Boiler help required.

37
Posted 24th Nov
The on/off button stopped working on the timer, it's a built in timer. It played up recently where sometimes it would work if you hold it down for long. But now it's completely stopped. Can't get central heating on. Hot water from taps working fine. Any suggestions? Thanks it's a biasi boiler.
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Buy a new timer
The solution is as simple as joining / bridging two connections; the fun will be identifying the correct two. I'd start with checking the boiler's manual, although if the controller is in a quick release mount the connections may be identified on the mount & exposed after controller removal. No GS qualification required for control mods, but leave well alone if not 100% confident in self ability.
I rather fear that bodging boiler controls might not impress an insurance company if there was to be a fire and claim.

I would be tempted to call Biasi support who may diagnose the problem over the phone (with a bucket full of caveats) and then shop here directheatingsupplies.co.uk

At least the weather is a bit warmer but no HW is no fun at all. Hopefully you have friendly neighbours. Makes a change from a cup of sugar
ding24/11/2019 15:09

Buy a new timer




AndyRoyd24/11/2019 15:17

The solution is as simple as joining / bridging two connections; the fun …The solution is as simple as joining / bridging two connections; the fun will be identifying the correct two. I'd start with checking the boiler's manual, although if the controller is in a quick release mount the connections may be identified on the mount & exposed after controller removal. No GS qualification required for control mods, but leave well alone if not 100% confident in self ability.



It's a built in timer on the boiler. I think it's a connection issue but not sure how to access behind that. Probably have to take the whole boiler apart. Going to have a look for the manual later. Thanks
i have this problem with my boiler, which is quite old so i think it may be time soon to get a new one. i don't know if the timer is faulty or the boiler but i think it is the timer. i find that you have to turn the boiler on and off a couple of times at the timer and boiler control dial before it would work again. i have been keeping an eye out for the hive deal as i am thinking of getting rid of the built in timer and adding hive control.
MR112324/11/2019 16:06

...Probably have to take the whole boiler apart.


Fortunately it is highly unlikely that any boiler disassembly will be required.
MR112324/11/2019 16:06

It's a built in timer on the boiler. I think it's a connection issue but …It's a built in timer on the boiler. I think it's a connection issue but not sure how to access behind that. Probably have to take the whole boiler apart. Going to have a look for the manual later. Thanks


Most boilers with integral timers (controllers) have provision for addition of an external controller, and it would then be a simple(?) case of identifying the two connections on the bolier that would accept the on/off signal from the wired controller, then manually bridge / open those connections as required. It's a gaspingly simple concept but will require a basic understanding of simple wiring diagrams.
mutley124/11/2019 16:48

i have this problem with my boiler, which is quite old so i think it may …i have this problem with my boiler, which is quite old so i think it may be time soon to get a new one. i don't know if the timer is faulty or the boiler but i think it is the timer. i find that you have to turn the boiler on and off a couple of times at the timer and boiler control dial before it would work again. i have been keeping an eye out for the hive deal as i am thinking of getting rid of the built in timer and adding hive control.


Yes that's how I use to start mine before that stopped working. Do you already have a separate connection which allows you to use hive i.e a thermostat. I don't have one and I don't know how to connect it as the main timer. Thanks
Is timer attached to the PCB? If so then get an expert in , may need to replace the PCB
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 17:01

Most boilers with integral timers (controllers) have provision for …Most boilers with integral timers (controllers) have provision for addition of an external controller, and it would then be a simple(?) case of identifying the two connections on the bolier that would accept the on/off signal from the wired controller, then manually bridge / open those connections as required. It's a gaspingly simple concept but will require a basic understanding of simple wiring diagrams.


39099051-bTBsI.jpg

How would I identify it though.
MR112324/11/2019 17:02

Yes that's how I use to start mine before that stopped working. Do you …Yes that's how I use to start mine before that stopped working. Do you already have a separate connection which allows you to use hive i.e a thermostat. I don't have one and I don't know how to connect it as the main timer. Thanks


these built in timers won't have a separate connection for a wall timer, which is needed for hive to work. i will have to pay someone to connect the hive.
MR112324/11/2019 17:07

[Image] How would I identify it though.


