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    Elections in France, Germany, Austria and Netherlands

    The bleeding heart liberals with open borders may now make the far right gain a lot more power as antiEU sentiment grows.

    82 Comments

    Happy Friday everyone!

    Just had marmite on toast for brekky

    I live in hope for more antiEU sentiment in Europe, though sadly the far right are on the rise. I agree, inadvertently the liberals are the cause of the gains in the far right parties in Europe.

    I say bring it on and lets see how bad it can get.

    I'm not looking to insult anyone but with the dissatisfaction at the Tories and the role UKIP played in the referendum, I'm not sure everyone is unhappy or fearful of the rise of the far-right.

    Considering some of the defences I've seen thrown up for assaults and murders that were racially-motivated, I think some are sleepwalking towards the far-right.

    Original Poster

    EN1GMA

    I say bring it on and lets see how bad it can get.



    ​a rare fan of the far right? curve those good old days of the 1940s?

    davewave

    ​a rare fan of the far right? curve those good old days of the 1940s?


    More like 1930s

    Could be hot UK deal if these countries gang up and have finances centralised to Frankfurt, I have not seen any minister rolled out strategy and white papers for policies correcting this balance of trade deficit, e.g. any goods and services apprentice schemes and planning application for factories. Liam Fox isn't exactly getting British exporters knocking at his door.
    http://i1.wp.com/www.edmundconway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/netexports.jpg


    Edited by: "splender" 16th Sep 2016

    It's all irrelevant, according to Nostradamus we will all be under Alien invasion next year..unless of course he mean't illegal aliens.

    davewave

    ​a rare fan of the far right? curve those good old days of the 1940s?



    There's a reason why the far-right rose to prominence in the 1920s and 1930s. They offered populist, nationalist policies to their people and capitalised on desperation and dissent.

    Go back and look at Hitlers 25-point program and look how many policies you'll see espoused today, some verbatim.

    Rights for Germans, anti-European sentiment, anti-immigrant sentiment, an end to immigration, anti-banker policies, a focus on German laws over 'Roman laws'....it's not exactly the same but the methods are strikingly similar.

    davewave

    ​a rare fan of the far right? curve those good old days of the 1940s?


    no, rather that's what your and your ilk want with your constant attacks on 'foreigners'. don't pretend you're not happy with the anti Islam sentiment that is currently the slogan of the far right. you may not be a fully paid up member but you certainly support some of their causes.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    There's a reason why the far-right rose to prominence in the 1920s and … There's a reason why the far-right rose to prominence in the 1920s and 1930s. They offered populist, nationalist policies to their people and capitalised on desperation and dissent.Go back and look at Hitlers 25-point program and look how many policies you'll see espoused today, some verbatim.Rights for Germans, anti-European sentiment, anti-immigrant sentiment, an end to immigration, anti-banker policies, a focus on German laws over 'Roman laws'....it's not exactly the same but the methods are strikingly similar.



    I agree with you.

    The United States of Europe chief called Jean Claude Junket has suggested EU to mobilise an army. Where will it lead us...??? To War???

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    There's a reason why the far-right rose to prominence in the 1920s and … There's a reason why the far-right rose to prominence in the 1920s and 1930s. They offered populist, nationalist policies to their people and capitalised on desperation and dissent.Go back and look at Hitlers 25-point program and look how many policies you'll see espoused today, some verbatim.Rights for Germans, anti-European sentiment, anti-immigrant sentiment, an end to immigration, anti-banker policies, a focus on German laws over 'Roman laws'....it's not exactly the same but the methods are strikingly similar.



    ​Go to China or India and see. The countries are rich but due to immense population, the people are poor

    Surely you must be delighted davewave?

    Original Poster

    Gollywood

    Surely you must be delighted davewave?


    not a fan of the far right, last time the experiment ended with genocide and a nuclear bomb, amongst other innocent deaths.

    davewave

    not a fan of the far right, last time the experiment ended with genocide … not a fan of the far right, last time the experiment ended with genocide and a nuclear bomb, amongst other innocent deaths.



    I'd personally put that more at the feet of dictators, but in terms of policies of the far-right I think some people here would be surprised by what they agreed with.

