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    Croydon tram accident

    Anyone here sleep at the wheel... hopefully not.

    is it time to automate the Croydon trams to prevent a future disaster?

    What could be done if not automation.

    34 Comments

    Human fault ~0.001% , automation fault ~0.001%, programming error ~0.001% unknown/unexpected ~0.001% , which does one choose?!

    the DLR is automated .. my kids had a blast sitting at the front pretending to drive

    Let's automate all cars, buses, trains, aeroplanes etc as well.
    Yes I agree something is required but put in a red signal before the curve and make the driver call in and also put in a AWS system. This warns the driver then stops the train if the driver doesn't act.
    You have to be sensible and a knee jerk reaction would not help and what happens if someone is stuck in the line in front of an automatic train ?

    Automation of all forms of transport is the future. Why we don't fast track (pun unintended) it on public transport I don't know.

    hutchir9

    Let's automate all cars, buses, trains, aeroplanes etc as well. Yes I … Let's automate all cars, buses, trains, aeroplanes etc as well. Yes I agree something is required but put in a red signal before the curve and make the driver call in and also put in a AWS system. This warns the driver then stops the train if the driver doesn't act.You have to be sensible and a knee jerk reaction would not help and what happens if someone is stuck in the line in front of an automatic train ?



    What happens is that the sensors see them and stop. And they do it far more reliably that a human could.

    Original Poster

    hutchir9

    Let's automate all cars, buses, trains, aeroplanes etc as well. Yes I … Let's automate all cars, buses, trains, aeroplanes etc as well. Yes I agree something is required but put in a red signal before the curve and make the driver call in and also put in a AWS system. This warns the driver then stops the train if the driver doesn't act.You have to be sensible and a knee jerk reaction would not help and what happens if someone is stuck in the line in front of an automatic train ?



    ​whats AWS stand for incidentally?

    I'm not sure if true but heard in the news somewhere that the driver pressed a button to actually go faster.

    Original Poster

    ThePasty

    Automatic Warning System


    I am amazed its not in place already!!

    Cameras all around (like First Group buses and other bus companies)
    Automatic braking systems triggered by sensors and warning/speed signs not acknowledged by driver
    Yes there's always human error - that will only be eradicated with full automation but I'd prefer to rely on human input with safety measures rather than fully automation.
    I can only blame First Group and any other company associated with the running/planning of this tram system (including government/council) and the driver because if the necessary safety concerns were identified and funded/fixed then the risk of this particular accident would have been zero.
    In one of my former employments I was also the Health and Safety Officer and it was my task to identify risk factors and advise the company on those risks and ensure adequate attention was given to those risks and everything had to be written down and signed off (so that if I identified a risk and no "reasonable" preventative action was taken the company would be held totally responsible) - I can only assume someone failed to identify the risk or ignored those risk assessments.

    Edited by: "philphil61" 19th Nov 2016

    bet the dude will try to lie his way out of it like the bin lorry guy but if there's any justice in the world he'll see the inside of a prison for killing & injuring those people

    dailymail.co.uk/new…tml

    So the passenger was so worried at the time that he filmed the driver but then didn't report him with the video as evidence?

    FirstGroup state they were not shown the video before now. If they had been there could have been an enquiry and possibly the later crash could have been avoided with stricter safety measures in place?

    It says the driver of the crashed tram is being investigated for writing a text when the derailment occurred.

    Mark2111

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3951408/Shocking-video-shows-tram-driver-ASLEEP-controls-doing-40mph-track-Croydon-disaster-killed-seven.htmlSo the passenger was so worried at the time that he filmed the driver but then didn't report him with the video as evidence?FirstGroup state they were not shown the video before now. If they had been there could have been an enquiry and possibly the later crash could have been avoided with stricter safety measures in place?It says the driver of the crashed tram is being investigated for writing a text when the derailment occurred.


    I agree - plonker who took the video IMHO needs to be held responsible (hopefully jailed but unlikely)
    Every man and woman has a duty / responsibility to report safety issues (whether at work or not) especially with something so bad as this driver falling asleep on the tram.

    Maybe they're just another millennial who wants his 5 mins of internet fame - but in my eyes the are too late now they will be famous for being so pathetically stupid and putting other lives at risk

    oh here we go again - waiting for my normal ignor.. "followers" to attempt to criticise my opinion
    Edited by: "philphil61" 19th Nov 2016

    If all safety , fail safe, dual and multiple sensors, auto-switch to altenative system when prime system fails, two sets of signals, radar and complete micro tracking of everything, plus all the programming and updates, were all to be put in because they should have them, then the costs go to 2X and the fare would be doubled , say , daily travel card off peak willl be £25 and then daily peak travel card £45.