From the diagram in the boiler manual.
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 17:26

From the diagram in the boiler manual.


Thank you will need to find that manual first.
Edited by: "MR1123" 24th Nov
This may help..... diynot.com/diy…00/

If you have the same boiler it is connections 1 & 3 that need bridging, Don't do anything if not 100% sure. When you do this the boiler will run continuously (it will only stop firing when it's own thermostat is satisfied but the pump will run continuously) - so need some means to isolate the mains to it to switch it off.

This is only a temporary fix to get some heat into the house - you will need a permanent fix asap.
mutley124/11/2019 17:23

these built in timers won't have a separate connection for a wall timer...


Politely mutters: that is utter rubbish. Download the manual for this boiler and search for the phrase that Baisi uses of: "...External controls terminal block..."
MR112324/11/2019 17:38

Thank you will need to find that manual first.


That looks to me like one of the Riva M90 models. Maybe have a look at the manufacturer's handbook PDF for that model range at biasi.co.uk/ass…pdf
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 18:37

Politely mutters: that is utter rubbish. Download the manual for this …Politely mutters: that is utter rubbish. Download the manual for this boiler and search for the phrase that Baisi uses of: "...External controls terminal block..."


I've found it, looks a bit confusing the circuit part but should clear up once I get the bottom part of boiler open

39100737-BE3Sc.jpg

39100737-7lty8.jpg
Thank you for your help may need some more when I open it up please. I may even just buy the part if it's cheap. I'm 100% sure it's the wiring. Now just have to find out which part of the hive wire I need to put into the circuit.
Edited by: "MR1123" 24th Nov
Van197324/11/2019 17:54

This may help..... …This may help..... https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/bdr91-wiring-on-a-biasi-boiler.496100/If you have the same boiler it is connections 1 & 3 that need bridging, Don't do anything if not 100% sure. When you do this the boiler will run continuously (it will only stop firing when it's own thermostat is satisfied but the pump will run continuously) - so need some means to isolate the mains to it to switch it off. This is only a temporary fix to get some heat into the house - you will need a permanent fix asap.


Thank you that helps a lot
Van197324/11/2019 17:54

This may help..... …This may help..... https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/bdr91-wiring-on-a-biasi-boiler.496100/If you have the same boiler it is connections 1 & 3 that need bridging, Don't do anything if not 100% sure. When you do this the boiler will run continuously (it will only stop firing when it's own thermostat is satisfied but the pump will run continuously) - so need some means to isolate the mains to it to switch it off. This is only a temporary fix to get some heat into the house - you will need a permanent fix asap.


Looking at the manual posted by OP it seems a bridge (link) identified in OPs manual as "Link M in fig 6.13" should be removed, not added.
Happy to invite any other interpretation as contribution to assist OP.
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 20:20

Looking at the manual posted by OP it seems a bridge (link) identified in …Looking at the manual posted by OP it seems a bridge (link) identified in OPs manual as "Link M in fig 6.13" should be removed, not added. Happy to invite any other interpretation as contribution to assist OP.




Removed "When connecting any external control.....". External control being either a thermostat, timer or thermostat/timer (Hive and Nest etc). This link is 'closed' when there is demand for heat - powers the boiler on, so if hard wired with the link (bridged) the boiler will operate (as long as powered).
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 18:37

Politely mutters: that is utter rubbish. Download the manual for this …Politely mutters: that is utter rubbish. Download the manual for this boiler and search for the phrase that Baisi uses of: "...External controls terminal block..."


but it would mean connecting something to something. boilers with built in timers will not have an external timer as there is no need for one. the wiring is therefore not there for the hive unit to replace. where would i put the hive unit as there is no cable from the boiler to anything on the wall, as instructed in this video, where you replace the wall timer with the hive unit.

youtube.com/wat…LtE
Edited by: "mutley1" 24th Nov
I had same boiler. Sounds like similer issue water through taps no good but heating worked but wasnt the pcb. New Diverter sorted it.
I presume you tried the switch up and down at various settings.
Edited by: "KingAwKings" 24th Nov
Van197324/11/2019 20:27

...so if hard wired with the link (bridged) the boiler will operate (as …...so if hard wired with the link (bridged) the boiler will operate (as long as powered).


