failing to comply with red traffic signal, can and shouldIchallenge ?

46
Found 5th Aug 2017
A58 Claypit Leeds.
So, I approachedthe lights as they were changing. I knew I'd have to stop so did so, but on approach it was difficult to see the solid white line because it was very worn and being honest more was missing than actually there. There was also some weird broken white lines running diagonally just after the white line which made it confusing. I came to a stop PAST the line but did not go through the junction.

I have the footage on my car dash cam and I'll upload a screen shot so you can see before judgement.

Has anyone had any past experience of this and could anyone offer any advice ? I'd appreciate any.

There also isn't any information on challenging or fine amount on the initial letter, do I just fill this in then await more information ?

Many thanks in advance
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Don't want to appear negative but that white line is clearly visible. Think the other lines are to catch speeding drivers. I'd like to be able to be more positive but I think you may be stuffed.
46 Comments
Just wait... it will depend on whether the camera was triggered and how long after it had changed to red that you crossed the line...counted in seconds/milliseconds.
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Splodger1019 m ago

Just wait... it will depend on whether the camera was triggered and how …Just wait... it will depend on whether the camera was triggered and how long after it had changed to red that you crossed the line...counted in seconds/milliseconds.


Just to clarify, I HAVE received notice of intended prosecution
Looking at the first picture, you could easily claim that with the broken white line at the front, where tyres have worn it away, you mistook it for (what looks like) part of the speed camera lines. At least that's what they look like to me. If you get summonsed get legal advice as I know that if lines and signage aren't clear it is much easier to challenge and win. For example, double yellow lines should be uninterrupted and finished with a yellow bar across the end. People have had summons quashed because the bar was not across the end.
Edited by: "mrty" 5th Aug 2017
Also are the two red lights showing at the sides for dedicated filter lanes? Ie, do those lights only govern the two outside lanes?
police photos31625245-p9Shq.jpg
Don't want to appear negative but that white line is clearly visible. Think the other lines are to catch speeding drivers. I'd like to be able to be more positive but I think you may be stuffed.
mrty9 m ago

Also are the two red lights showing at the sides for dedicated filter …Also are the two red lights showing at the sides for dedicated filter lanes? Ie, do those lights only govern the two outside lanes?


I'm not sure what they govern, I'll watch my footage and get back to you. Thanks for your help.

All the lights change to red together.
Edited by: "mb021" 5th Aug 2017
psychobitchfromhell3 m ago

Don't want to appear negative but that white line is clearly visible. …Don't want to appear negative but that white line is clearly visible. Think the other lines are to catch speeding drivers. I'd like to be able to be more positive but I think you may be stuffed.


That's OK. I've asked for help so appreciate everyone's perspective. And I appreciate the line is visible from a screen when your only actually looking for the line but when driving it was different, I'm also on the audio questioning my wife as to where the line is.
mb02112 m ago

That's OK. I've asked for help so appreciate everyone's perspective. And I …That's OK. I've asked for help so appreciate everyone's perspective. And I appreciate the line is visible from a screen when your only actually looking for the line but when driving it was different, I'm also on the audio questioning my wife as to where the line is.


I got fined for being in a bus lane a few months ago. Thing is I know I wasn't in the bus lane at the date and time they quoted. Had an appointment for mot a mile away at the time. I couldn't prove it (the garage couldn't do mot as the roller doors had jammed and they couldn't get the car in so I couldn't prove I was there) . Annoying but I just had to bite the bullet and pay the fine. I feel your pain
psychobitchfromhell29 m ago

Don't want to appear negative but that white line is clearly visible. …Don't want to appear negative but that white line is clearly visible. Think the other lines are to catch speeding drivers. I'd like to be able to be more positive but I think you may be stuffed.


