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    BBC News: Brexit: Legal battle over UK's single market membership

    I'm surprised none of the Remainers on here have jumped on this yet.

    Looks like more clutching at straws.

    Top comments

    Original Poster

    My experience of dealing with lawyers (admittedly commercial laywers not constitutional ones) are that they are very good at coming up with an argument which benefits those who they are working for.
    326 Comments

    Original Poster

    My experience of dealing with lawyers (admittedly commercial laywers not constitutional ones) are that they are very good at coming up with an argument which benefits those who they are working for.

    that's all it is, clutching at straws.
    like Gina wanting to promote her firm, understandable for her, everyone knows her now.
    don't know what the brazilian hairdresser was thinking but I bet he regrets it now, he most probably thought he would be the next Vidal if he took the UK government to court on a technicality.

    colin4man

    My experience of dealing with lawyers (admittedly commercial laywers not … My experience of dealing with lawyers (admittedly commercial laywers not constitutional ones) are that they are very good at coming up with an argument which benefits those who they are working for.


    Lawyers write law hence they write it in such a way as to ensure that there can be more than one interpretation of the statute. This ensures that there will always be work for lawyers in arguing over what the statute means and rewriting it when it proves to mean something the government didn't want it to. In much the same way, no lawyer is going to write a watertight contract as, if they did, they would eventually put hundreds of thousands of lawyers out of work.

    The problem with brexiters is that they don't seem to want to accept that the overwhelming majority of politicians don't want to leave the EU. Aside from the (very) few far right wingers and the carpetbaggers like Johnson and Gove in the Tory party and a few nonetities in Labour, there is little support for Brexit in Parliament.

    And, unless you are incredibly naive, you can't really believe that a Prime Minister who was a Remainer genuinely means it when she says 'Brexit means Brexit'. She's just praying for a way to water Brexit down so far that, even if it did happen, the only change would be that we no longer elected MEPs.

    RonChew

    Lawyers write law hence they write it in such a way as to ensure that … Lawyers write law hence they write it in such a way as to ensure that there can be more than one interpretation of the statute. This ensures that there will always be work for lawyers in arguing over what the statute means and rewriting it when it proves to mean something the government didn't want it to. In much the same way, no lawyer is going to write a watertight contract as, if they did, they would eventually put hundreds of thousands of lawyers out of work.The problem with brexiters is that they don't seem to want to accept that the overwhelming majority of politicians don't want to leave the EU. Aside from the (very) few far right wingers and the carpetbaggers like Johnson and Gove in the Tory party and a few nonetities in Labour, there is little support for Brexit in Parliament. And, unless you are incredibly naive, you can't really believe that a Prime Minister who was a Remainer genuinely means it when she says 'Brexit means Brexit'. She's just praying for a way to water Brexit down so far that, even if it did happen, the only change would be that we no longer elected MEPs.



    ​well done, keep trying for them straws Ron,
    unfortunately your not even close to clutching them.

    RonChew

    Lawyers write law hence they write it in such a way as to ensure that … Lawyers write law hence they write it in such a way as to ensure that there can be more than one interpretation of the statute. This ensures that there will always be work for lawyers in arguing over what the statute means and rewriting it when it proves to mean something the government didn't want it to. In much the same way, no lawyer is going to write a watertight contract as, if they did, they would eventually put hundreds of thousands of lawyers out of work.The problem with brexiters is that they don't seem to want to accept that the overwhelming majority of politicians don't want to leave the EU. Aside from the (very) few far right wingers and the carpetbaggers like Johnson and Gove in the Tory party and a few nonetities in Labour, there is little support for Brexit in Parliament. And, unless you are incredibly naive, you can't really believe that a Prime Minister who was a Remainer genuinely means it when she says 'Brexit means Brexit'. She's just praying for a way to water Brexit down so far that, even if it did happen, the only change would be that we no longer elected MEPs.




    There's a fundamental point I think brexiters consistently miss.