The external thermostat link we are referring to is (presumably) already in place (bridged). The OPs issue is that the timer's on/off button is busted in "off", so the boiler will not generate heat for either an internal stat or external stat to regulate.
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 20:47

The external thermostat link we are referring to is (presumably) already …The external thermostat link we are referring to is (presumably) already in place (bridged). The OPs issue is that the timer's on/off button is busted in "off", so the boiler will not generate heat for either an internal stat or external stat to regulate.


You're right - my answer (bridging terminals 1 & 3) is linking out the external control - not the internal timer.

However, the manual you linked has no information/wiring diagram on how to link out the internal timer.
Van197324/11/2019 21:06

You're right - my answer (bridging terminals 1 & 3) is linking out the …You're right - my answer (bridging terminals 1 & 3) is linking out the external control - not the internal timer. However, the manual you linked has no information/wiring diagram on how to link out the internal timer.


OK, from rubbish memory, there are four wires connecting the (assumed) Riva timer/controller to the main PCB. I don't recall that model using digital internal comms so OP likely just (?) has to work out which one(s) of the three non-ground wires are for the quaint analogue on/off function (I don't recall any Riva model not using using OV for on/off control). Hopefully that may be enough memory jog for someone else to assist, and if somebody with more knowledge of this specific model can contribute a better workround I am sure the OP would be appreciative.
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 21:15

OK, from rubbish memory, there are four wires connecting the (assumed) …OK, from rubbish memory, there are four wires connecting the (assumed) Riva timer/controller to the main PCB. I don't recall that model using digital internal comms so OP likely just (?) has to work out which one(s) of the three non-ground wires are for the quaint analogue on/off function (I don't recall any Riva model not using using OV for on/off control). Hopefully that may be enough memory jog for someone else to assist, and if somebody with more knowledge of this specific model can contribute a better workround I am sure the OP would be appreciative.


This might be the WD relevant to OPs Riva, but until OP confirms exact model it should just be regarded as typical application not definitive reference:

39102126-kOyve.jpg
Things just got more complicated I guess. So even hooking up a external one won't work due to the timer switch not working I guess is what your saying. I'll take a look tomorrow guys for the model number thanks
mutley124/11/2019 20:31

but it would mean connecting something to something. boilers with built …but it would mean connecting something to something. boilers with built in timers will not have an external timer as there is no need for one. the wiring is therefore not there for the hive unit to replace. where would i put the hive unit as there is no cable from the boiler to anything on the wall, as instructed in this video, where you replace the wall timer with the hive unit.


Why would you need to replace the timer if wanting to use Hive? Just leave the timer in "permanently on" position and leave the Hive to do everything else via the "external thermostat" connection. That would also be a solution for OP if Hive was required, and if OP cannot fathom the suggested internal wiring override option then a used £10 replacement controller with functional on/off switch will save all the head scratching.
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 22:43

Why would you need to replace the timer if wanting to use Hive? Just leave …Why would you need to replace the timer if wanting to use Hive? Just leave the timer in "permanently on" position and leave the Hive to do everything else via the "external thermostat" connection. That would also be a solution for OP if Hive was required, and if OP cannot fathom the suggested internal wiring override option then a used £10 replacement controller with functional on/off switch will save all the head scratching.



Link

I will give it a shot
MR112324/11/2019 22:22

Things just got more complicated I guess. So even hooking up a external …Things just got more complicated I guess. So even hooking up a external one won't work due to the timer switch not working I guess is what your saying. I'll take a look tomorrow guys for the model number thanks


Throw £10 at a replacement timer module, then consider whatever other controller you want, inc Hive which would use the prev discussed "room thermostat" connections within the bolier and as shown in your manual.
Random £10 replacement timer module that may suit your boiler ebay.co.uk/itm…928
and if you're a real moneysaver you could work out from the new timer which of the four terminals operates the on/off function, then replicate that within the bolier wiring (either perm on or via a switch), refit the old busted timer and sell-on the £10 timer for whatever you can get for it...
mutley124/11/2019 17:23

these built in timers won't have a separate connection for a wall timer, …these built in timers won't have a separate connection for a wall timer, which is needed for hive to work. i will have to pay someone to connect the hive.


