Advice needed on tenant Issues

57
Posted 10th Jan
basically I got some tenants who I need them too move out, they are currently in a periodic tenancy I have given them the section 21 notice which has know finished and they want too move too a council property but won't leave mine until a council gives them a property they really getting me fedup. the problem is when I gave them the guide to renting, the EPC and gas safety certificate at start of tenancy. I didn't get them too sign anything too confirm this other than the tenancy agreement. if I apply for a court order know is this a big problem or can I just explain this or will this not be accepted. no deposit was taken so don't need show any proof of having it out into a scheme is this correct.
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MynameisM10/01/2020 22:28

...as they wanted too move too a council property but they wanted me too …...as they wanted too move too a council property but they wanted me too say there are problems with the property and I need them too move out.


Sounds like the tenants may actually want you to have them evicted, as they may believe that eviction/homelessness might bump them up the council housing priority list.
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If it's going to be a problem now, it's still going to be a problem in 2 / 3 / 4+ months time if the tenants are still resident. Is there any benefit to delaying court action?
Caridon Property Ltd v Monty Shooltz

My understanding is you just have to serve it, the signature is belts and braces if tenants don't want to leave.

Are the tenants in breach of the tenancy agreement?
Edited by: "OllieSt" 10th Jan
OllieSt10/01/2020 22:21

Caridon Property Ltd v Monty ShooltzMy understanding is you just have to …Caridon Property Ltd v Monty ShooltzMy understanding is you just have to serve it, the signature is belts and braces if tenants don't want to leave.Are the tenants in breach of the tenancy agreement?


, Basically the tenancy agreement ended in April 2019, after that they were on a periodic tenancy as they wanted too move too a council property but they wanted me too say there are problems with the property and I need them too move out. I told them no I can't just make up things. I believe they have been making alot of little things like leaks in upstairs bathrooms and aren't ventilaing the kitchen properly have had the bathroom fixe din numerous occat had the kitchen cleaned and repainted in April 2018 but they don't seem too open the doors and windows enough plus won't wipe walls we have had enough of them and they aren't leaving, they keep saying when we get a council property we will move out. So in September we went and gave them a section 21 notice a non fault notice which finished in December , but they haven't moved out.
Edited by: "MynameisM" 10th Jan
Sounds as if you now need to issue a Possession Order.
gov.uk/evi…nts
Just go to court. They haven't recognised the Section 21 so get possession. They are renting a property off of you & now regard you as weak.
tardytortoise10/01/2020 22:29

Sounds as if you now need to issue a Possession …Sounds as if you now need to issue a Possession Order.https://www.gov.uk/evicting-tenants


Yes we are just worried incase they refuse as we didn't get a signature off the tenants too prove we have gave them all the documents that are required at start of tenancy. It's abit silly as when we first give the documents it doesn't say you need get proof of giving these but when the time comes too court you need proof that these were given too tenants.
MynameisM10/01/2020 22:33

Yes we are just worried incase they refuse as we didn't get a signature …Yes we are just worried incase they refuse as we didn't get a signature off the tenants too prove we have gave them all the documents that are required at start of tenancy. It's abit silly as when we first give the documents it doesn't say you need get proof of giving these but when the time comes too court you need proof that these were given too tenants.



How else are you going to get them out of your property without going to court? They are not listening as the moment.
Willy_Wonka10/01/2020 22:35

How else are you going to get them out of your property without going to …How else are you going to get them out of your property without going to court? They are not listening as the moment.


Can the court decide if we haven't got the proof of the documents been served too them, that they can stay, they have stopped paying rent for 3 months know aswell.
MynameisM10/01/2020 22:38

Can the court decide if we haven't got the proof of the documents been …Can the court decide if we haven't got the proof of the documents been served too them, that they can stay, they have stopped paying rent for 3 months know aswell.


One way or another you have to go to court. Do it now & stop delaying it OR are you going to let them stay in your property for the rest of your life because you cannot prove you gave them a piece of paper?