    They say that for too long they've been ignored, forgotten by an elite.

    Yet they think now they won't be ignored and why? Because of a vote.


    A vote X). X)

    The world changed and people didn't get a vote because it was decided for you. What on earth do people think has changed in the last six months? A cross on a bit of paper??

    That's not how things are changed. Tories, Labour, yes, no, Trump, Clinton....it's all the same.

    The sooner people stop trying to change the rules of the game and start trying to win at the game, the happier they'll be.

    shadey12

    ​well done, keep trying for them straws Ron,unfortunately your not even c … ​well done, keep trying for them straws Ron,unfortunately your not even close to clutching them.


    I'm not unduly bothered one way or the other about Brexit as it will not affect me or my family greatly. I just feel sorry for the deluded Brexiters who keep their heads buried in the sand so that they can't see how the politicians are shafting them.

    RonChew

    I'm not unduly bothered one way or the other about Brexit as it will not … I'm not unduly bothered one way or the other about Brexit as it will not affect me or my family greatly. I just feel sorry for the deluded Brexiters who keep their heads buried in the sand so that they can't see how the politicians are shafting them.



    ​that's one thing we have in common, for me personally I will financially be worse off leaving the the EU, however I try to think of the future of the country as a whole,
    there is more to life than personal wealth.

    shadey12

    ​that's one thing we have in common, for me personally I will financially … ​that's one thing we have in common, for me personally I will financially be worse off leaving the the EU, however I try to think of the future of the country as a whole, there is more to life than personal wealth.



    Why would you be worse off?

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    Why would you be worse off?



    ​lots of reasons, none of which I am going to share with you.

    shadey12

    ​lots of reasons, none of which I am going to share with you.



    Why?

    My point is that yo talk about people being self-centred and caring only about their bubbles but you simply fail to see the link between the individual and society.

    Say for instance that one of the reasons you'd worse off was because your company was going to see income fall. Now that's bad for you but it's also bad for the exchequer because you could end up contributing less in taxes (both personal and corporate). So you're personal issues now have a knock-on effect for the rest of society - taxes fall which mean public spending needs to decrease (because we can't raise taxes when we need to keep companies flowing into the country).

    Schools, the NHS etc. all start having their budgets cut.

    Or maybe you take another route and cut your spending. Maybe you lay someone off. Now he's not only struggling, but he's also not paying as much in tax (income and VAT because he cuts spending too) and he might even need JSA or some other benefit.

    Now not only is that person not contributing as much, they're also depending on the government to give them more too.

    You have this binary way of thinking where someone either agrees with you or they're self-centred and focussed only on themselves. What you completely ignore is that link between the individual and society and how they need to work in tandem.

    "A government spokesman said: "As the UK is party to the EEA Agreement only in its capacity as an EU Member State, once we leave the European Union we will automatically cease to be a member of the EEA."
    Conservative MP and Brexiteer Dominic Raab said: "Rather than coming up with new legal wheezes to try and frustrate the will of the people, these lawyers should be working with us to make a success of Brexit.
    "The public have spoken; we should respect the result and get on with it, not try to find new hurdles that undermine the democratic process."".

    I have never seen so many tears, What utter vile undemocratic pigs.

    You can't ignore the will of the people, law or no law they should have thought about that before they offered us a Brexit = Brexit vote. Remember they voted 6/1 in favour.

    Now the lengths the remoaners are going to try and halt Brexit is ridiculous, Why can't you just respect the will of the people?.

    You expect them to honour the will of the people, It is as simple as that.

    Civil war will happen otherwise, like I have said before I'll march down there myself if I have too and I certainly wouldn't be the only one.!.

    shauneco

    Civil war will happen otherwise, like I have said before I'll march down … Civil war will happen otherwise, like I have said before I'll march down there myself if I have too and I certainly wouldn't be the only one.!.



    No you won't. You simply aren't the type.