Wot model boiler you got? I may be able to show you how to connect the unconnectable Hive without the aid of a safety net.
AndyRoyd24/11/2019 22:43

Why would you need to replace the timer if wanting to use Hive? Just leave …Why would you need to replace the timer if wanting to use Hive? Just leave the timer in "permanently on" position and leave the Hive to do everything else via the "external thermostat" connection. That would also be a solution for OP if Hive was required, and if OP cannot fathom the suggested internal wiring override option then a used £10 replacement controller with functional on/off switch will save all the head scratching.


the video instruction tells you to replace the timer with the hive unit as the timer controls when the boiler is turned on or off so i assume this is the wiring that controls the boiler activity, so this is where the hive unit has to go. if the boiler has an inbuilt timer then you would need to run cable from the boiler on to the wall for the hive unit to connect to it as there will be no existing cable. this is more difficult than replacing an existing wall timer with the hive unit.

i can replace the wall timer as shown in the video but running cable from the boiler is not something i am comfortable with.

my boiler is a potterton combi HE plus and there is a wall thermostat but the video instruction says to replace the wall timer with the hive unit not the wall thermostat. the wiring to the wall thermostat will not be able to turn the boiler on and off as it would not be able to control hot water but just room temperature, so only heating.
AndyRoyd25/11/2019 00:32

Throw £10 at a replacement timer module, then consider whatever other …Throw £10 at a replacement timer module, then consider whatever other controller you want, inc Hive which would use the prev discussed "room thermostat" connections within the bolier and as shown in your manual. Random £10 replacement timer module that may suit your boiler https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323978175928and if you're a real moneysaver you could work out from the new timer which of the four terminals operates the on/off function, then replicate that within the bolier wiring (either perm on or via a switch), refit the old busted timer and sell-on the £10 timer for whatever you can get for it...


Hi My model number is M96.28SM/B.
I don't need a hive for my needs, only wanted to add it to solve the on/off broken switch. If it makes it more difficult then I'd try something without it. Thanks
MR112325/11/2019 13:21

Hi My model number is M96.28SM/B.I don't need a hive for my needs, only …Hi My model number is M96.28SM/B.I don't need a hive for my needs, only wanted to add it to solve the on/off broken switch. If it makes it more difficult then I'd try something without it. Thanks


OK. That £10 controller should revert you to the pre-busted-switch position, buying you time to consider other more elaborate control options at a later date.
mutley125/11/2019 12:57

the video instruction tells you to replace the timer with the hive unit as …the video instruction tells you to replace the timer with the hive unit as the timer controls when the boiler is turned on or off ...

Just for one itsy bitsy second, consider how a boiler will react if its internal timer is set to "on" and an external thermostat is set to say 5 degrees between certain times. Excluding frost protection, will the boiler provide CH during that period?
AndyRoyd25/11/2019 15:23

Just for one itsy bitsy second, consider how a boiler will react if its …Just for one itsy bitsy second, consider how a boiler will react if its internal timer is set to "on" and an external thermostat is set to say 5 degrees between certain times. Excluding frost protection, will the boiler provide CH during that period?


is there a video where you replace the room thermostat with the hive unit? that is the instruction video i need.
mutley125/11/2019 16:20

is there a video where you replace the room thermostat with the hive unit? …is there a video where you replace the room thermostat with the hive unit? that is the instruction video i need.


Don't know if the following manual is specifically for your boiler but everything anybody would need to know about how to interface with that specific bolier is in fig 57 on page 32. If somebody was OCD about having adding an external timer then fig 58. Video? Get a grip.
wolseley.co.uk/wcs…pdf

39112772-VaKVv.jpg
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