    Original Poster

    splender

    If all safety , fail safe, dual and multiple sensors, auto-switch to … If all safety , fail safe, dual and multiple sensors, auto-switch to altenative system when prime system fails, two sets of signals, radar and complete micro tracking of everything, plus all the programming and updates, were all to be put in because they should have them, then the costs go to 2X and the fare would be doubled , say , daily travel card off peak willl be £25 and then daily peak travel card £45.


    part of TFL costs, huge budget, safety comes first whether on tube, tram and DLR. 7 people's lives is too heavy a price to pay.

    philphil61

    Cameras all around (like First Group buses and other bus … Cameras all around (like First Group buses and other bus companies)Automatic braking systems triggered by sensors and warning/speed signs not acknowledged by driverYes there's always human error - that will only be eradicated with full automation but I'd prefer to rely on human input with safety measures rather than fully automation.I can only blame First Group and any other company associated with the running/planning of this tram system (including government/council) and the driver because if the necessary safety concerns were identified and funded/fixed then the risk of this particular accident would have been zero.In one of my former employments I was also the Health and Safety Officer and it was my task to identify risk factors and advise the company on those risks and ensure adequate attention was given to those risks and everything had to be written down and signed off (so that if I identified a risk and no "reasonable" preventative action was taken the company would be held totally responsible) - I can only assume someone failed to identify the risk or ignored those risk assessments.


    They probably did realise the risk and they will argue they mitigated against an accident by implementing a speed limit of 12mph ?
    At 12mph it would of been safe.

    hutchir9

    They probably did realise the risk and they will argue they mitigated … They probably did realise the risk and they will argue they mitigated against an accident by implementing a speed limit of 12mph ? At 12mph it would of been safe.


    Although I agree with your response and probably it is the "politically correct" response IMHO just a speed restriction isn't sufficient.
    AFAIK trains have automated warnings and/or braking systems in place (for speed/hazards etc)
    AFAIK most large bus companies have CCTV cameras in place and these are used to prevent accidents or used as evidence for accidents (and subsequently when a driver is found to be at fault used against the driver)

    I see very little difference between a train and a tram with regards to safety of the transportation of humans
    As First Group run a very large bus network - why they wouldn't introduce the same CCTV system on the trams beggars belief

    We have speed limits on roads and we have cameras and law enforcement which assist in preventing people from abusing the speed limit.

    Again it's my opinion but I hold the government, the council and tram companies and the driver equally responsible but most likely the driver will be punished, the government/council will say "We'll learn from our mistakes" and the companies will just implement my "advice" and apologise

    Dead mans handle.

    Original Poster

    professorEX


    whoops, edited now.

    Error440

    Dead mans handle.




    I wondered about that. I read this

    The Bombardier-built tram is believed to have been equipped with a “deadman’s handle”, a safety device that would trigger an alarm should a driver take his hand off the controls, and would apply the brakes after three seconds. But there is no equivalent of the track safety and control systems that would automatically stop any train that was speeding.

    Many speed restrictions on the network were lifted by Transport for London when it replaced tracks after bringing the route under its control in 2008, 10 years after it first opened.

    Original Poster

    Mark2111

    I wondered about that. I read thisThe Bombardier-built tram is believed … I wondered about that. I read thisThe Bombardier-built tram is believed to have been equipped with a “deadman’s handle”, a safety device that would trigger an alarm should a driver take his hand off the controls, and would apply the brakes after three seconds. But there is no equivalent of the track safety and control systems that would automatically stop any train that was speeding.Many speed restrictions on the network were lifted by Transport for London when it replaced tracks after bringing the route under its control in 2008, 10 years after it first opened.


    does it have an overide

    davewave

    does it have an overide




    Might do if the report about the driver texting is true.

    Original Poster

    Mark2111

    Might do if the report about the driver texting is true.



    ​any drivers of buses or any public transport should not be allowed to text whilst driving, well overdue given their responsibility for so many people's lives.

    philphil61

    Although I agree with your response and probably it is the "politically … Although I agree with your response and probably it is the "politically correct" response IMHO just a speed restriction isn't sufficient. AFAIK trains have automated warnings and/or braking systems in place (for speed/hazards etc)AFAIK most large bus companies have CCTV cameras in place and these are used to prevent accidents or used as evidence for accidents (and subsequently when a driver is found to be at fault used against the driver)I see very little difference between a train and a tram with regards to safety of the transportation of humansAs First Group run a very large bus network - why they wouldn't introduce the same CCTV system on the trams beggars beliefWe have speed limits on roads and we have cameras and law enforcement which assist in preventing people from abusing the speed limit.Again it's my opinion but I hold the government, the council and tram companies and the driver equally responsible but most likely the driver will be punished, the government/council will say "We'll learn from our mistakes" and the companies will just implement my "advice" and apologise


    The tram was fitted with a CCTV system, it had both an external forward facing camera and internal ones as well but according to the interim report it appears none of them were working. It makes me wonder if the cameras on their buses actually work.
    Also, First Group may not have seen the video mentioned earlier but they were aware of drivers speeding at this spot because a concerned lady passenger had previously emailed them and received a reply.
    The evidence so far doesn't give me much confidence that First Group can be trusted to maintain these trams properly or operate them in a safe manner.

    arcangel111

    the DLR is automated .. my kids had a blast sitting at the front … the DLR is automated .. my kids had a blast sitting at the front pretending to drive



    A riotously good time, I hope.