    Those who hold the power in this country will dictate the terms on which we go through all of this, not some mob on a day trip down to the capital with some poorly-written placards.

    If you had the power to change things then you would've already done it. The most you could do was put a cross on a ballot paper and that's not how you effect real change in a country.

    We're going to do what we have done for the past five decades - get the best deal for this country.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    No you won't. You simply aren't the type.Those who hold the power in this … No you won't. You simply aren't the type.Those who hold the power in this country will dictate the terms on which we go through all of this, not some mob on a day trip down to the capital with some poorly-written placards. If you had the power to change things then you would've already done it. The most you could do was put a cross on a ballot paper and that's not how you effect real change in a country. We're going to do what we have done for the past five decades - get the best deal for this country.



    The best deal is to Brexit according to 17m voters.

    If war did break out, which it could then which City do you think would be targeted first?.

    I think what you should do is embrace the change coming with Brexit, The alternative doesn't bare thinking about really.

    shauneco

    Civil war will happen otherwise, like I have said before I'll march down … Civil war will happen otherwise, like I have said before I'll march down there myself if I have too and I certainly wouldn't be the only one.!.



    Yeah, right.

    dtovey89

    Yeah, right.



    So do you think 17m+ voters will just accept it?.

    shauneco

    So do you think 17m+ voters will just accept it?.



    No.

    But I don't think you'll personally march to London. Even if you did what would you do?
    The vast majority of London voted in so if there was a mass riot/protest in the Capital then the locals would no doubt counter your march.

    You talk a big game but you've never bothered to move to establish a career so why would you bother making the effort to march down now?

    dtovey89

    No. But I don't think you'll personally march to London. Even if you did … No. But I don't think you'll personally march to London. Even if you did what would you do?The vast majority of London voted in so if there was a mass riot/protest in the Capital then the locals would no doubt counter your march.You talk a big game but you've never bothered to move to establish a career so why would you bother making the effort to march down now?



    Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would cause a lot of problems. You simply cannot ignore 17m+ voters. I would 100% join a protest march and obviously I wouldn't be the only one, It would probably be the biggest protest in history.

    It would most certainly cause political unrest for decades, majority of people don't trust their MP's as it is, go against the will of the people and it isn't going to end well.

    shauneco

    Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would … Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would cause a lot of problems. You simply cannot ignore 17m+ voters. I would 100% join a protest march and obviously I wouldn't be the only one, It would probably be the biggest protest in history. It would most certainly cause political unrest for decades, majority of people don't trust their MP's as it is, go against the will of the people and it isn't going to end well.



    So it's gone from riots and war to political unrest and a protest march already??

    You've proven our point - you're simply not the type to make change happen. If you coulda, you woulda.

    shauneco

    Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would … Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would cause a lot of problems. You simply cannot ignore 17m+ voters. I would 100% join a protest march and obviously I wouldn't be the only one, It would probably be the biggest protest in history. It would most certainly cause political unrest for decades, majority of people don't trust their MP's as it is, go against the will of the people and it isn't going to end well.



    I bet there would be less than the number of people who protested against the War in Iraq in 2003.
    That was 1M. I doubt it would even hit in the tens of thousands.

    shauneco

    Because I care for democracy



    Clearly not.
    Please explain your view on the concept of Parliamentary Democracy.

    As said before - you asked for British law upheld by British Judges in British Courts. The High Court ruling was exactly that. Surely you want your elected representative to have some involvement in the Brexit negotiations/process. Surely?

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    So it's gone from riots and war to political unrest and a protest march … So it's gone from riots and war to political unrest and a protest march already??You've proven our point - you're simply not the type to make change happen. If you coulda, you woulda.



    There is nothing to protest about atm, Brexit as far as we're concerned is happening, You should embrace it as we all should.

    Come on you weren't that deluded to think I could have been serious?.