    Instead people seem reticent to acknowledge this, because the far-right as such a bad reputation. The simple truth is that some of the views espoused on this site would not look out of place on a far-right forum. I hope no-ones offended by that and I'm more than willing to give legitimate, specific examples that I've seen.

    Original Poster

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    I'd personally put that more at the feet of dictators, but in terms of … I'd personally put that more at the feet of dictators, but in terms of policies of the far-right I think some people here would be surprised by what they agreed with.Instead people seem reticent to acknowledge this, because the far-right as such a bad reputation. The simple truth is that some of the views espoused on this site would not look out of place on a far-right forum. I hope no-ones offended by that and I'm more than willing to give legitimate, specific examples that I've seen.



    Disguising racism and bigotry may fool people for a short time, I would not truse Le Pen for instance...

    Ex FT:
    Much of the credit for the FN’s political momentum goes to Ms Le Pen’s deliberate efforts to enlarge her base since taking over the party in 2011, but also to the malaise afflicting a France in which the economy has stagnated for the past three years while unemployment has risen above 10 per cent.

    Ultimately, quitting the euro is the only solution, she says. “We are told it’s going to be catastrophic, that it will rain frogs, that the Seine will turn into a river of blood,” she says. “There aren’t that many practical problems.”


    To detoxify the FN’s brand, she has distanced herself from anti-semitic comments made by her father and party founder, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who has described the gas chambers as “a detail” of the second world war. There are times, she says, when she and her father disagree. “But I am the president of the National Front and he’s the honorary president. I determine the … line.”

    In a small office in a nondescript modern building in the Paris suburb of Nanterre, the fast-talking Ms Le Pen comes across as a single-minded politician, at ease with every subject while glossing over challenges or contradictions in her policies. “I’m not here to run a boutique. I’m here to reach power and to return it to the French people,” she says. “That’s my role.” Constantly in motion, and seemingly in a rush, she tends to sit on the edge of her seat, fiddles with her pen, combs her fingers through her blond hair or inhales on her electronic cigarette.
    Much of the political class still considers the FN a xenophobic party that spreads the politics of fear and has sanitised its façade but not its substance. A new book, Marine Le Pen Prise Aux Mots (Marine Le Pen taken at her word), questions whether the updating of her vocabulary amounts to real change at the FN.

    What is clear is that Ms Le Pen’s promise of simple solutions to seemingly intractable social and economic problems is striking a chord with a disenchanted public.

    davewave

    Disguising racism and bigotry may fool people for a short time, I would … Disguising racism and bigotry may fool people for a short time, I would not truse Le Pen for instance...



    I think you're underestimating the pervasiveness of far-right/nationalist/populist politics in both this country and abroad. Trump and Farage sharing a stage highlights just how these policies are being mainstreamed.

    Again, look at Hitler's 25-point plan from 1920, tone down some of the anti-Semitic language and you have a lot of populist policies that people both here and in the wider public would support.

    Far-right policies will always appeal to some because they demonise groups in such a way that blame for almost anything can be attributed to them. Any personal failing, any unfulfilled ambition, any slight or insult you've felt can be blamed on the immigrant, or the banker, or the foreign power. You clearly recognise their emergence again, but I'm not sure if you recognise your own feelings towards them.

    Let's not forget that the other extreme, the far left, have been equally guilty of injustice whenever they have come to power. Taking the illusive middle ground isn't the answer either, for usually those in favour of this option will gravitate closer to one of the extreme views. Philosophical politics and Religion politics always takes the path of inhumanity towards those they deem to be beneath them.
    I find it difficult to trust or follow any political party or position.

    Original Poster

    Predikuesi

    Let's not forget that the other extreme, the far left, have been equally … Let's not forget that the other extreme, the far left, have been equally guilty of injustice whenever they have come to power. Taking the illusive middle ground isn't the answer either, for usually those in favour of this option will gravitate closer to one of the extreme views. Philosophical politics and Religion politics always takes the path of inhumanity towards those they deem to be beneath them. I find it difficult to trust or follow any political party or position.



    ​totally agree!

