ever been sent home with a broken limb from A&E?

49
Found 13th Mar 2015
so I've just been wondering if anyone else has had a really bad experience with A&E.

my son now 12 broke his leg (femur) at nursery with a minor fall on to the soft play area tarmac stuff. Unfortunately no one realised he had as he walked into the nursery classroom. which I'm told is not uncommon as adrenaline can take over. school advised us to take him to A&E and offered to call an ambulance which we declined as we had no idea he'd broken his leg so we just lay him down on the back seat and took him like that.
When we were seen by the triage nurse she was unhelpful and wouldn't check his whole leg even though I asked a number of times for them to remove his trousers and check the full length. doctor came took a cursory glance at his knee and said he's probably just bruised it and to wait in the waiting room while they write up some paracetamol.
Once in the waiting area I wasn't happy with the way he was in pain if it was just a bruised knee so me and hubby carefully pulled his trousers off to find his left thigh really badly swollen.
I rushed him back into the triage room demanding why his thigh was so swollen.
nurse just turns around and says oh I think it's broken. was in too much shock at the time to take it in. But I can't to this day help but think what would have happened if we'd taken him home and followed their advice.
The care after was faultless but I don't understand how they can miss such a severe injury. my boy was stuck on traction for 6 weeks in hospital unable to leave his bed.
I'm still kicking myself for not making a formal complaint.
anyone else been through similar?

I'd also like to add that A&E staff saved my little girls life when she had a very sudden onset of asthma never having had asthma before in her life. I'm indebt to a certain nurse from Brittany who really went above and beyond the call of duty for her.

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49 Comments
Perhaps they're very busy and missed it.
No but my grandmother went into hospital after having a heart attack, was recovering, then suddenly died of internal bleeding. Turned out she'd gotten up in the night and fell down the stairs, they just bundled her back in bed and didn't check anything or tell anyone. She was 87, died with several broken ribs and internal bleeding.
I haven't had any experience with A&E but I've had other bad experiences with the NHS service. What you've just described is only a small symptom of the bigger problem with the NHS. Understaffed and overworked probably sums it up. And while I appreciate their efforts, it does not excuse some very nonchalant behaviour and attitudes some of the NHS staff have adopted. I've come to accept that a large portion of the staff really shouldn't be having anything to do with a medical practice but at the same time, I understand that they need more people than they have. It's a very disheartening situation and I'm at the point where I've almost lost every confidence in the NHS. I'd advice you to go for private care if you can afford it because I don't see things getting better anytime soon.
Yep. Sent home with a broken scaphoid, all fingers and thumb dislocated and other issues from a football accident.

Was told I was fine and got sent home.
Came in the next day complaining about the pain and coldness of my hand/arm and was rushed into emergency surgery.

Told by the nurse that I should have never been sent home with such a severe injury.
Lodged a complaint about the doc/hosp and they put some new rules/standards in place.

Hopefully it won't happen to anyone else.

Edit- this was after several xrays and the 'specialist' dr. Poking around and pulling digits.
Original Poster
ouch! I feel for you teh arn that can't have been a pleasant experience at all. neither was being made to stand on a broken leg to be weighed!

but again I'll say I've had overall really good care but this one bad diagnosis will stay with us for the rest of our lives.
ejadaddy

I haven't had any experience with A&E but I've had other bad experiences … I haven't had any experience with A&E but I've had other bad experiences with the NHS service. What you've just described is only a small symptom of the bigger problem with the NHS. Understaffed and overworked probably sums it up. And while I appreciate their efforts, it does not excuse some very nonchalant behaviour and attitudes some of the NHS staff have adopted. I've come to accept that a large portion of the staff really shouldn't be having anything to do with a medical practice but at the same time, I understand that they need more people than they have. It's a very disheartening situation and I'm at the point where I've almost lost every confidence in the NHS. I'd advice you to go for private care if you can afford it because I don't see things getting better anytime soon.


The biggest problem with the NHS is the users actually, I'm not saying it doesn't have lots of problems, but the users are the biggest. Lots of people go to A&E unnecessarily because they can't get into doctors (or are idiots). They can't get into doctors because it's full of fools going with the tiniest of problems and wasting everyone's time and money. Also the people who get free prescriptions who use a doctors appointment just to get paracetamol so they don't have to pay 16p at Tesco for them.
Original Poster
Error440

No but my grandmother went into hospital after having a heart attack, … No but my grandmother went into hospital after having a heart attack, was recovering, then suddenly died of internal bleeding. Turned out she'd gotten up in the night and fell down the stairs, they just bundled her back in bed and didn't check anything or tell anyone. She was 87, died with several broken ribs and internal bleeding.