I have the feeling you are taking the mick & this is a troll post. Just go to court & do the court forms on monday & pay the fee. The longer you leave it the more it will cost you regardless of whatever else can happen.

Oh & when you do the court forms carry on with the eviction under section 21.

DO NOT GO TO COURT FOR MISSING RENT. You can go after them for missing rent when they are out of your property.
Edited by: "Willy_Wonka" 10th Jan
MynameisM10/01/2020 22:33

Yes we are just worried incase they refuse as we didn't get a signature …Yes we are just worried incase they refuse as we didn't get a signature off the tenants too prove we have gave them all the documents that are required at start of tenancy. It's abit silly as when we first give the documents it doesn't say you need get proof of giving these but when the time comes too court you need proof that these were given too tenants.



Being a landlord is not easy. In fact it can be a complete nightmare. Evicting tenants is always difficult and expensive. You may need to provide the documents afresh and get a receipt from the tenants. You may need to issue a fresh Section 21 afterwards. It may be a good idea to do a full walk through practise of the eviction process to prepare yourself for all possible pitfalls. Remember, even if you do get a Possession Order it does not mean your tenants will leave. Be prepared to issue an Eviction Order and if necessary employ bailiffs.
Willy_Wonka10/01/2020 22:42

One way or another you have to go to court. Do it now & stop delaying it …One way or another you have to go to court. Do it now & stop delaying it OR are you going to let them stay in your property for the rest of your life because you cannot prove you gave them a piece of paper?I have the feeling you are taking the mick & this is a troll post. Just go to court & do the court forms on monday & pay the fee. The longer you leave it the more it will cost you regardless of whatever else can happen.Oh & when you do the court forms carry on with the eviction under section 21. DO NOT GO TO COURT FOR MISSING RENT. You can go after them for missing rent when they are out of your property.


No I am not but thanks for your help and encouragement.
tardytortoise10/01/2020 22:45

Being a landlord is not easy. In fact it can be a complete nightmare. …Being a landlord is not easy. In fact it can be a complete nightmare. Evicting tenants is always difficult and expensive. You may need to provide the documents afresh and get a receipt from the tenants. You may need to issue a fresh Section 21 afterwards. It may be a good idea to do a full walk through practise of the eviction process to prepare yourself for all possible pitfalls. Remember, even if you do get a Possession Order it does not mean your tenants will leave. Be prepared to issue an Eviction Order and if necessary employ bailiffs.


Sorry don't follow how can I do a full practice eviction process. Do.you mean shall I take them too court and if it fails they will give me the reason I can then try again.
MynameisM10/01/2020 22:28

...as they wanted too move too a council property but they wanted me too …...as they wanted too move too a council property but they wanted me too say there are problems with the property and I need them too move out.


Sounds like the tenants may actually want you to have them evicted, as they may believe that eviction/homelessness might bump them up the council housing priority list.
OK, think about it from the tenants point of view. The council won't home them of they are adequately houses. If they leave, they make themselves homeless and the council won't help them. They want a council property. If you go through the possession route you will actually be helping them. They will 'fight' it - they have to or they make themselves homeless, but you will win possession.
I'd suggest going and having a chat with them, see if I'm correct, I'm sure I am.
I was in their position around 30 years ago. In a house that went with the job, and I got made redundant. He took me to court for possession of the house. I turned up at court - which caused some consternation as tenants never turn up at court and explained why I hadn't vacated (2 babies, council unable to help until we were homeless) they gave possession order and dated it for four 4 weeks to give the council time to accommodate us. We left in 3 weeks after being housed, left the place in good order and on great terms with the landlord (other than my being peeved at being made redundant).

The tenants aren't always a holes, they are often victims of circumstances.
Edited by: "Ringfinger" 10th Jan
AndyRoyd10/01/2020 22:50

Sounds like the tenants may actually want you to have them evicted, as …Sounds like the tenants may actually want you to have them evicted, as they may believe that eviction/homelessness might bump them up the council housing priority list.


