers
  8. Avatar
    so has paypal reversed the payments because the seller and his friend had stolen a paypal account and made payment from there?
  9. Avatar
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    TheMan_Aman27/11/2021 14:14

    His name and address is most likely fake. Hate to say you may not be able …His name and address is most likely fake. Hate to say you may not be able to do anything. Never post when selling things on sites like gumtree and Facebook they are riddled with scammers


    How?? The phones were received at address and he acknowledged receipt, also it`s the same name used on Paypal to request funds back, so if fake, PayPal will have details of which bank requested money etc, but of course hiding under `Can`t disclose 3rd party information` while expecting me to fork out 2K back
  10. Avatar
    You know where he lives right. Maybe a long drive with friends and asking him in person might help?
  11. Avatar
    Author
    mutley127/11/2021 14:15

    so has paypal reversed the payments because the seller and his friend had …so has paypal reversed the payments because the seller and his friend had stolen a paypal account and made payment from there?


    Nope, l am the seller, they have fraudulently reversed the payments that `The Payments not authorised (yeah 3 strangers somehow unauthorised payment via friends and family to someone unknown or transaction and Paypal can`t see the fraud or chose not.
  12. Avatar
    wottodo27/11/2021 14:23

    Nope, l am the seller, they have fraudulently reversed the payments that …Nope, l am the seller, they have fraudulently reversed the payments that `The Payments not authorised (yeah 3 strangers somehow unauthorised payment via friends and family to someone unknown or transaction and Paypal can`t see the fraud or chose not.


    so you can make a payment via paypal to family and friends and then ask paypal to reverse the payment and state the reason that you didn't authorise it?
  13. Avatar
    Avenger27/11/2021 14:14

    I wonder if you are able to maybe contact the company you bought these …I wonder if you are able to maybe contact the company you bought these phones from and maybe report them as stolen and block them?? At lease then maybe the thieves wont have them to use?


    Great idea - alas the scumbags have probably already sold them on to some other poor sod.

    Still worth doing - hopefully that person will take the phones to the cops as a result (0.01% chance they will be returned) & claim their money back somehow.
  14. Avatar
    If I were you, I’d cause a big fuss to PayPal/your bank and don’t back down.
  15. Avatar
    Author
    mutley127/11/2021 14:24

    so you can make a payment via paypal to family and friends and then ask …so you can make a payment via paypal to family and friends and then ask paypal to reverse the payment and state the reason that you didn't authorise it?


    Yep, l NEVER knew you could do that, so peeps saying Dumb Move by myself, hands up many `Who actually knows this can be done` Lessons learned though! The fraudster will ask their bank to reverse it (though PayPal terms and condition is non refundable if you CANNOT prove or report your account hacked/stolen/compromised PRIOR to the money sent) that is what l based the PayPal Friends and Family payment on.
    Edited by: "wottodo" 27th Nov 2021
  16. Avatar
    Action Fraud is just a crime reporting tool, they don't actually do anything. If you had used normal Paypal you would have been covered with proof of postage, nothing you can do to recover your money but you can report the theft to the police.
  17. Avatar
    wottodo27/11/2021 14:28

    Yep, l NEVER knew you coluld do that, so peeps saying Dumb Move by myself, …Yep, l NEVER knew you coluld do that, so peeps saying Dumb Move by myself, hands up many `Who actually knows this can be done` Lessons learned though!


    i guess it means you gave your family some cash then you decide you don't like them anymore so you are taking it back. seems to be a very odd way of conducting business and paypal is the culprit here to allow such actions to take place.

    i stay clear of paypal as i find they are very bad and i don't trust them. i guess lesson learnt, if you ever hear the word paypal, just run.

    gumtree is not a place to sell expensive items as there are so many scammers on there. i only ever sell anything less than £100 on gumtree. i have heard people on this site advise only accept paypal as friends and family if you sell anything as that can't be reversed. wrong advice obviously.
  18. Avatar
    Author
    Azwipe27/11/2021 14:29

    Action Fraud is just a crime reporting tool, they don't actually do …Action Fraud is just a crime reporting tool, they don't actually do anything. If you had used normal Paypal you would have been covered with proof of postage, nothing you can do to recover your money but you can report the theft to the police.