    Predikuesi

    Let's not forget that the other extreme, the far left,



    Is this not the same tactic used in other discussions, to absolve or mitigate responsibility? Someone talks about racist assaults and murders, someone (predictable usually) says that white people have been attacked or that 'crime happens'.

    Someone mentions the rise of the far-right, someone brings up the far-left.

    If someone posts about a woman being raped, is there a programmed response that men are raped too?

    Why do you feel the need to deflect attention away from the discussion of the far-right? It doesn't need defending does it? If people want to follow far-right, nationalist politics then they are free to do that. But strangely people are happy to espouse these policies without saying that they are on the far-right of politics. There's a lack of honesty here.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    Is this not the same tactic used in other discussions, to absolve or … Is this not the same tactic used in other discussions, to absolve or mitigate responsibility? Someone talks about racist assaults and murders, someone (predictable usually) says that white people have been attacked or that 'crime happens'.Someone mentions the rise of the far-right, someone brings up the far-left.If someone posts about a woman being raped, is there a programmed response that men are raped too? Why do you feel the need to deflect attention away from the discussion of the far-right? It doesn't need defending does it? If people want to follow far-right, nationalist politics then they are free to do that. But strangely people are happy to espouse these policies without saying that they are on the far-right of politics. There's a lack of honesty here.



    Well with that diatribe firmly in place, are you actually a supporter of far left principles?

    Predikuesi

    Well with that diatribe firmly in place, are you actually a supporter of … Well with that diatribe firmly in place, are you actually a supporter of far left principles?



    No, but if I was I'd hope I'd have the gumption to admit to it. I'm like most people probably are - socially liberal and economically conservative. I have no fear of immigrants, I have no fear of Europe and I'm not looking for anyone to blame. I believe in a free market, low taxes, and private ownership of some (not all) services.

    Now can I ask you if you're actually a supporter of far-right, nationalist principles?
    Edited by: "HotEnglishAndWelshDeals" 16th Sep 2016

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    No, but if I was I'd hope I'd have the gumption to admit to it. I'm like … No, but if I was I'd hope I'd have the gumption to admit to it. I'm like most people probably are - socially liberal and economically conservative. I have no fear of immigrants, I have no fear of Europe and I'm not looking for anyone to blame.Now can I ask you if you're actually a supporter of far-right, nationalist principles?



    I can definelty say that I am opposed to far right principles / politics / nationalism, especially since I am of Jewish stock and my great great grandparents being forced to emigrate to Britain from Europe due to anti-Semitic sentiments in their era.

    I have no fear of Europe either. We are considering moving to Eire (my wife is Irish). I'd only fear living in a country dominated by religion or extreme political views.
    Edited by: "Predikuesi" 16th Sep 2016

    sam_of_london

    The United States of Europe chief called Jean Claude Junket has suggested … The United States of Europe chief called Jean Claude Junket has suggested EU to mobilise an army. Where will it lead us...??? To War???


    They may make Tony as Chief of Command for Peace.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    I'd personally put that more at the feet of dictators, but in terms of … I'd personally put that more at the feet of dictators, but in terms of policies of the far-right I think some people here would be surprised by what they agreed with.Instead people seem reticent to acknowledge this, because the far-right as such a bad reputation. The simple truth is that some of the views espoused on this site would not look out of place on a far-right forum. I hope no-ones offended by that and I'm more than willing to give legitimate, specific examples that I've seen.


    Exactly, especially when one consider the hundreds of millions of English dispora overseas.

    Have about at least 8 political parties in UK, they each can then represent 12.5% percentile of the population, something for every 12.5% segment of population. 1/ Tory right + UKIP, 2/ Tory middle + Labour right + Lib Dems right 3/ Labour left+ Lib Dems left 4/ other raving loonies 5/SNP 6/ Welsh 7/ N Ireland 8/ Greens etc..
    Then no 12.5% segment can win overall parliamentatary majority, so they have to work in a coalition, make deals, so every segment is a winner in something in win-win negotiations, so everyone is happy with coalition government as the people that each party represent take turns to win something. This is a plural government where more social groups are included as oppose to a duality government , Labour versus Tory and each party has itself major opposing factions.