    Realistically if Brexit didn't happen then there would be protests/riots ( I wouldn't riot, only protest ). You would then risk chaos with right wing parties getting elected etc.. Even I would be reluctant to vote for parties like UKIP for example, I'm just not sure what their policies are outside of the EU. I think other parties could form and it would bring political unrest. Already we're seeing great divides between Brexiters and remoaners. Whatever happens it might not be pretty.

    dtovey89

    Clearly not. Please explain your view on the concept of Parliamentary … Clearly not. Please explain your view on the concept of Parliamentary Democracy.As said before - you asked for British law upheld by British Judges in British Courts. The High Court ruling was exactly that. Surely you want your elected representative to have some involvement in the Brexit negotiations/process. Surely?



    Honestly, If they had suggested that before the vote it would be acceptable and I think even more people would actually have voted leave. But it wasn't presented like that, the referendum had already been run through parliament and they voted 6/1 in favour of Brexit means Brexit.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    The sooner people stop trying to change the rules of the game and start … The sooner people stop trying to change the rules of the game and start trying to win at the game, the happier they'll be.


    Sad, but in this selfish machivellian society, probably true.

    shauneco

    There is nothing to protest about atm, Brexit as far as we're concerned … There is nothing to protest about atm, Brexit as far as we're concerned is happening, You should embrace it as we all should.Come on you weren't that deluded to think I could have been serious?. Realistically if Brexit didn't happen then there would be protests/riots ( I wouldn't riot, only protest ). You would then risk chaos with right wing parties getting elected etc.. Even I would be reluctant to vote for parties like UKIP for example, I'm just not sure what their policies are outside of the EU. I think other parties could form and it would bring political unrest. Already we're seeing great divides between Brexiters and remoaners. Whatever happens it might not be pretty.



    There is a divide I absolutely agree, but you need to look at who is on either side of the divide.

    Find a Brexit map of Britain and look at the areas that voted remain, or where it was close. They're the cities, the metropolitan areas, the areas of the country that have business and wealth.

    They're the areas of the country that hold the most power.

    Look at London - Hammersmith and Fuham, Kensington and Chelsea, Lewisham, Lambeth, Wandsworth and Westminster all around 70-30.

    Then look around the country - Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, Cambridge, Cardiff, Oxford all voted to remain.

    You have to recognise that power isn't held by the majority - it's held by the powerful.

    shauneco

    Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would … Because I care for democracy, ok it wouldn't be civil war but it would cause a lot of problems. You simply cannot ignore 17m+ voters. I would 100% join a protest march and obviously I wouldn't be the only one, It would probably be the biggest protest in history. It would most certainly cause political unrest for decades, majority of people don't trust their MP's as it is, go against the will of the people and it isn't going to end well.


    Millions took part in march against war with Iraq - didn't make slightest bit of difference - politicians completely ignored it and went ahead with their own plans.

    Like it or lump it, Shaun, the establishment doesn't really give a crap what joepublic thinks - Heawd is right in saying they've got all the power and we've got nowt.
    Edited by: "tryn2help" 8th Dec 2016

    Bit of news.

    UKIP. Paul Nuttall has been elected as the party's new leader

    "Paul Nuttall says Ukip will 'replace Labour' after succeeding Nigel Farage as party's new leader"

    His victory came as a new analysis by the House of Commons revealed the party could kill Labour in 13 seats if just one in 50 voters switch allegiance to Ukip.


    telegraph.co.uk/new…ws/

    shasnir

    "Paul Nuttall says Ukip will 'replace Labour' after succeeding Nigel … "Paul Nuttall says Ukip will 'replace Labour' after succeeding Nigel Farage as party's new leader"



    UKIP are redundant

    dtovey89

    UKIP are redundant



    Yer I bet the same people who believe that also thought Remain would win the Referendum.

    dtovey89

    UKIP are redundant



    I think they could pivot and still be relevant as a party for the disenfranchised voters looking to air their grievances against the establishment, political correctness, etc. A bit like the Tea Party in America.