I can see the line looking at the dash cam using a phone screen. I would appeal as some of it was worn but you got no chance, its all about the money I'm afraid and the motorist is the biggest fattest cash cow of them all!
The bottom right police image clearly shows you about 15 feet past the line / lights. I can't see how you have any realistic chance of winning an appeal. The fact you couldn't see the lights after stopping might have been a big clue you had gone too far.
Edited by: "chocci" 5th Aug 2017
psychobitchfromhell30 m ago

I got fined for being in a bus lane a few months ago. Thing is I know I …I got fined for being in a bus lane a few months ago. Thing is I know I wasn't in the bus lane at the date and time they quoted. Had an appointment for mot a mile away at the time. I couldn't prove it (the garage couldn't do mot as the roller doors had jammed and they couldn't get the car in so I couldn't prove I was there) . Annoying but I just had to bite the bullet and pay the fine. I feel your pain


Surely they had to provide evidence showing you in the bus lane?
psychobitchfromhell35 m ago

I got fined for being in a bus lane a few months ago. Thing is I know I …I got fined for being in a bus lane a few months ago. Thing is I know I wasn't in the bus lane at the date and time they quoted. Had an appointment for mot a mile away at the time. I couldn't prove it (the garage couldn't do mot as the roller doors had jammed and they couldn't get the car in so I couldn't prove I was there) . Annoying but I just had to bite the bullet and pay the fine. I feel your pain


You dispute a claim of being in a bus lane and yet paid up without requesting evidence?
Whilst I agree that the white solid line is warn and added the fact that there are speed camera markings look confusing

The evidence from the authorities clearly states "time into red 2.8secs"

I'm pretty sure when most people are driving they are more concerned about the colour of traffic lights rather than concentrate on where the white line is (most people know there's a solid white line just before the traffic lights itself).

And as traffic lights turn to amber before red I'm guessing the OP wasn't paying much attention to the road whilst driving

Yes they did eventually stop but legally it's still classed as a RLJ - it's just a pity that not all traffic lights are monitored and/or personal dashcam footage is not accepted by most authorities as evidence. Our roads are becoming unsafer each and every day.

I'm not stating the OP is a bad driver, they are human and therefore, like everyone else, make mistakes and sometimes "we" have to pay for our mistakes.
mb0211 h, 10 m ago

[Image]


That image from your dash cam shows the lights clearly at red well before the stop line, plenty time to stop, considering the amber prior to the red, unless you were speeding...?
chocci19 m ago

Surely they had to provide evidence showing you in the bus lane?


Oh yes. They did. Thing is I know that I couldn't possibly have been where they say I was when they say I was there. For complicated reasons I got the notification very late and at a very stressful time. It was easier just to pay the fine than to dispute it even though I knew it was wrong.
andynicol26 m ago

You dispute a claim of being in a bus lane and yet paid up without …You dispute a claim of being in a bus lane and yet paid up without requesting evidence?


They did provide evidence. Thing is I know I wasn't where they said when they said. It was my birthday so I have a better recollection of where I was on that day than otherwise. I can't prove them wrong and I had enough stress going on in my life at that time. Sometimes you just take it on the chin and move on which is what op may have to do.
psychobitchfromhell51 m ago

They did provide evidence. Thing is I know I wasn't where they said when …They did provide evidence. Thing is I know I wasn't where they said when they said. It was my birthday so I have a better recollection of where I was on that day than otherwise. I can't prove them wrong and I had enough stress going on in my life at that time. Sometimes you just take it on the chin and move on which is what op may have to do.




Wasn't the evidence in way of a photo showing you/your car in the bus lane..?
andynicol15 m ago

Wasn't the evidence in way of a photo showing you/your car in the bus … Wasn't the evidence in way of a photo showing you/your car in the bus lane..?


It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a bus lane. Thing is, I know I wasn't where I am purported to have been be at the time and date on the camera. I don't even think the bus lane is in operation at the time I was supposedly in it. The circumstances were complicated but at the time my head was not in a good enough place to deal with disputing the evidence.
psychobitchfromhell9 m ago

It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a …It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a bus lane. Thing is, I know I wasn't where I am purported to have been be at the time and date on the camera. I don't even think the bus lane is in operation at the time I was supposedly in it. The circumstances were complicated but at the time my head was not in a good enough place to deal with disputing the evidence.


31626185-9Cj4d.jpg

or

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philphil6127 m ago

[Image] or[Image]


Hyundai???? Do I strike you as the Hyundai type? credit me with some taste
mb0213 h, 39 m ago

[Image]


Red light was on way before you approached the line! Even your own dash cam shows you're about to jump the light.
The NIP states you were 2.8 seconds over the Red light. No confusion about the lines either.