Im very sorry for your loss that must have been devastating for you guys.
Original Poster
davewave

Perhaps they're very busy and missed it.



maybe they were but it still doesn't excuse the fact that they totally ignored a parents request to examine the whole leg. which if they had done we wouldn't be having this conversation. It never occurred to us that he could have broken it.
dcx_badass

The biggest problem with the NHS is the users actually, I'm not saying it … The biggest problem with the NHS is the users actually, I'm not saying it doesn't have lots of problems, but the users are the biggest. Lots of people go to A&E unnecessarily because they can't get into doctors (or are idiots). They can't get into doctors because it's full of fools going with the tiniest of problems and wasting everyone's time and money. Also the people who get free prescriptions who use a doctors appointment just to get paracetamol so they don't have to pay 16p at Tesco for them.




No they can't get into the GPs because the appointments are days away and they advise you to go to hospital if you think it's urgent. We have a aging population and not enough GPs to treat them
Original Poster
dcx_badass

The biggest problem with the NHS is the users actually, I'm not saying it … The biggest problem with the NHS is the users actually, I'm not saying it doesn't have lots of problems, but the users are the biggest. Lots of people go to A&E unnecessarily because they can't get into doctors (or are idiots). They can't get into doctors because it's full of fools going with the tiniest of problems and wasting everyone's time and money. Also the people who get free prescriptions who use a doctors appointment just to get paracetamol so they don't have to pay 16p at Tesco for them.



I think that is a major problem. People using A&E for things like headaches or really minor things which can be sorted with paracetamol.
Error440

No but my grandmother went into hospital after having a heart attack, … No but my grandmother went into hospital after having a heart attack, was recovering, then suddenly died of internal bleeding. Turned out she'd gotten up in the night and fell down the stairs, they just bundled her back in bed and didn't check anything or tell anyone. She was 87, died with several broken ribs and internal bleeding.



Bless, What an horrible way to go, Sorry to hear that.
adhkarzf

maybe they were but it still doesn't excuse the fact that they totally … maybe they were but it still doesn't excuse the fact that they totally ignored a parents request to examine the whole leg. which if they had done we wouldn't be having this conversation. It never occurred to us that he could have broken it.




They ignored my calling for extra scans when I was pregnant because he wasn't moving much anymore. Told me I was being silly, then they wouldn't let me in the birth centre when I was in labour and bleeding. Ended up getting in because the ambulance crew refused to leave until I was looked at. Then I got a emergency c section. I lodged a complaint and just got a sorry we will retrain the staff, generic letter yeah rightsure you will.
Error440

No they can't get into the GPs because the appointments are days away and … No they can't get into the GPs because the appointments are days away and they advise you to go to hospital if you think it's urgent. We have a aging population and not enough GPs to treat them


I already addressed why the appointments are days away. Also elderly people who waste appointments just to talk to someone, I'm sure it's not nice been alone, but it's destroying the country. As is people going for minor reasons or free prescriptions.
Original Poster
Error440

They ignored my calling for extra scans when I was pregnant because he … They ignored my calling for extra scans when I was pregnant because he wasn't moving much anymore. Told me I was being silly, then they wouldn't let me in the birth centre when I was in labour and bleeding. Ended up getting in because the ambulance crew refused to leave until I was looked at. Then I got a emergency c section. I lodged a complaint and just got a sorry we will retrain the staff, generic letter yeah rightsure you will.



I hope your baby was ok though. such a shame that the bad experiences sit with us a lot longer than the good ones.
adhkarzf

I hope your baby was ok though. such a shame that the bad experiences sit … I hope your baby was ok though. such a shame that the bad experiences sit with us a lot longer than the good ones.




Yes he's fine thanks
I had an accident on my bike and my wrist was quickly swollen and very painful to even try to move so as I was worried it was possibly broken I went to casualty to have it checked out. After about an hour's wait (fairly short I thought for A&E), someone carefully checked over my wrist, explained to me where each of the bones were and how they were checking if there was a break. They concluded it was a soft tissue injury and would be fine but advised it would be painful over the next couple of days which normal painkillers would help with. They were absolutely correct and it healed fine itself.

