Bus lane PCN - any thoughts/suggestions?

19
Posted 16th Oct
Right then, here goes;

Helping out a friend and his family who don’t drive, went to Manchester uni and area to drop off said friend and all his worldly possessions, my good deed sort of thing.

His first time staying away from home, so in an effort to help him settle, ran around collecting various bits and pieces, timetables, paperwork, etc.

Never been to this area before, and while running around have violated a bus lane by using it! Ooo, the horror!!

Apparently it’s correctly signposted and I should have been aware that I wasn’t allowed in it, never even saw it?
The sat nav said to go that way, on 2 devices and there was 5 of us in the car, none of us noticed anything at the time?

I was in the wife’s car and she wasn’t, she was at work so that I could help a friend.
They can’t communicate with me as she’s the registered keeper, which seems backward to me as she wasn’t there so has no idea about it?

We have told them that she wasn’t even there, but they’re obligated to communicate with her?

Any thoughts on what to do next? Pay it, appeal it, ignore it
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19 Comments
I'm guessing you have looked on street view and there is a sign? If so you may as well pay it. Council's won't let it slide and will waste lots of tax payers money fighting you.
As for communication. Your wife should send them details of the driver (you) and they will then contact you so you can then converse with them.
Ask to see the evidence / picture if its the right car then pay it
Don't ignore it.
It's not a fine from a private company they will take you to court.
If you feel you have good grounds to appeal then do so but it sounds like you messed up I'm afraid so best to pay it now while it's cheaper.
The summons’s also goes to the registered keep hence your wife getting the notice if she wasn’t driving she has to give details of the driver ie you don’t ignore it unless you want a early morning call by bailiffs and by your own omission you did it so pay it
Usual practice is for the documentation to be sent to the reg keeper request conformation of the driver. If the received doc has no mention of driver confirmation I would be checking to see if the doc was from the legitimate authority.
Just pay it. £30 rising to £60. I know the area and this was turned into a bus gateway around 12 months ago. Sat navs are to be used along with common sense not followed blindly.
Its Pretty much all bus lanes round there so the likelihood is you haven't got a leg to stand on. Just pay it saves you time and potential hassle that will follow if you dont.
I used to work this area and it is more than likely the Oxford Rd area nr to the Manchester Royal Infirmary and the main student accommodation. Most of that road has 24hr bus lanes that are well signposted and heavily covered by CCTV, there are also large parts of Oxford Rd that are for buses only.
You could try appealing and throw yourself on the mercy of the council as you are not familiar with the area but to be honest you would have more chance of Scrooge giving you an interest free loan.
Edited by: "oliviasgrandad" 16th Oct
It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was driving at the time of the offence. I was let off a similar offence when I said I was new to the area so it may be worthwhile explaining that to the council.
jaketheplumber16/10/2019 16:56

It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was …It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was driving at the time of the offence. I was let off a similar offence when I said I was new to the area so it may be worthwhile explaining that to the council.


Bus lane is a bus lane being new to the area is no excuse in fact it shows you are not paying attention whilst driving
jaketheplumber16/10/2019 16:56

It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was …It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was driving at the time of the offence. I was let off a similar offence when I said I was new to the area so it may be worthwhile explaining that to the council.


Don't know how you managed to get away with that.
jaketheplumber16/10/2019 16:56

It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was …It's usual to communicate with the registered keeper and ask who was driving at the time of the offence. I was let off a similar offence when I said I was new to the area so it may be worthwhile explaining that to the council.


That was lucky.

No way Leeds council would let you off.

They are notorious for been evil

Love this story about parking fines by Joe Lycett


m.youtube.com/wat…ULo
You're best off paying it because you don't have a leg to stand on. There are signs telling you and very noticeable cameras if paying attention. We are all human and we all make mistakes, unfortunately this one will just be a dent in the wallet mistake.
oliviasgrandad16/10/2019 15:14

I used to work this area and it is more than likely the Oxford Rd area nr …I used to work this area and it is more than likely the Oxford Rd area nr to the Manchester Royal Infirmary and the main student accommodation. Most of that road has 24hr bus lanes that are well signposted and heavily covered by CCTV, there are also large parts of Oxford Rd that are for buses only. You could try appealing and throw yourself on the mercy of the council as you are not familiar with the area but to be honest you would have more chance of Scrooge giving you an interest free loan.


Yeah, nailed on it's there! - manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new…798


Got a fine myself shortly after they changed it. Satnav took me through it too, as obvs it didn't know lol. It's a really wide road and you just wouldn't think it'd be just for buses hence not really looking too closely for any new bus-only signs, well I didn't anyway haha.
@defgimp How are you? How do you find the comments thus far? You like them or not? You are rather quiet.
If you believed that you were careful and diligent, and that you genuinely did not or could not reasonably have seen the signs due to the specific set of combination of external factors at that time, I would challenge 100%.
If you need further explanation as to why challenge, ask me.
--------
On a different point, did your friend offer £30 to you "to let it go" and to settle it?
splender17/10/2019 15:46

@defgimp How are you? How do you find the comments thus far? You like them …@defgimp How are you? How do you find the comments thus far? You like them or not? You are rather quiet.