You've been caught bang to rights. Pay up and accept what's duly coming to you.
chocci3 h, 35 m ago

The bottom right police image clearly shows you about 15 feet past the …The bottom right police image clearly shows you about 15 feet past the line / lights. I can't see how you have any realistic chance of winning an appeal. The fact you couldn't see the lights after stopping might have been a big clue you had gone too far.


Although the image on the camera doesn't show the lights, the lights were also above the lanes and set further back so I assumed stopping before them was correct. I've never seen a junction before where you actually stop 60 feet before the junction.
philphil613 h, 30 m ago

Whilst I agree that the white solid line is warn and added the fact that …Whilst I agree that the white solid line is warn and added the fact that there are speed camera markings look confusingThe evidence from the authorities clearly states "time into red 2.8secs"I'm pretty sure when most people are driving they are more concerned about the colour of traffic lights rather than concentrate on where the white line is (most people know there's a solid white line just before the traffic lights itself).And as traffic lights turn to amber before red I'm guessing the OP wasn't paying much attention to the road whilst drivingYes they did eventually stop but legally it's still classed as a RLJ - it's just a pity that not all traffic lights are monitored and/or personal dashcam footage is not accepted by most authorities as evidence. Our roads are becoming unsafer each and every day. I'm not stating the OP is a bad driver, they are human and therefore, like everyone else, make mistakes and sometimes "we" have to pay for our mistakes.


The time into red could have been 12.8 seconds... I'm not disputing the fact that the lights were red. I am asking if I should challenge the police as the line was difficult to see as it was badly worn. If your going to put a camera on the junction atleast give the motorist a fair chance.
artnada1 h, 3 m ago

Red light was on way before you approached the line! Even your own dash …Red light was on way before you approached the line! Even your own dash cam shows you're about to jump the light.The NIP states you were 2.8 seconds over the Red light. No confusion about the lines either. You've been caught bang to rights. Pay up and accept what's duly coming to you.


Is there any way I can post the video ? Like i said, I was planning to stop. Had no intention to try go through and wasn't speeding.
Just couldn't see a worn white line.
psychobitchfromhell2 h, 7 m ago

It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a …It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a bus lane. Thing is, I know I wasn't where I am purported to have been be at the time and date on the camera. I don't even think the bus lane is in operation at the time I was supposedly in it. The circumstances were complicated but at the time my head was not in a good enough place to deal with disputing the evidence.


With all due respect, if the evidence clearly shows it is your car, isn't it more likely that you are mistaken about not being there at the time?
Sorry OP, but I have to agree with the others. It looks like you were caught 'bang to rights' (what does that even mean?).

If you're still not convinced, try posting on PePiPoo, there are plenty of experts there, although I think you will just get the same comments as here.
mb02111 m ago

Is there any way I can post the video ? Like i said, I was planning to …Is there any way I can post the video ? Like i said, I was planning to stop. Had no intention to try go through and wasn't speeding.Just couldn't see a worn white line.


You could upload it to Youtube and then post the link here....
psychobitchfromhell2 h, 23 m ago

It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a …It is undoubtedly my car. The back wheel looks like it may have clipped a bus lane. Thing is, I know I wasn't where I am purported to have been be at the time and date on the camera. I don't even think the bus lane is in operation at the time I was supposedly in it. The circumstances were complicated but at the time my head was not in a good enough place to deal with disputing the evidence.


Your car was either stolen or borrowed from a family member/friend then?
mb02140 m ago

Although the image on the camera doesn't show the lights, the lights were …Although the image on the camera doesn't show the lights, the lights were also above the lanes and set further back so I assumed stopping before them was correct. I've never seen a junction before where you actually stop 60 feet before the junction.



There are 3 pairs of red lights on those photos, you've went through the 1st set which is a pedestrian crossing, note the lowered kerbs for wheelchair access at either side, where does this 60 feet come from...?

I'm guessing that the high level pair situated in the middle of the stop lines comes on with either the 1st and/or the 2nd set.

Hard to see the light far left, but your dash cam photo on the approach shows 5 red lights, looks like you were either ;

a/ speeding and couldn't stop at the first set

b/ thought the red lights were the furthest away stop line, and realised as you crossed the pedestrian crossing that there were red lights there?