    Hopefully will meet someone sympatheic at the station and will ACTUALLY listen and not just dismiss my issue as too much paperwork with no benefit to his/her career
  19. Avatar
    Author
    mutley127/11/2021 14:33

    i guess it means you gave your family some cash then you decide you don't …i guess it means you gave your family some cash then you decide you don't like them anymore so you are taking it back. seems to be a very odd way of conducting business and paypal is the culprit here to allow such actions to take place.i stay clear of paypal as i find they are very bad and i don't trust them. i guess lesson learnt, if you ever hear the word paypal, just run.gumtree is not a place to sell expensive items as there are so many scammers on there. i only ever sell anything less than £100 on gumtree. i have heard people on this site advise only accept paypal as friends and family if you sell anything as that can't be reversed. wrong advice obviously.


    Honestly, that is what l thought that surely Friends and Family is set in stones and it`s irreversible, now l know NOT and hopefully others now know.
  20. Avatar
    Can you ring the supplying network to get the handsets' IMEIs blocked? Would at least render them useless in the UK (assuming it's the same as it used to be years ago, where it wasn't an international block).
  21. Avatar
    Author
    Ioa27/11/2021 14:28

    If I were you, I’d cause a big fuss to PayPal/your bank and don’t back dow …If I were you, I’d cause a big fuss to PayPal/your bank and don’t back down.


    Already making the biggest noises (luckily, there is an agent (Paypal) the replied to my rage and anguish and can see what is going on and promise to keep the messages ongoing, so just message him again to report the latest fraud action ed by the buyer
  22. Avatar
    wottodo27/11/2021 14:40

    Already making the biggest noises (luckily, there is an agent (Paypal) the …Already making the biggest noises (luckily, there is an agent (Paypal) the replied to my rage and anguish and can see what is going on and promise to keep the messages ongoing, so just message him again to report the latest fraud action ed by the buyer


    Also if you have proof of messages from the scammer, i think that should also help
  23. Avatar
    I feel for you. Had no idea that friends and family can be reversed.

    You have his name, address and evidence. Take him to small claims court.
  24. Avatar
    Author
    Bossworld27/11/2021 14:36

    Can you ring the supplying network to get the handsets' IMEIs blocked? …Can you ring the supplying network to get the handsets' IMEIs blocked? Would at least render them useless in the UK (assuming it's the same as it used to be years ago, where it wasn't an international block).


    Because it`s brand new, contacted the manufacturer and they could not help as it was not activated then.

    Thanks for saying that, may be now that the phones are activated (just checked now) could find out the network and pursued them (even if by court) they will reveal who is using the phones and hopefully will lead straight back to them if using in this country.
  25. Avatar
    Author
    BigBoss8527/11/2021 14:42

    I feel for you. Had no idea that friends and family can be reversed. You …I feel for you. Had no idea that friends and family can be reversed. You have his name, address and evidence. Take him to small claims court.


    Looks like that will be the resort and the have my day in court
  26. Avatar
    Can you not tell paypal that you are happy to refund when the phones are returned?
  27. Avatar
    wottodo27/11/2021 14:35

    Honestly, that is what l thought that surely Friends and Family is set in …Honestly, that is what l thought that surely Friends and Family is set in stones and it`s irreversible, now l know NOT and hopefully others now know.


    i had posted a question on here before about accepting paypal and i was advised by a few people that i could do so if i ask for payment as friends and family as this can not be reversed because paypal will often side with the buyer, like ebay, if you accept payment for services or goods.

    so you are not the only one who didn't know this.
  28. Avatar
    Come on, you've been around long enough to know. Even if your not on this site it's reported everywhere, where someone got scammed. This is oldest scam since PayPal come out, you should have known better. But you saw 💰💰 and got distracted. Surely you must have known why people don't post stuff on gumtree? Anyway lesson learned I hope.
    All you can do is block IMEI of both and if you have enough evidence take them to small claims court if possible.
  29. Avatar
    Are you sure it is really the person you think and not rather two hacked PP accounts and the parcel was intercepted by someone
  30. Avatar
    deleted266355127/11/2021 14:50

    Come on, you've been around long enough to know. Even if your not on this …Come on, you've been around long enough to know. Even if your not on this site it's reported everywhere, where someone got scammed. This is oldest scam since PayPal come out, you should have known better. But you saw 💰💰 and got distracted. Surely you must have known why people don't post stuff on gumtree? Anyway lesson learned I hope. All you can do is block IMEI of both and if you have enough evidence take them to small claims court if possible.