Sorry, wasn’t being deliberately quiet, just have been busy since posting, just been a hectic few days

Asked for comments/suggestions, all of which will be read if not commented on

Locally, we’ve got 200-300 metres of “bus lane” and about the same of dual carriageway, bus lanes aren’t something I come across regularly.
I hadnt thought of looking on king on google street view, couldn’t even tell you the road I turned off to violate the bus lane?
it was oxford road as I now know, couldn’t have told you what road it was if they hadn’t told me
The consensus seems to be, just pay it and move on, it’s not something I’ve done before and certainly won’t be something I do again, around Manchester at least!

I did tell him about the pcn but he’s a student and didn’t offer to pay it and I didn’t ask him to, I offered to take him and his family to uni and deliver his stuff/him and then return with his family, was my good deed for this year

Does charging/fining me/anyone for a “mistake” make us better drivers, not convinced myself, perhaps had I done this several times or regularly then something would have been needed, but for this??
I know I’ve obviously upset the “bus lane” God’s and they need their pound of flesh to enable them to buy more cameras and pay the workers to issue more pcn’s, etc. and so it goes on, a viscious circle that just grows, if that makes sense?

Was gonna prattle on some more but gotta go shopping again now, it seems just manicat the minute and then it’s half term next week

Just a very quick thank you to everyone who read this and took the time to comment, thank you.
defgimp17/10/2019 19:54

Sorry, wasn’t being deliberately quiet, just have been busy since posting, …Sorry, wasn’t being deliberately quiet, just have been busy since posting, just been a hectic few days Asked for comments/suggestions, all of which will be read if not commented on Locally, we’ve got 200-300 metres of “bus lane” and about the same of dual carriageway, bus lanes aren’t something I come across regularly. I hadnt thought of looking on king on google street view, couldn’t even tell you the road I turned off to violate the bus lane?it was oxford road as I now know, couldn’t have told you what road it was if they hadn’t told me The consensus seems to be, just pay it and move on, it’s not something I’ve done before and certainly won’t be something I do again, around Manchester at least!I did tell him about the pcn but he’s a student and didn’t offer to pay it and I didn’t ask him to, I offered to take him and his family to uni and deliver his stuff/him and then return with his family, was my good deed for this year Does charging/fining me/anyone for a “mistake” make us better drivers, not convinced myself, perhaps had I done this several times or regularly then something would have been needed, but for this??I know I’ve obviously upset the “bus lane” God’s and they need their pound of flesh to enable them to buy more cameras and pay the workers to issue more pcn’s, etc. and so it goes on, a viscious circle that just grows, if that makes sense?Was gonna prattle on some more but gotta go shopping again now, it seems just manicat the minute and then it’s half term next week Just a very quick thank you to everyone who read this and took the time to comment, thank you.


This takes several hours to do, to challenge the enforcement.

When one is an observant and careful driver, whether stranger to a town or resident in a town, if one falls foul of one of these penalities, whether the signs or markings were and are clearly labelled or not, in my humble experience, it is always worthwhile to challenge. This is because I think then the success rate in challenge is greater than 50% over a long term in years. You are gambling your chances, either £0 (wins challenge) or £60 (loses challenge). The reasons as to why one's chance is greater than 50% or can be as high as 90% are:-

1. You are a diligent driver and that you believed that you were careful in watching out for the signs...
2. Your "mistake" (or caught out) could be due to many environmental factors, due to the time of the day or night and due to the actual traffic conditions, which are very dynamic and could be very specific to the varied factors at the time of the incident.
3. The warning signs and markings could be put up on a minimalist approach thus driving the number of incidences of these markings not seen even by an observant driver with > 50% probability. In a specific case of mine, my local authority deliberately did not light up the bus lane signs, however, the give way signs, no right turns etc. are lit. Therefore, it was possible for certain lighting conditions that the bus lanes sign could not be read due to dazzle and too much contrast between dim and bright (the restricted hours wording).

If you did not see the signs, and when you re-traced your route and you could document a logical explanation as to how and why that you did not see the sign or could not have reasonably seen the signs. Then you are already on your way to a successul challenge.

Because, 2, and 3 are very specific to the time of day, season, lighting condition...the local authority or its agent will have to deal with your specific details and to address your logical reasoning competently. Quite often, for £30, a manager for enforcement is unlikely to address your specific details for a cost of £10+ /hour effort, especially if a manager has to send a person out to do a site/route visit to assess the weather, ambient lighting, traffic conditions at the equivalent time of the alleged time of incident. For example, when a place was well signposted, if a number of tall vehicles had blocked your view at that specific time of you driving pass, then you would not see the sign. Then you are let off. Or, during twilight hours, the signs were not lit.