    philphil61

    Although I agree with your response and probably it is the "politically … Although I agree with your response and probably it is the "politically correct" response IMHO just a speed restriction isn't sufficient. AFAIK trains have automated warnings and/or braking systems in place (for speed/hazards etc)AFAIK most large bus companies have CCTV cameras in place and these are used to prevent accidents or used as evidence for accidents (and subsequently when a driver is found to be at fault used against the driver)I see very little difference between a train and a tram with regards to safety of the transportation of humansAs First Group run a very large bus network - why they wouldn't introduce the same CCTV system on the trams beggars beliefWe have speed limits on roads and we have cameras and law enforcement which assist in preventing people from abusing the speed limit.Again it's my opinion but I hold the government, the council and tram companies and the driver equally responsible but most likely the driver will be punished, the government/council will say "We'll learn from our mistakes" and the companies will just implement my "advice" and apologise



    Totally agree , the majority of trains now have forward facing cameras and AWS , trams seem to be immune for some reason. I'm not sure if this is just a money saving exercise or the companies just being complacent, but something needs to be done.

    davewave

    part of TFL costs, huge budget, safety comes first whether on tube, tram … part of TFL costs, huge budget, safety comes first whether on tube, tram and DLR. 7 people's lives is too heavy a price to pay.


    How about stick £3, £5 or £7 extra per day per traveller for extra safety to prevent lives and then propose that to TFL for implementation?

    Edited by: "splender" 19th Nov 2016

    Original Poster

    splender

    How about stick £3, £5 or £7 extra per day per traveller for extra sa … How about stick £3, £5 or £7 extra per day per traveller for extra safety to prevent lives and then propose that to TFL for implementation?


    Whatever mate, TfL's operating spending last year was £5.69 billion. Pretty sure they can find the money.

    davewave

    Whatever mate, TfL's operating spending last year was £5.69 billion. … Whatever mate, TfL's operating spending last year was £5.69 billion. Pretty sure they can find the money.


    We also need similar "safety" controls for banking, food and drinks contaminations, medicines, import and export, finance trading, offshoring and complex multicountry ownership, fiddling libor rate or other similar, power energy companies, nuclear stuff, trains, ferries, hospital management systems, ...in case they have "accidents" too.
    .
    By the way, this country is exploiting a system of non-profit making commissioning system where all the profits are made in the delivery companies to the commissioning system. E.g. TFL claims it makes no profit, every penny is ploughed into the service. All the profits are made by the suppliers to TFL. Nothing wrong with making no-profit and making a profit, of course. Just pointing out so we know where the safety is to be delivered from, which are the specifications made by requirements management. Then safety is delivered to a service level based on a price and profit. If not profitable, the supplier would throw in the towel.
    Edited by: "splender" 19th Nov 2016

    Original Poster

    splender

    We also need similar "safety" controls for banking, food and drinks … We also need similar "safety" controls for banking, food and drinks contaminations, medicines, import and export, finance trading, offshoring and complex multicountry ownership, fiddling libor rate or other similar, power energy companies, nuclear stuff, trains, ferries, hospital management systems, ...in case they have "accidents" too..By the way, this country is exploiting a system of non-profit making commissioning system where all the profits are made in the delivery companies to the commissioning system. E.g. TFL claims it makes no profit, every penny is ploughed into the service. All the profits are made by the suppliers to TFL. Nothing wrong with making non-profit and making a profit, of course. Just pointing out so you know where the safety is to be delivered from to specifications made by requirements management.


    When improvements are required to London transport infrastructure with a responsibility under TFL then obvious choice would be TFL.

    Start a thread about every single aspect of commercial services where you can analyse all regulations for every commercial enterprise you mention, may take some time though - try to keep this thread on the subject of transport safety please.

    I used to use that tram until a couple of years ago. It was always a bit scary when they'd speed up going through the straight tunnel and then (hopefully) brake sharply before the turn oO
    Anyway, I'd prefer automation of speed / speed limiters would be a good idea. The trams already have a system for sensing when they are at a stop (IIRC) - so a few of these embedded in the track at key points would be a cheap way of implementing this.
    The trams do need a member of staff on board though, for safely and reassurance - especially at night/rush hour.

    Original Poster

    buddhabelly

    I used to use that tram until a couple of years ago. It was always a bit … I used to use that tram until a couple of years ago. It was always a bit scary when they'd speed up going through the straight tunnel and then (hopefully) brake sharply before the turn oOAnyway, I'd prefer automation of speed / speed limiters would be a good idea. The trams already have a system for sensing when they are at a stop (IIRC) - so a few of these embedded in the track at key points would be a cheap way of implementing this.The trams do need a member of staff on board though, for safely and reassurance - especially at night/rush hour.


    agreed just like the DLR.

    Automation - the sooner the better. Human error will never be eradicated.

    Mind, I don't think it would be feasible to have 'driverless' trams. For instance, on the no3 line, there are quite a few crossings (like a level crossing but without barriers) and then, of course where it goes through central Croydon, with people frequently crossing over the tracks - especially going down Church St. Having to share a narrow section of George St with cycles. Too chaotic.
    This thread makes me realise how much I DON'T miss Croydon - lol
    Edited by: "buddhabelly" 19th Nov 2016
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