    Hopefully I will be dead before things get really bad which I predict they will.

    I think the 1990s was the last great decade, since then most things in the world have gone downhill.

    Over 1.2million asylum claims in the EU in 2015 EU influx by area 2015 and it is likely the true number is far worse considering this doesn't count those not claiming asylum.

    I don't know how any right minded person can argue that this is a good thing when a countries population jumps circa 2% year on year despite no structural or financial measures being taken to accommodate or integrate these groups a large proportion of which are members or sympathetic to terrorist groups.

    A controlled immigration policy is a necessity if the EU is to survive.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    I'm not looking to insult anyone but with the dissatisfaction at the … I'm not looking to insult anyone but with the dissatisfaction at the Tories and the role UKIP played in the referendum, I'm not sure everyone is unhappy or fearful of the rise of the far-right.Considering some of the defences I've seen thrown up for assaults and murders that were racially-motivated, I think some are sleepwalking towards the far-right.



    Can you give some examples of people on here defending racially motivated murders/assaults?
    I've seen two members on here rather disgracefully attempting to make out that racist crimes of violence including murder are just a 'white' thing and that the rise of the far-right in the UK is a 'white' thing (you only have to look at the massive increase in antisemitic attacks and the identity of the vast majority of the perpetrators of that violence to see that is baloney) , is that what you were referring to?

    Personally I believe Brexiters realised that EU states are shifting to the far-right. Some, France included, are on the cusp of electing the first far right party into power in Europe since the 1930's and decided that now is the time to get the UK out.

    john184

    Over 1.2million asylum claims in the EU in 2015 EU influx by area 2015 … Over 1.2million asylum claims in the EU in 2015 EU influx by area 2015 and it is likely the true number is far worse considering this doesn't count those not claiming asylum.I don't know how any right minded person can argue that this is a good thing when a countries population jumps circa 2% year on year despite no structural or financial measures being taken to accommodate or integrate these groups a large proportion of which are members or sympathetic to terrorist groups.A controlled immigration policy is a necessity if the EU is to survive.



    You didn't include the figures to back-up your assertion that 'a large proportion of which are members or sympathetic to terrorist groups'.

    Or are there no figures and you're just assuming they would be because of, oh I don't know, some reason that you probably don't need spelled out?

    Then maybe we can move on to what we do to stop immigrants coming across. Mark2111 above you suggested machine gunning asylum seekers in Calais - is that an option you'd put forward?

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    I think you're underestimating the pervasiveness of … I think you're underestimating the pervasiveness of far-right/nationalist/populist politics in both this country and abroad. Trump and Farage sharing a stage highlights just how these policies are being mainstreamed. Again, look at Hitler's 25-point plan from 1920, tone down some of the anti-Semitic language and you have a lot of populist policies that people both here and in the wider public would support.Far-right policies will always appeal to some because they demonise groups in such a way that blame for almost anything can be attributed to them. Any personal failing, any unfulfilled ambition, any slight or insult you've felt can be blamed on the immigrant, or the banker, or the foreign power. You clearly recognise their emergence again, but I'm not sure if you recognise your own feelings towards them.


    We should bear in mind that Hitler attacked Jews for their perceived 'privilege', concocting conspiracy theories to account for the fact that Jews were statistically better off on average. Gotta keep a close eye on that kind of behaviour.

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    I think you're underestimating the pervasiveness of … I think you're underestimating the pervasiveness of far-right/nationalist/populist politics in both this country and abroad. Trump and Farage sharing a stage highlights just how these policies are being mainstreamed. Again, look at Hitler's 25-point plan from 1920, tone down some of the anti-Semitic language and you have a lot of populist policies that people both here and in the wider public would support.Far-right policies will always appeal to some because they demonise groups in such a way that blame for almost anything can be attributed to them. Any personal failing, any unfulfilled ambition, any slight or insult you've felt can be blamed on the immigrant, or the banker, or the foreign power. You clearly recognise their emergence again, but I'm not sure if you recognise your own feelings towards them.



    "tone down some of the anti-Semitic language and you have a lot of populist policies that people both here and in the wider public would support"

    You don't have to tone down the antisemitic language to find support both here and in the wider public (and I'm not talking about the traditional UK far-right).