I'm obviously sorry to hear of those who have been let down but thought I'd try and balance the thread.

John
Triage nurses make a rapid initial assessment based on a patient or guardian's story of events and general appearance. If you asked 100 medics about what they thought of a child who had taken a tumble on rubber tarmac and had got up again and walked, no-one would dream he had broken his femur. The nurse can't really be blamed for not realising the seriousness of the injury from the initial complaint; femoral fractures come with high impact injuries - RTAs, motorcycle accidents at speed, high impact contact sports and the like. Kids fall over all the time and the chances of falling on rubber and breaking a thigh must be pretty slim. Nice to know his made a good recovery though.
Banned
missleading

Triage nurses make a rapid initial assessment based on a patient or … Triage nurses make a rapid initial assessment based on a patient or guardian's story of events and general appearance. If you asked 100 medics about what they thought of a child who had taken a tumble on rubber tarmac and had got up again and walked, no-one would dream he had broken his femur. The nurse can't really be blamed for not realising the seriousness of the injury from the initial complaint; femoral fractures come with high impact injuries - RTAs, motorcycle accidents at speed, high impact contact sports and the like. Kids fall over all the time and the chances of falling on rubber and breaking a thigh must be pretty slim. Nice to know his made a good recovery though.


+1
missleading

Triage nurses make a rapid initial assessment based on a patient or … Triage nurses make a rapid initial assessment based on a patient or guardian's story of events and general appearance. If you asked 100 medics about what they thought of a child who had taken a tumble on rubber tarmac and had got up again and walked, no-one would dream he had broken his femur. The nurse can't really be blamed for not realising the seriousness of the injury from the initial complaint; femoral fractures come with high impact injuries - RTAs, motorcycle accidents at speed, high impact contact sports and the like. Kids fall over all the time and the chances of falling on rubber and breaking a thigh must be pretty slim. Nice to know his made a good recovery though.



This is what I was thinking too. You seem to imply it was a minor impact, yet no-one actually saw the fall? Perhaps the adrenaline just kicked in, but it might have misled the triage nurse if the fall was inferred to be relatively insignificant; it takes a relatively substantial fall in a toddler to break the femur especially I imagine on a softer surface (even though it was a weaker bone type than adulthood). Still, they should have checked

Source: orthoinfo.aaos.org/top…424


Edited by: "Firefly1" 13th Mar 2015
Yep, I fractured my tibial plateau a few years ago, my knee was massively swollen and I couldn't put any weight on my leg at all or bend it.. I had an x-ray and went back to a&e, the sister I saw told me that there was a star on my x-ray which should mean a break/fracture but she couldn't see one so sent me home with some crutches and a bandage.

I was told to come in the next day for an ultrasound to check if I had ripped any muscles/tendons/ligaments. I went in the next day and had the ultrasound which showed no rips, sent home again to come in the next day for a CT Scan which showed nothing and was sent home and advised to try to start putting weight on it. I left it a few days and still couldn't walk/bend the knee so went back in a&e with my partner who asked a doctor about what I was supposed to do about not being able to walk, her response was that I should "take a chill pill".

Anyway a week after initially going to a&e I went my GP to get a sick note for work as I still couldn't walk and my GP had a look at the x-ray and saw the fracture straight away and sent me back to the hospital with a letter saying it was fractured which needed 8 weeks of wearing a leg brace and 4 months of physio.