Yes they do but they are but weird in that regard they won't agree that we have already gave them the documents and won't sign any paperwork they haven't signed for the section 21 notice but we got a letter from the council about this so that is proof that we served it too them.
If as you say the s.21 notice has been completed correctly and served on the tenants and that you have given the necessary documents then it should be okay. You have not mentioned if a licence is required for the property. If so, this information will need to be completed as part of the claim form.

If they complained about disrepair and/or you served the s.21 after the council have been involved with the alleged disrepair then proceed with caution as the s.21 could be invalid.

Generally if all is in order, you need to complete the Form N5b for accelerated possession. I would suggest you read through this form and ensure you meet the information required that is needed to ensure you have a successful eviction of tenants. It appears only once the bailiffs have been instructed and are at the door the tenants they will leave, simply to get the council house they require as the council are unwilling to help until then.

Disclaimer: Do not rely on this information, seek professional legal advice.

Good luck
Ringfinger10/01/2020 22:52

OK, think about it from the tenants point of view. The council won't home …OK, think about it from the tenants point of view. The council won't home them of they are adequately houses. If they leave, they make themselves homeless and the council won't help them. They want a council property. If you go through the possession route you will actually be helping them. They will 'fight' it - they have to or they make themselves homeless, but you will win possession.I'd suggest going and having a chat with them, see if I'm correct, I'm sure I am.I was in their position around 30 years ago. In a house that went with the job, and I got made redundant. He took me to court for possession of the house. I turned up at court - which caused some consternation as tenants never turn up at court and explained why I hadn't vacated (2 babies, council unable to help until we were homeless) they gave possession order and dated it for four 4 weeks to give the council time to accommodate us. We left in 3 weeks after being housed, left the place in good order and on great terms with the landlord (other than my being peeved at being made redundant).The tenants aren't always a holes, they are often victims of circumstances.


One of the person in family has difficulty with going upstairs but the council won't give them a property and they want us too get them a council property we can't give them a council house they won't sign any paperwork thinking we are trying too scam them or something I really don't understand them just they are causing us alot of headaches and problems. They could move too a private bungalow but they won't ok the rent is a bit more than what they were paying us but only reason is we haven't put it up for 3 years and bungalows are expensive and you don't find 4 bedrooms so I think that's why council won't give them a property either.
MynameisM10/01/2020 22:48

Sorry don't follow how can I do a full practice eviction process. Do.you …Sorry don't follow how can I do a full practice eviction process. Do.you mean shall I take them too court and if it fails they will give me the reason I can then try again.



Sorry, should have been clearer. What I mean is do a pretend practice paperwork only walk through exercise from the section 21 notice right through to potential bailiff action. Don't involve the courts. You do this so you can know in advance all the potential pitfalls, cost and time involved and so you know what to do and when.
BTW if they are not paying rent you can now issue a Section 8 notice.
Butterfly1810/01/2020 22:57

If as you say the s.21 notice has been completed correctly and served on …If as you say the s.21 notice has been completed correctly and served on the tenants and that you have given the necessary documents then it should be okay. You have not mentioned if a licence is required for the property. If so, this information will need to be completed as part of the claim form. If they complained about disrepair and/or you served the s.21 after the council have been involved with the alleged disrepair then proceed with caution as the s.21 could be invalid.Generally if all is in order, you need to complete the Form N5b for accelerated possession. I would suggest you read through this form and ensure you meet the information required that is needed to ensure you have a successful eviction of tenants. It appears only once the bailiffs have been instructed and are at the door the tenants they will leave, simply to get the council house they require as the council are unwilling to help until then. Disclaimer: Do not rely on this information, seek professional legal advice. Good luck


That's the problem we don't have a signature from the tenants that proves we gave them epc and a tenants guide too renting and they won't sign anything too accept they have these documents. So I am thinking the court would fail our application too get property back.
Gonna save this thread - some really good advice & links given.

I finally got rid of my tenant just before Christmas. Worst 6 months prior to that, headache. A very costly expensive headache not to mention extremely difficult to get her out of my property. The everyday hassle that woman put me and my family through.. I shall never forget what I had to go through.

Stressful days and sleepless nights. Paying a buy-to-let mortgage but received zero rent.