    Nuttall is a bloke who moans about PC, wants the death penalty back, thinks we should vote on abortion and objects to the EU - he's basically a tabloid in human form so he'll attract a certain type of voter who seems to be spreading like a weed.

    After decades of progressive politics, we're seeing a reaction and it's voice seems to be growing.

    shasnir

    Yer I bet the same people who believe that also thought Remain would win … Yer I bet the same people who believe that also thought Remain would win the Referendum.



    Apparently Brexit means Brexit so UKIP have served their purpose.

    They've also managed to secure a whole single seat in Parliament.
    UKIP will never replace Labour. Look at the UKIP results:

    Nuttall won 62.6% of support among party members - 9,622 votes.
    UKIP are a Party where under 10,000 Membership votes wins you over 60%. Compare that to Labour's recent leadership election results and you'll see what I mean by UKIP being redundant. Labour have the highest Membership out of any party in Europe. UKIP have less members than the capacity of Football League 2 stadiums.
    Edited by: "DT89" 28th Nov 2016

    shasnir

    Bit of news.UKIP. Paul Nuttall has been elected as the party's new … Bit of news.UKIP. Paul Nuttall has been elected as the party's new leader"Paul Nuttall says Ukip will 'replace Labour' after succeeding Nigel Farage as party's new leader"His victory came as a new analysis by the House of Commons revealed the party could kill Labour in 13 seats if just one in 50 voters switch allegiance to Ukip.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/28/paul-nuttall-elected-new-ukip-leader-nigel-farage-finally-bows/


    Try to see the bigger picture.

    This push to oust Labour is coming more from Conservative supporting newspaper owners than anywhere else.

    The great wet dream of every tory is to utterly wipe the Labour party off the face of the Earth.

    If it's possible to replace them with a bunch of easily controlled pseudo-conservatives then that's a bonus.







    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    There is a divide I absolutely agree, but you need to look at who is on … There is a divide I absolutely agree, but you need to look at who is on either side of the divide.Find a Brexit map of Britain and look at the areas that voted remain, or where it was close. They're the cities, the metropolitan areas, the areas of the country that have business and wealth.They're the areas of the country that hold the most power. Look at London - Hammersmith and Fuham, Kensington and Chelsea, Lewisham, Lambeth, Wandsworth and Westminster all around 70-30.Then look around the country - Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, Cambridge, Cardiff, Oxford all voted to remain.You have to recognise that power isn't held by the majority - it's held by the powerful.



    Which is one of the many problems regardless of the EU, The power should be shared equally.

    tryn2help

    Millions took part in march against war with Iraq - didn't make slightest … Millions took part in march against war with Iraq - didn't make slightest bit of difference - politicians completely ignored it and went ahead with their own plans.Like it or lump it, Shaun, the establishment doesn't really give a crap what joepublic thinks - Hehaw is right in saying they've got all the power and we've got nowt.



    It would be reflected in general elections in years to come, Right now there isn't an electable party imo. You're damned whoever you vote for unless you vote for the alternatives.

    shauneco

    Which is one of the many problems regardless of the EU, The power should … Which is one of the many problems regardless of the EU, The power should be shared equally.



    No it shouldn't. There's a reason why certain places control more wealth and power. You don't just change that.

    It's the same with things like job opportunities that we spoke about last. There is no burden on those who control these things to apportion them evenly. That's just not how economies work.


    dtovey89

    Apparently Brexit means Brexit so UKIP have served their purpose.They've … Apparently Brexit means Brexit so UKIP have served their purpose.They've also managed to secure a whole single seat in Parliament.UKIP will never replace Labour. Look at the UKIP results:Nuttall won 62.6% of support among party members - 9,622 votes.UKIP are a Party where under 10,000 Membership votes wins you over 60%. Compare that to Labour's recent leadership election results and you'll see what I mean by UKIP being redundant. Labour have the highest Membership out of any party in Europe. UKIP have less members than the capacity of Football League 2 stadiums.