Funny thing is the doctor who said I should take a chill pill came into the store I worked in at the time and started kicking off at my partner about her laptop being away for repair.. he calmly suggested she take a chill pill (she obviously did not remember him and didn't see the funny side)
I rang my doctors today and they wouldn't even see me i had stomach pains again all last night. The receptionist asked whats the problem so i explained, then she said we will put you on the list somebody will ring back as they go down the list. About half an hour later a nurse rings back i explain my problem again which has been ongoing and she said you dont need to see the doctor. why i asked, she said we have you MRI results back and they are clear, so why have i had loads of pain again i asked. im not sure but you will have to wait for your follow up appointment at hospital with the consultant. i said what about the Gastroscopy test i had 2 months ago, she said yes its picked up inflammation of the stomach. ok my problem last night was my stomach its been ongoing since last may,the nurse again says we know about it but there is no point in seeing a doctor today you will have to wait for the follow up appointment with the consultant. im angry as iv had so far 3 camera tests 2 of which went up my back side which was clear. The other down in to my stomach where they showed me lots of inflammation and lump type things on the print out after. they sent me for a MRI a week or so after and now iv been waiting 6 weeks for results. pain is almost every day and the other two tests up my backside were both taken last year iv been in pain since last may and in hospital 3 times with server stomach pains or bleeding from my backside and each time iv spent two nights in hospital. its crazy how long it takes between tests and how long it takes to get the follow up appointments after. im only 32 and iv hardly ever been to the docs before untill this started happening to me. Any way after my experience of been told im not going to get to see my doc today i changed doctors today iv had enough. one of the biggest reasons why i never went to the docs in the first place was having to tell the receptionist my problem who then in tern tells a nurse to ring you back and only after telling these two people your personal problems decide whether you get a doc or not.
We have an ageing population and the government cuts funding for the elderly and cuts the social care budget which funds the most vulnerable people. This all has a knock on effect and GP's cannot cope so people are told to ring NHS direct (or re-direct as GP's call them) who advise in most cases to go to A&E who can't cope and are at breaking point. It is no wonder with such pressure that things are missed by even the best staff. And when people lodge a complaint all we hear is lessons will be learnt..............
larrylightweight

I rang my doctors today and they wouldn't even see me i had stomach pains … I rang my doctors today and they wouldn't even see me i had stomach pains again all last night. The receptionist asked whats the problem so i explained, then she said we will put you on the list somebody will ring back as they go down the list. About half an hour later a nurse rings back i explain my problem again which has been ongoing and she said you dont need to see the doctor. why i asked, she said we have you MRI results back and they are clear, so why have i had loads of pain again i asked. im not sure but you will have to wait for your follow up appointment at hospital with the consultant. i said what about the Gastroscopy test i had 2 months ago, she said yes its picked up inflammation of the stomach. ok my problem last night was my stomach its been ongoing since last may,the nurse again says we know about it but there is no point in seeing a doctor today you will have to wait for the follow up appointment with the consultant. im angry as iv had so far 3 camera tests 2 of which went up my back side which was clear. The other down in to my stomach where they showed me lots of inflammation and lump type things on the print out after. they sent me for a MRI a week or so after and now iv been waiting 6 weeks for results. pain is almost every day and the other two tests up my backside were both taken last year iv been in pain since last may and in hospital 3 times with server stomach pains or bleeding from my backside and each time iv spent two nights in hospital. its crazy how long it takes between tests and how long it takes to get the follow up appointments after. im only 32 and iv hardly ever been to the docs before untill this started happening to me. Any way after my experience of been told im not going to get to see my doc today i changed doctors today iv had enough. one of the biggest reasons why i never went to the docs in the first place was having to tell the receptionist my problem who then in tern tells a nurse to ring you back and only after telling these two people your personal problems decide whether you get a doc or not.



whilst i sympathise with your situation, i can kind of see the GPs position on this, they have refered you to a consultant/ specialist because as a gp they cant diagnose whats causing your problems, due to lack of specialist knowledge. The person you really need to see is the specialist, the GP wont be able to give you any new info, or solutions, so its kind of a waste of time seeing them. However the GP should at least be able to prescribe something to help ease the pain in the mean time.
my husband got run over about 20 years ago he was taken to a n e and had xrays told he was fine and sent home his dad had him walking around for days and then they got a phone call from hospiyal saying they had mixed up xrays and he had a broken leg and collar bone!
pipsqueak

We have an ageing population and the government cuts funding for the … We have an ageing population and the government cuts funding for the elderly and cuts the social care budget which funds the most vulnerable people. This all has a knock on effect and GP's cannot cope so people are told to ring NHS direct (or re-direct as GP's call them) who advise in most cases to go to A&E who can't cope and are at breaking point. It is no wonder with such pressure that things are missed by even the best staff. And when people lodge a complaint all we hear is lessons will be learnt..............