    I disagree with that. It's well known that people can claim money back through goods and services, it's not well known that money can be reversed through family and friends.
  31. Avatar
    Author
    Buckyball27/11/2021 14:53

    Are you sure it is really the person you think and not rather two hacked …Are you sure it is really the person you think and not rather two hacked PP accounts and the parcel was intercepted by someone


    It is, otherwise how will 3 total stranger reverse funds and the fact that same person just reverse the second fund today, obviously happy thinking he got away with the first one
  32. Avatar
    Author
    BigBoss8527/11/2021 14:54

    I disagree with that. It's well known that people can claim money back …I disagree with that. It's well known that people can claim money back through goods and services, it's not well known that money can be reversed through family and friends.


    Thank you, l am someone that will always question peeps judgement to obvious scam, but like l said `How Many Truly Knows Paypal Friends And Family` can be reversed!
  33. Avatar
    donotpay.com/lea…und


    the above link states that you can get your money back if your account has been hacked and the money made fraudulently, and not if you simply changed your mind and don't like your family and friends anymore.


    so the payments are reversed because the accounts had been hacked. paypal has accepted this as a reason and so have asked for the money back.

    you will need to convince them that this is not the case, but the accounts may have actually been hacked.
  34. Avatar
    It states on the gumtree safety centre to only use friends & family with someone you trust
    help.gumtree.com/s/s…ms2
  35. Avatar
    Author
    mutley127/11/2021 15:01

    https://donotpay.com/learn/paypal-friends-and-family-refundthe above link …https://donotpay.com/learn/paypal-friends-and-family-refundthe above link states that you can get your money back if your account has been hacked and the money made fraudulently, and not if you simply changed your mind and don't like your family and friends anymore.so the payments are reversed because the accounts had been hacked. paypal has accepted this as a reason and so have asked for the money back.you will need to convince them that this is not the case, but the accounts may have actually been hacked.


    Probable BUT definitely NOT that 3 total strangers (not aware of each other existence, which is NOT the case as the main buyer asked 2 other friends to make up the shortfall of full payment as his accounts seems to limit how much he could send.) have their accounts hacked and pay random guy through PayPal Friends and Family and one of the waited after getting reverse charges to pursue the funds for the second phone
  36. Avatar
    BigBoss8527/11/2021 14:54

    I disagree with that. It's well known that people can claim money back …I disagree with that. It's well known that people can claim money back through goods and services, it's not well known that money can be reversed through family and friends.


    You can disagree all you want. But you knew people don't post on gumtree, it's cash on collection for a reason. Yeah make an excuse for that to.
  37. Avatar
    I’m thinking when you went the friends and family route you made this a civil matter and the burden would be on you to prove you had an agreement or contract stating different
  38. Avatar
    sm969027/11/2021 15:02

    It states on the gumtree safety centre to only use friends & family with …It states on the gumtree safety centre to only use friends & family with someone you trusthttps://help.gumtree.com/s/safety?cat=Types_of_Scams&article=PayPal-Scams2


    because friends and family payments can not be reversed if the goods don't arrive. the link i posted also states that friends and family are scammers preferred method of accepting payments because you can't reverse the payment if your goods don't arrive.

    so the OP should be safer accepting friends and family payment than for goods and services.
  39. Avatar
    wottodo27/11/2021 15:06

    Probable BUT definitely NOT that 3 total strangers (not aware of each …Probable BUT definitely NOT that 3 total strangers (not aware of each other existence, which is NOT the case as the main buyer asked 2 other friends to make up the shortfall of full payment as his accounts seems to limit how much he could send.) have their accounts hacked and pay random guy through PayPal Friends and Family and one of the waited after getting reverse charges to pursue the funds for the second phone


    if someone hacked paypal accounts, they won't hack just one account, they would hack several as they would have the ability to do this. they may have hacked 3 paypal accounts and the balance in the accounts were not enough to cover the purchase so they had to use more than one account to pay you.

    this would explain why the payment made from more than one account.
  40. Avatar
    Author
    mutley127/11/2021 15:09

    because friends and family payments can not be reversed if the goods don't …because friends and family payments can not be reversed if the goods don't arrive. the link i posted also states that friends and family are scammers preferred method of accepting payments because you can't reverse the payment if your goods don't arrive.so the OP should be safer accepting friends and family payment than for goods and services.


    Exactly, my line of thinking

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