The day she moved out, I celebrated no end! Learnt a lot of valuable lessons along the way.

Also a lot of great people on HUKD really helped me out no end with their advice, truly appreciated it.

I wish you all the very best in your situation.
All the best.
They do not have to sign a Section 21 notice.
If you want to give the council proof then just write a recorded delivery letter to the tenants stating "please find enclosed copy of section 21 notice served on you on such & such a date that you refused to acknowledge". Then go to 2 different Post Offices send the exact same thing but just sending 1st Class Royal Mail BUT get proof of postage (that costs nothing other than a 1st Class stamp) & they will give you a receipt for each of the two letters.

No one can then deny that they haven't had receipt. If the council wants proof of section 21 then the tenants must have contacted the council of their impending eviction, so that is another nail in the coffin of denying receipt of a section 21 notice.


PS Have you checked your Landlords Insurance to see if it covers legal expenses & loss of rent?
Edited by: "Willy_Wonka" 10th Jan
Hennah10/01/2020 23:01

Gonna save this thread - some really good advice & links given. I finally …Gonna save this thread - some really good advice & links given. I finally got rid of my tenant just before Christmas. Worst 6 months prior to that, headache. A very costly expensive headache not to mention extremely difficult to get her out of my property. The everyday hassle that woman put me and my family through.. I shall never forget what I had to go through. Stressful days and sleepless nights. Paying a buy-to-let mortgage but received zero rent. The day she moved out, I celebrated no end! Learnt a lot of valuable lessons along the way. Also a lot of great people on HUKD really helped me out no end with their advice, truly appreciated it. I wish you all the very best in your situation.All the best.


How did you get them out was it through courts or so e other means.
Willy_Wonka10/01/2020 23:07

They do not have to sign a Section 21 notice. If you want to give the …They do not have to sign a Section 21 notice. If you want to give the council proof then just write a recorded delivery letter to the tenants stating "please find enclosed copy of section 21 notice served on you on such & such a date that you refused to acknowledge". Then go to 2 different Post Offices send the exact same thing but just sending 1st Class Royal Mail BUT get proof of postage (that costs nothing other than a 1st Class stamp) & they will give you a receipt for each of the two letters. No one can then deny that they haven't had receipt. If the council wants proof of section 21 then the tenants must have contacted the council of their impending eviction, so that is another nail in the coffin of denying receipt of a section 21 notice.PS Have you checked your Landlords Insurance to see if it covers legal expenses & loss of rent?


They can't deny the notice as already received a letter from council that acknowledgees this, they just don't accept that's EPC and a guide to renting was given too them at the beginning I tried too explain that if they sign a paper saying they received these copies then the court will rule in favour and they can be evicted but they say we done remember you gave us these papers.
MynameisM10/01/2020 23:01

That's the problem we don't have a signature from the tenants that proves …That's the problem we don't have a signature from the tenants that proves we gave them epc and a tenants guide too renting and they won't sign anything too accept they have these documents. So I am thinking the court would fail our application too get property back.


Ideally you should have got the tenants to sign but as you said you have not. It does not necessarily mean the claim will fail. There is also the possibility the tenants may not say otherwise.

I would assume you have corroborative evidence that the gas safety certificate/ EPC etc was available at the time the AST was given. The judge maybe more inclined to believe you than the tenant. The fact that you are so concerned about this makes me think perhaps you had not given this. As I said if your not comfortable with issuing the claim etc seek legal advice.
MynameisM10/01/2020 23:14

They can't deny the notice as already received a letter from council that …They can't deny the notice as already received a letter from council that acknowledgees this, they just don't accept that's EPC and a guide to renting was given too them at the beginning I tried too explain that if they sign a paper saying they received these copies then the court will rule in favour and they can be evicted but they say we done remember you gave us these papers.



SO I am getting this right?

The council are asking you to prove you supplied these documents? And when did they move in?
Edited by: "Willy_Wonka" 10th Jan
AndyRoyd10/01/2020 22:50

Sounds like the tenants may actually want you to have them evicted, as …Sounds like the tenants may actually want you to have them evicted, as they may believe that eviction/homelessness might bump them up the council housing priority list.