Such things were missed back in the day, too.
Spot the abnormality.

http://i.imgur.com/8SzCVqP.jpg
pipsqueak

We have an ageing population and the government cuts funding for the … We have an ageing population and the government cuts funding for the elderly and cuts the social care budget which funds the most vulnerable people. This all has a knock on effect and GP's cannot cope so people are told to ring NHS direct (or re-direct as GP's call them) who advise in most cases to go to A&E who can't cope and are at breaking point. It is no wonder with such pressure that things are missed by even the best staff. And when people lodge a complaint all we hear is lessons will be learnt..............



The problem with 111 (NHS direct) is that when you call them you speak to a person who only has very basic medical knowledge, they follow a script. Say you have the flu and call them, one of the questions will be "do you have any difficulty in breathing?", now some people will answer yes, as having a bunged up nose could be classed as breathing problems, and so 111 will send an A&E ambulance which is totally unnecessary.
last night was considerably worse than normal you would have thought a check over would be priority and maybe something to ease the pain or an anti inflammatory or something. its not like im going there with a cold. any way if its bad over the weekend it will be A&E again and morphine again. by the way the hospital has always advised me when leaving if symptoms get worse go strait to docs. And can a nurse really give advice and take a chance like this its her who stonewalled me not a doctor.
Edited by: "larrylightweight" 13th Mar 2015
sparxuk

The problem with 111 (NHS direct) is that when you call them you speak to … The problem with 111 (NHS direct) is that when you call them you speak to a person who only has very basic medical knowledge, they follow a script. Say you have the flu and call them, one of the questions will be "do you have any difficulty in breathing?", now some people will answer yes, as having a bunged up nose could be classed as breathing problems, and so 111 will send an A&E ambulance which is totally unnecessary.



I wonder how much of this is based on fact and how much is based on what has been read in a tabloid...
Edited by: "RossD89" 13th Mar 2015
larrylightweight

last night was considerably worse than normal you would have thought a … last night was considerably worse than normal you would have thought a check over would be priority and maybe something to ease the pain or an anti inflammatory or something. its not like im going there with a cold. any way if its bad over the weekend it will be A&E again and morphine again. by the way the hospital has always advised me when leaving if symptoms get worse go strait to docs.


of course if your conditon worsens, then further medical advice should be sought, i agree that the whole reason hospitals are struggling is because people arent able to get appointments with their GPs, but i guess there must be a reason why doctor appointments are so much harder to get now than they were say 10 years ago
RossD89

I wonder how much of this is based on fact and how much is based on what … I wonder how much of this is based on fact and how much is based on what has been read in a tabloid...



are you questioning what i have said?
sparxuk

are you questioning what i have said?



I thought that it was quite straightforward...
Edited by: "RossD89" 13th Mar 2015
its from my own experience of dealing with 111
Yes it's partly down to cuts in service/staffing but it's also down to patient type

I've put a screw through my finger using an electric drill - I just put the drill in reverse and removed the screw and put a plaster on it - it healed fine.

I've had severe food poisoning whilst on holiday in Egypt but sucked up the pain to ensure I could get on the flight home.

I've put a garden fork straight through my trainer (yes wrong type of footwear) and into my big toe and the only time I let rip with pain was when the ambulance crew got bored using a saw to cut the fork off and went for the bolt croppers but I had laughs and jokes with the doctors and nurses during the removal of trainer and spike.

I've recently been in A&E and was taken in by ambulance (blue lights/paramedics) and everyone of the NHS staff/ambulance crew were fantastic except for one nurse on the ward. For some unknown reason she decided the tilt on my ward bed was wrong and without asking me she decided it needed adjusting....wtf yet she also left another elderly gentleman sitting for 1hr 15mins waiting for her assistance so he could finish being washed.

I'm all for criticising when it's needed (like error's and other such poor cases of bad care) but we also need to appreciate those that "are in the right job because they care" and we also need to criticise the correct people who waste the valuable time of the NHS resources and I don't consider the elderly part of the blame - that blame needs to be directed at the current government and other "members of the public" (like drug addicts, drunks and those who fail to follow the simple guidelines for general medical issues).
philphil61