    HotEnglishAndWelshDeals

    You didn't include the figures to back-up your assertion that 'a large … You didn't include the figures to back-up your assertion that 'a large proportion of which are members or sympathetic to terrorist groups'.Or are there no figures and you're just assuming they would be because of, oh I don't know, some reason that you probably don't need spelled out?Then maybe we can move on to what we do to stop immigrants coming across. Mark2111 above you suggested machine gunning asylum seekers in Calais - is that an option you'd put forward?


    I tend to agree with you, just look at Hungaryand their appaling treatment of the refugees+economic migrants, they are just short of machine gunning them.
    .
    A better solution is to stop them coming in the first place, this means the like of Boris and his counterparts in the Big Three (France and Germany) carnegieeurope.eu/pub…759 just need to bang their heads together and come up with a solution, together the Big Three predessessors were the root cause of the situations and we should have left them well alone. Frack as much oil as possible at home and stop importing oil from that region and go nuclear. The fact that Boris is sort of "Turkish" does help.

    Edited by: "splender" 16th Sep 2016

    splender

    I tend to agree with you, just look at Hungaryand their appaling … I tend to agree with you, just look at Hungaryand their appaling treatment of the refugees+economic migrants, they are just short of machine gunning them..A better solution is to stop them coming in the first place, this means the like of Boris and his counterparts in the Big Three (France and Germany) http://carnegieeurope.eu/publications/?fa=48759 just need to bang their heads together and come up with a solution, together the Big Three predessessors were the root cause of the situations and we should have left them well alone. Frack as much oil as possible at home and stop importing oil from that region and go nuclear. The fact that Boris is sort of "Turkish" does help.



    "the Big Three predessessors were the root cause of the situations"

    The big three were responsible for the Syrian civil war? How?

    The solution is simple, close all borders in Europe.

    Fred Smith

    "the Big Three predessessors were the root cause of the situations" The … "the Big Three predessessors were the root cause of the situations" The big three were responsible for the Syrian civil war? How? The solution is simple, close all borders in Europe.


    Domino effect.

    Banned

    john184

    Over 1.2million asylum claims in the EU in 2015 EU influx by area 2015 … Over 1.2million asylum claims in the EU in 2015 EU influx by area 2015 and it is likely the true number is far worse considering this doesn't count those not claiming asylum.I don't know how any right minded person can argue that this is a good thing when a countries population jumps circa 2% year on year despite no structural or financial measures being taken to accommodate or integrate these groups a large proportion of which are members or sympathetic to terrorist groups.A controlled immigration policy is a necessity if the EU is to survive.



    That's a bit after the Lord Mayor's show.

    The EU is dead in the water. It can't bail out Greece let alone Italy and others. It's only matter of time before there is a uprising against this madness. We are seeing the far right gain ground because there's no hope for most. Just look at the unemployment figures amongst the young in Spain, Italy and others. Immigration is just another 'feather in the cap' of a complete farce called the EU. It's only successful period was the same period when any Tom, Dick or Harry could prosper.

    Thank goodness we as a nation saw the light.

    splender

    Domino effect.



    As the Syrian civil war is about the right to 'fair, free, and competitive elections between multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, and the equal protection of human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, and political freedoms for all people' best blame 18th century Europe.

    I have a notification saying that splender replied to my comment on this thread!

    Where?

    I can't see it!

    Uncertainty is breeding extremes.

    What is now needed is an end to uncertainty, and a firm date fixed in place for early Brexit. This will allow the focus to move away from blame, and to then be on the extremists from all sides.

    The racist and aggressive Neolithic thug from the far right of the BNP, and the intimidatory bullying tactics of the anti Semitic tendencies of the far left from Momentum.

    by delaying the inevitable, Brexit becomes a distraction, an excuse for behaviour that doesn't deserve to be cloaked or disguised for anything other than what it is: Extremism.

    Early Brexit takes away the distraction, it takes away the excuse of a minority looking to apportion blame away from the guilty. What will remain is the spotlight on the criminal.

    Brexit is the solution.
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