The way it works is as follows:

If the present tenants leave the property under their own free will and present themselves to their local council for a council property they will have been deemed to have made themselves intentionally homeless and will not necessarily be offered a property.

On the other hand if they are in possession of an eviction order their local council are legally obliged to find them accommodation.


I know someone that lived with a child on the London Underground system for at least 10 days (I lost contact with them after that time) because they left a property they were renting without knowing the correct procedure to be applicable for a council property.

You can be rest assured the tenants have been advised not to vacate the property until they have an eviction order to present to their local housing department and the seemingly unwillingness to sign any further papers now may not have any sinister undertones but could be the fear of the unkown


The tenants have no say in the eviction order. If I were the OP I would just supply all paperwork required and let the Judge decide what bearing the missing signature has in the case
Edited by: "OllieSt" 10th Jan
Willy_Wonka10/01/2020 23:38

SO I am getting this right?The council are asking you to prove you …SO I am getting this right?The council are asking you to prove you supplied these documents? And when did they move in?


I believe the OP is referring to the tenants not the council.
I’m no expert but I’ve just taken a friend of mine to the council as she was issued with a section 21. Gave it to them and they have said do not leave the property. They said to ring the landlord and he has to take it straight to court. Until then she is not to leave the property as they won’t help. It seems from this your tenants want a council property. Take them to court they will be happy you are doing so as they get what they want
OllieSt10/01/2020 23:42

The way it works is as follows:If the present tenants leave the property …The way it works is as follows:If the present tenants leave the property under their own free will and present themselves to their local council for a council property they will have been deemed to have made themselves intentionally homeless and will not necessarily be offered a property. On the other hand if they are in possession of an eviction order their local council are legally obliged to find them accommodation.I know someone that lived with a child on the London Underground system for at least 10 days (I lost contact with them after that time) because they left a property they were renting without knowing the correct procedure to be applicable for a council property.You can be rest assured the tenants have been advised not to vacate the property until they have an eviction order to present to their local housing department and the seemingly unwillingness to sign any further papers now may not have any sinister undertones but could be the fear of the unkownThe tenants have no say in the eviction order. If I were the OP I would just supply all paperwork required and let the Judge decide what bearing the missing signature has in the case


Even Shelter advice is not to move out voluntary.
We used Fast Track Evictions on line.
They sorted everything out for us without hassle wish we had gone straight to them.
They serve our tenants the next day.
We didn't get our tenants to sign they had copies of gas electricity certificates either.
I didn't even know you were supposed to do that.
Butterfly1810/01/2020 23:45

I believe the OP is referring to the tenants not the council.


Correct council just sent me a letter asking if they have genuinely received the notice plus questions like do they pay rent on time etc and they had at the time. But not heard anything back from council, yes we got the EPC as it was done previously so there is proof it was done before not after tenants moved in and also luckily have kept our copy of gas Safety certificate even though don't usually keep for more than 2 years plus current one expires in April.
anthea11/01/2020 00:36

We used Fast Track Evictions on line.They sorted everything out for us …We used Fast Track Evictions on line.They sorted everything out for us without hassle wish we had gone straight to them. They serve our tenants the next day. We didn't get our tenants to sign they had copies of gas electricity certificates either. I didn't even know you were supposed to do that.


Is it this website, fasttrackevictions.co.uk/?gc…BwE
MynameisM11/01/2020 00:58

Is it this website, …Is it this website, http://www.fasttrackevictions.co.uk/?gclid=CjwKCAiA3uDwBRBFEiwA1VsajLBhch2Ej7HaruILec6XgsR7SGRRZzKQrgngixvhuMHhukPzQuC4UBoCtnUQAvD_BwE



If you use any company get them to accept you have already served section 21. Else you are back to day one. You have proof from the council they have been served it.
Interesting read at a time when one of my friends have been served a section 21 notice from their landlord after he raised the issue of nuisance from the noisy neighbors downstairs. He has been complaining to the landlord to resolve the issue for more than two years without any resolution. And just two weeks ago he spoke with the landlord and asked him to speak with the tenants to behave for good. What he did not expect was; a section 21 notice has been served to him instead as the noisy tenants along with other neighbors seem to have made a pact against his family and complained to the landlord for the very first time. And it seems that the landlord was waiting for this moment and straightaway issued the notice to the poor fellow.