Yes it's partly down to cuts in service/staffing but it's also down to … Yes it's partly down to cuts in service/staffing but it's also down to patient typeI've put a screw through my finger using an electric drill - I just put the drill in reverse and removed the screw and put a plaster on it - it healed fine.I've had severe food poisoning whilst on holiday in Egypt but sucked up the pain to ensure I could get on the flight home.I've put a garden fork straight through my trainer (yes wrong type of footwear) and into my big toe and the only time I let rip with pain was when the ambulance crew got bored using a saw to cut the fork off and went for the bolt croppers but I had laughs and jokes with the doctors and nurses during the removal of trainer and spike.I've recently been in A&E and was taken in by ambulance (blue lights/paramedics) and everyone of the NHS staff/ambulance crew were fantastic except for one nurse on the ward. For some unknown reason she decided the tilt on my ward bed was wrong and without asking me she decided it needed adjusting....wtf yet she also left another elderly gentleman sitting for 1hr 15mins waiting for her assistance so he could finish being washed.I'm all for criticising when it's needed (like error's and other such poor cases of bad care) but we also need to appreciate those that "are in the right job because they care" and we also need to criticise the correct people who waste the valuable time of the NHS resources and I don't consider the elderly part of the blame - that blame needs to be directed at the current government and other "members of the public" (like drug addicts, drunks and those who fail to follow the simple guidelines for general medical issues).


agree with everthing you have said, the media are also to blame, they seem hell bent on turning the public against the NHS, as well as creating panic with articles about pandemics which never happen, remember bird flu, swine flu, SARS etc, all of this put unnecessary pressure on the NHS.
sparxuk

agree with everthing you have said, the media are also to blame, they … agree with everthing you have said, the media are also to blame, they seem hell bent on turning the public against the NHS, as well as creating panic with articles about pandemics which never happen, remember bird flu, swine flu, SARS etc, all of this put unnecessary pressure on the NHS.



You seemed to disagree when I implied the same...
kelly1987

Yep, I fractured my tibial plateau a few years ago, my knee was massively … Yep, I fractured my tibial plateau a few years ago, my knee was massively swollen and I couldn't put any weight on my leg at all or bend it.. I had an x-ray and went back to a&e, the sister I saw told me that there was a star on my x-ray which should mean a break/fracture but she couldn't see one so sent me home with some crutches and a bandage.I was told to come in the next day for an ultrasound to check if I had ripped any muscles/tendons/ligaments. I went in the next day and had the ultrasound which showed no rips, sent home again to come in the next day for a CT Scan which showed nothing and was sent home and advised to try to start putting weight on it. I left it a few days and still couldn't walk/bend the knee so went back in a&e with my partner who asked a doctor about what I was supposed to do about not being able to walk, her response was that I should "take a chill pill".Anyway a week after initially going to a&e I went my GP to get a sick note for work as I still couldn't walk and my GP had a look at the x-ray and saw the fracture straight away and sent me back to the hospital with a letter saying it was fractured which needed 8 weeks of wearing a leg brace and 4 months of physio.Funny thing is the doctor who said I should take a chill pill came into the store I worked in at the time and started kicking off at my partner about her laptop being away for repair.. he calmly suggested she take a chill pill (she obviously did not remember him and didn't see the funny side)



I'm sorry you got such bad treatment, but the ending is quite funny I bet your partner enjoyed that

Anyone been sent home with a broken limb from A&E?



Yes, when I was younger I went in with a sprained ankle. Anyhow, Doc sorted my ankle out but sent me home with a random elbow as the doctor said it was shattered and needed a good nights rest.
Edited by: "NEtech" 14th Mar 2015
missleading

Spot the abnormality.



Going to have to pass. I admire people that can read x-rays it must be very tricky. Last time I tried to read my own, I was very wrong. Also none of the medical students I shared it with online got it right either

ETA: I suppose if I hadn't had to wait four weeks for the results to be told to me however, I wouldn't have tried to work out what I was looking at on the x-ray myself.
Edited by: "MSK." 14th Mar 2015
RossD89

You seemed to disagree when I implied the same...





the nhs as a whole is constantly being belittled by the media, they are bent on turning the public against it, the reason for this? who knows, is it the conservatives trying to push through privatisation? maybe. But on the subject of 111, I know from my own personal experience, that it does not work as it was intended. The people who answer the calls are not clinically trained, they run through a series of questions which are designed to flag up immediate life threatening conditions, such as chest pain, and difficulty in breathing. As i said the definition of difficulty in breathing is subjective, and a clinically trained person could differentiate between a blocked nose and life threatening asthma, but 111 was set up on the cheap, and so it just does not work.


Edited by: "sparxuk" 14th Mar 2015
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