Re faded stop line, had there been no stop line at all, would you say its perfectly okay to continue through red lights..?
Edited by: "andynicol" 5th Aug 2017
psychobitchfromhell1 h, 49 m ago

Hyundai???? Do I strike you as the Hyundai type? credit me with some …Hyundai???? Do I strike you as the Hyundai type? credit me with some taste



Maybe you should stay off the junk.
deeky28 m ago

With all due respect, if the evidence clearly shows it is your car, isn't …With all due respect, if the evidence clearly shows it is your car, isn't it more likely that you are mistaken about not being there at the time?


With all due respect,I had to take my car for mot at 11am on my birthday. I was at a garage two miles away at the time I was captured on camera. I went straight to the garage from my house, did not pass go, did not collect £200. To be where they said I was would've meant a colossal detour. Thing is, I can't prove that and the stress of having to do that was not something I was up to at the time. I know I should've disputed it and had I been in a better place I certainly would have. It is a bit like being a parent. At the moment my son hates me just because I called him by his full name. Is not my fault, is just the way things are. Paying a fine was easier than dealing with disputing it.
andynicol15 m ago

Your car was either stolen or borrowed from a family member/friend then?


I'm a widow living with my disabled child two hundred and fifty miles from family. He was at college so I might have an issue making that defence stick.
psychobitchfromhell4 m ago

With all due respect,I had to take my car for mot at 11am on my birthday. …With all due respect,I had to take my car for mot at 11am on my birthday. I was at a garage two miles away at the time I was captured on camera. I went straight to the garage from my house, did not pass go, did not collect £200. To be where they said I was would've meant a colossal detour. Thing is, I can't prove that and the stress of having to do that was not something I was up to at the time. I know I should've disputed it and had I been in a better place I certainly would have. It is a bit like being a parent. At the moment my son hates me just because I called him by his full name. Is not my fault, is just the way things are. Paying a fine was easier than dealing with disputing it.


Of course it's your fault, you named him

But re bus lane, very strange indeed, had I been 100% convinced, as you seem to be, I would have queried it..
psychobitchfromhell2 m ago

I'm a widow living with my disabled child two hundred and fifty miles from …I'm a widow living with my disabled child two hundred and fifty miles from family. He was at college so I might have an issue making that defence stick.


I was merely surmising as to why, when your convinced it wasn't you driving, that your car was captured on camera.

As the owner, I think the onus would be on you for the fine anyway, unless of course it was stolen.

Your earlier comments make no mention of who was/was not supposed to be driving.
andynicol30 m ago

Of course it's your fault, you named him But re bus lane, …Of course it's your fault, you named him But re bus lane, very strange indeed, had I been 100% convinced, as you seem to be, I would have queried it..


I named him three beautiful names which were the only three names my husband and I could agree on. We called him his first name because we both liked the name. We called him his second name because I liked the name and I have Scottish connections and it is Scottish for john which was my husband's name. We called him his third name to reflect the fact he is mostly Irish. I still think he has beautiful names but we all have different tastes. I agree I should have queried the bus lane incident but sometimes even when you know you are right, proving you are right and sticking up for your principles is just too hard. When you have to be both parents to a kid who really would've preferred you were the one that died and is happy to let you know, sometimes you take the easy way out
Edited by: "psychobitchfromhell" 5th Aug 2017
mb0215 h, 43 m ago

Just to clarify, I HAVE received notice of intended prosecution



Ah, in which case you are just under 3.0 seconds. You will receive a fixed penalty notice e.g. 3 points and a £60 fine or, if your current licence is clean, the option to take a driver awareness course.. I believe the cost for DA course in South Yorkshire is £95. Over 3 seconds is a court appearance.. red-light jumping is taken as a serious offence - as my wife found out
Edited by: "Splodger101" 5th Aug 2017
deeky1 h, 2 m ago

Sorry OP, but I have to agree with the others. It looks like you were …Sorry OP, but I have to agree with the others. It looks like you were caught 'bang to rights' (what does that even mean?).If you're still not convinced, try posting on PePiPoo, there are plenty of experts there, although I think you will just get the same comments as here.


bang ( dead) to rights
phrase of right
1.
informal
(of a criminal) with positive proof of guilt.
"we've got you bang to rights handling stolen property"
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