So I agree with some of the comments stated above. Not all tenants are bad, quite a few times it is the complete opposite. Landlords are equally to be blamed for these disputes.

I am definitely subscribing to this thread.
addy201311/01/2020 01:29

Interesting read at a time when one of my friends have been served a …Interesting read at a time when one of my friends have been served a section 21 notice from their landlord after he raised the issue of nuisance from the noisy neighbors downstairs. He has been complaining to the landlord to resolve the issue for more than two years without any resolution. And just two weeks ago he spoke with the landlord and asked him to speak with the tenants to behave for good. What he did not expect was; a section 21 notice has been served to him instead as the noisy tenants along with other neighbors seem to have made a pact against his family and complained to the landlord for the very first time. And it seems that the landlord was waiting for this moment and straightaway issued the notice to the poor fellow.So I agree with some of the comments stated above. Not all tenants are bad, quite a few times it is the complete opposite. Landlords are equally to be blamed for these disputes. I am definitely subscribing to this thread.


And precisely what (in real terms) is a landlord able to do about noisy neighbours ? The only noisy neighbours a landlord can do anything about are his/her tenants by seeking to Recover Possession (Eviction has nothing to do with it).

Been there. Done that. It takes the best part of a year and all you can hope is that the rent is paid.
The issues above is why we have used an agent now to look after our property, it’s expensive, working out at 16.1% of the rental figure a month, but it covers everything, including non payment and the eviction process.
Ringfinger10/01/2020 22:52

OK, think about it from the tenants point of view. The council won't home …OK, think about it from the tenants point of view. The council won't home them of they are adequately houses. If they leave, they make themselves homeless and the council won't help them. They want a council property. If you go through the possession route you will actually be helping them. They will 'fight' it - they have to or they make themselves homeless, but you will win possession.I'd suggest going and having a chat with them, see if I'm correct, I'm sure I am.I was in their position around 30 years ago. In a house that went with the job, and I got made redundant. He took me to court for possession of the house. I turned up at court - which caused some consternation as tenants never turn up at court and explained why I hadn't vacated (2 babies, council unable to help until we were homeless) they gave possession order and dated it for four 4 weeks to give the council time to accommodate us. We left in 3 weeks after being housed, left the place in good order and on great terms with the landlord (other than my being peeved at being made redundant).The tenants aren't always a holes, they are often victims of circumstances.


Don't make your problems other people's problems. My uncle had tenants that wouldn't leave for 2 years, it took over 8k excluding loss of rent, a heart attack, depression and then they repossesed the house all because of those nasty people.
parisp11/01/2020 00:27

I’m no expert but I’ve just taken a friend of mine to the council as she wa …I’m no expert but I’ve just taken a friend of mine to the council as she was issued with a section 21. Gave it to them and they have said do not leave the property. They said to ring the landlord and he has to take it straight to court. Until then she is not to leave the property as they won’t help. It seems from this your tenants want a council property. Take them to court they will be happy you are doing so as they get what they want

I'm not suprised because it saves the council money the longer they don't have to deal with them.
you can start a section 8 eviction notice, which will also recover lost rent. my husband had to do this to evict a tenant as he lost the blooming contract! it was very stressful as he also was given a false identity by the tenant and so never knew her real identity. you couldn't get it any more wrong than this.

but when it went to court, the judge granted eviction and awarded all the lost rent and damages, so he got all the money back and more as he was also awarded interest on the money owed. he was also awarded costs for his expenses attending court hearings. however his tenant had money and she didn't pay the rent because she was buying a flat. if your tenants do not have money to pay you then it is harder to get the money back from them.
Edited by: "mutley1" 11th Jan
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