More often than not, a poor effort or no effort is made to respond to your challenge, when one's case gets to the adjudicator, the adjudicator reads your logically and reasonbly prepared explanation, and then s/he reads the enforcement side's responce to your explanation. If:-

1. There is no reply to your prepared explanation (from the enforcement agency) - then case is dismissed immediately. <=== very likely, as for £30 gross, net profit is £15, it makes little economic sense for a quality written response. Some signs are there mainly to milk money.
2. If reply is poorly written, or using a stock template response which does not address your specific detailed points adequately, then the case is dismissed on grounds of unreliability and poor quality of evidence.
3. If reply is sound and reasoned, then the adjudicator makes an assessment ...using law, and/or the probable environmental conditions on the day/night.. which could have or could not have caused you not to see the signs.
Edited by: "splender" 17th Oct
splender17/10/2019 20:59

This takes several hours to do, to challenge the enforcement.When one is …This takes several hours to do, to challenge the enforcement.When one is an observant and careful driver, whether stranger to a town or resident in a town, if one falls foul of one of these penalities, whether the signs or markings were and are clearly labelled or not, in my humble experience, it is always worthwhile to challenge. This is because I think then the success rate in challenge is greater than 50% over a long term in years. You are gambling your chances, either £0 (wins challenge) or £60 (loses challenge). The reasons as to why one's chance is greater than 50% or can be as high as 90% are:-1. You are a diligent driver and that you believed that you were careful in watching out for the signs...2. Your "mistake" (or caught out) could be due to many environmental factors, due to the time of the day or night and due to the actual traffic conditions, which are very dynamic and could be very specific to the varied factors at the time of the incident.3. The warning signs and markings could be put up on a minimalist approach thus driving the number of incidences of these markings not seen even by an observant driver with > 50% probability. In a specific case of mine, my local authority deliberately did not light up the bus lane signs, however, the give way signs, no right turns etc. are lit. Therefore, it was possible for certain lighting conditions that the bus lanes sign could not be read due to dazzle and too much contrast between dim and bright (the restricted hours wording).If you did not see the signs, and when you re-traced your route and you could document a logical explanation as to how and why that you did not see the sign or could not have reasonably seen the signs. Then you are already on your way to a successul challenge.Because, 2, and 3 are very specific to the time of day, season, lighting condition...the local authority or its agent will have to deal with your specific details and to address your logical reasoning competently. Quite often, for £30, a manager for enforcement is unlikely to address your specific details for a cost of £10+ /hour effort, especially if a manager has to send a person out to do a site/route visit to assess the weather, ambient lighting, traffic conditions at the equivalent time of the alleged time of incident. For example, when a place was well signposted, if a number of tall vehicles had blocked your view at that specific time of you driving pass, then you would not see the sign. Then you are let off. Or, during twilight hours, the signs were not lit.More often than not, a poor effort or no effort is made to respond to your challenge, when one's case gets to the adjudicator, the adjudicator reads your logically and reasonbly prepared explanation, and then s/he reads the enforcement side's responce to your explanation. If:-1. There is no reply to your prepared explanation (from the enforcement agency) - then case is dismissed immediately. <=== very likely, as for £30 gross, net profit is £15, it makes little economic sense for a quality written response. Some signs are there mainly to milk money.2. If reply is poorly written, or using a stock template response which does not address your specific detailed points adequately, then the case is dismissed on grounds of unreliability and poor quality of evidence.3. If reply is sound and reasoned, then the adjudicator makes an assessment ...using law, and/or the probable environmental conditions on the day/night.. which could have or could not have caused you not to see the signs.



Thank you for your time on this, it's made me go and study the street view to see exactly what the signage is and yes, it is there, it's not the biggest signs in the world.
There seems to be 3 of them across the road, 1 to the left of the start of a dedicated cycle lane is blacked out from the footage, but from street view it originally stated the same as the other 2 signs which are on the left and right of the road facing the direction of travel.
The signs aren't illuminated at all, other than being yellow.
The bus gate is in operation from 6am to 9pm everyday, which would be difficult to see at night or early evening/late afternoon and although it wasn't a particularly bright day, it was rather dull and drizzly, it's a rather tenuous argument to say I didn't see the signs, even though I didn't, at all.
Although it wasn't bright, it was 3 in the afternoon and everything is pretty clear/visible in the footage and it was over a month ago now, so it wasn't even like the light was fading, although it did get very dark, very quickly as it was that sort of day.
There were several people crossing the road ahead of me from the footage they have, which is probably where my attention was focused, (they weren't on a crossing, just crossing the road) rather than looking for signage for a bus lane/gate I wasn't aware existed?!
They do comment on the "advance" warning signs, which are poor to say the least, 1 small white sign further back along the road indicating that other traffic should turn left.
I would imagine that "their" argument will always be that the signage is there, whether I saw it or was more focused on what was going on around me is somewhat irrelevant.
I've personally driven 600,000+ miles since I started driving which has no relevance on anything really, I did the crime as it were

From studying the street view footage, it looks like I may have contraviened the bus gate going in the opposite direction too, but there's no footage of that it seems, that's just my assumption/opinion?

On this occasion, I'm just going to pay it and be done with it, it's far too much stress and time and effort, I'm still here reading and studying and typing gone midnight when I should be in bed, school run again in the morning

Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment and a big thank you to Splender for your time and extra effort
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