    ​look at the amount of labour members voting for Corbyn, if he is still leader at the next election you will see membership and votes mean nothing.

    shauneco

    It would be reflected in general elections in years to come, Right now … It would be reflected in general elections in years to come, Right now there isn't an electable party imo. You're damned whoever you vote for unless you vote for the alternatives.


    As I said; 'it's a wet dream' - emphasis on dream.

    Tories need a Labour party - it's very existence is one of the main reasons to vote Conservative, take that away and there's a very real danger peeps might vote for the psuedo-conservatives - something much more dangerous to the Conservative Party than Labour ever could be.

    In this country, Shaun, things have been run a certain way by a certain type for a very long time.
    There have been some temporary inconveniences along the way, but things have never been out of the control of that certain type.

    And, you're not damned, you're certainly stuck between a rock and a hard place, but you're not damned.
    Neither do you have to vote for the alternatives - that's often a bit like voting for a kick in the nuts instead of a punch in the face.

    colin4man

    My experience of dealing with lawyers (admittedly commercial laywers not … My experience of dealing with lawyers (admittedly commercial laywers not constitutional ones) are that they are very good at coming up with an argument which benefits those who they are working for.

    The problem with brexiters is that they don't seem to want to accept that … The problem with brexiters is that they don't seem to want to accept that the overwhelming majority of politicians don't want to leave the EU


    Haven't read all the thread yet but jut to pick up on the basics of your comment

    Who gives the politicians their job (in basic language who elects them)?
    And how many of these politicians (remoaners) are following what their electorate voted for?
    Now I may be wrong here but there seems to be a disproportionate number of politicians whose electorate voted for Brexit yet they (the politicians) are supporting Remain

    shauneco

    "A government spokesman said: "As the UK is party to the EEA Agreement … "A government spokesman said: "As the UK is party to the EEA Agreement only in its capacity as an EU Member State, once we leave the European Union we will automatically cease to be a member of the EEA."Conservative MP and Brexiteer Dominic Raab said: "Rather than coming up with new legal wheezes to try and frustrate the will of the people, these lawyers should be working with us to make a success of Brexit."The public have spoken; we should respect the result and get on with it, not try to find new hurdles that undermine the democratic process."".I have never seen so many tears, What utter vile undemocratic pigs.You can't ignore the will of the people, law or no law they should have thought about that before they offered us a Brexit = Brexit vote. Remember they voted 6/1 in favour. Now the lengths the remoaners are going to try and halt Brexit is ridiculous, Why can't you just respect the will of the people?. You expect them to honour the will of the people, It is as simple as that.Civil war will happen otherwise, like I have said before I'll march down there myself if I have too and I certainly wouldn't be the only one.!.



    Just ignore it all it's just more pretentious nonsense they haven't got a hope with this one, you have to remember that the majority ( Leave voters) have been told by the Prime Minister we will be invoking Article 50 in March and that to most people is good enough as the vote was to leave the EU and the single market and that is what will happen, anything else is just nonsense mainly by very rich backers on the losing Remainers side trying to tie the actual end result into the same thing (activating article 50) which won't happen, the vote was to leave the EU which will be activated in March, the conditions of leaving the EU will be thrashed out over the next to years.

    Theresa May appealing is a shot to nothing as Article 50 will be in invoked no matter what the Supreme court outcome.


    Edited by: "shasnir" 4th Dec 2016

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    There's a fundamental point I think brexiters consistently miss.They say … There's a fundamental point I think brexiters consistently miss.They say that for too long they've been ignored, forgotten by an elite.Yet they think now they won't be ignored and why? Because of a vote.A vote X). X)The world changed and people didn't get a vote because it was decided for you. What on earth do people think has changed in the last six months? A cross on a bit of paper??That's not how things are changed. Tories, Labour, yes, no, Trump, Clinton....it's all the same. The sooner people stop trying to change the rules of the game and start trying to win at the game, the happier they'll be.



    The game.. OF THRONES
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