French PM Sarkozy says burqas have no place in France . . .

82
Found 22nd Jun 2009
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Not a direct religious stance - he says its because they are a symbol of the subjugation of women . . .

Thoughts?

Please don't turn this into what it doesn't need to be . . . .

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82 Comments

I agree with him. I'm saying nothing more

Banned

what does it need to be

Original Poster

massmail666;5560458

whats a "burqas"?



Think its French for Burka :-D

Banned

mbgringo;5560470

Think its French for Burka :-D


or berk :w00t:

its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before he gets himself into trouble.

Banned

ALICOM007;5560508

its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before … its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before he gets himself into trouble.



:w00t:

Original Poster

Is this a case of politics crossing religious boundaries?

In his first public comments on an issue fuelling passionate debate, he … In his first public comments on an issue fuelling passionate debate, he backed a group of French legislators who expressed concern last week that more and more Muslim women were wearing the garments that cover the face and body from head to toe."The issue of the burqa is not a religious issue, it is a question of freedom and of women's dignity," Sarkozy said."The burqa is not a religious sign, it is a sign of the subjugation, of the submission of women. I want to say solemnly that it will not be welcome on our territory."His remarks won strong applause from legislators during a wide-ranging speech at the grandiose Palace of Versailles.France, home to Europe's largest Muslim minority, is divided over how to reconcile secular values with religious freedom.Many see the burqa as an infringement of women's rights and say it is being imposed on many Muslim women by fundamentalists."We cannot accept that some women in our country are prisoners behind a grille, cut off from social life, deprived of their identity," Sarkozy said.He backed a cross-party initiative by some 60 legislators for a parliamentary commission to find ways to stop the burqa's spread.DIVISIVE ISSUE"All views must be expressed ... I tell you, we must not be ashamed of our values, we must not be afraid of defending them," Sarkozy said.This new debate is reminiscent of a controversy that raged for a decade in France about Muslim girls wearing headscarves in class. Eventually, a law in 2004 banned pupils from wearing conspicuous signs of their religion at state schools.Critics say the law stigmatised Muslims at a time when the country should be trying to heal a rift between mainstream society and many youths from an immigrant background, caused by decades of discrimination on the job and housing markets.The sight of women in burqas is rare in most parts of France. Statistics are not available but anecdotal evidence suggests that in some areas the number wearing them is rising.Cabinet members are divided on whether a ban is appropriate.The secretary of state in charge of regenerating poor urban neighbourhoods, feminist firebrand Fadela Amara, supports a total ban, which a government spokesman said was possible.But Immigration Minister Eric Besson said a ban wouldn't work, while the secretary of state in charge of families, Nadine Morano, warned that some women could end up confined to their homes if they were not allowed to go out wearing burqas.A government-approved body representing French Muslims spoke out against a ban Saturday, saying it would breach individual freedoms and stigmatise Muslims

ALICOM007;5560508

its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before … its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before he gets himself into trouble.



he seems to think it is NOT their choice-I do not know enough about the muslim religion to prove or disprove this.

barky;5560728

he seems to think it is NOT their choice-I do not know enough about the … he seems to think it is NOT their choice-I do not know enough about the muslim religion to prove or disprove this.



the burka might be abit extreme but i think france has a problem with religion for some reason.
its not the first time they bring up these topics, they baned students from wearing the hijab and religious symbols in school.

...how would he feel if other countries banned the beret EH???

billyX;5560852

...how would he feel if other countries banned the beret EH???



haven't we already ?

From what I know the Burkha(Full body gown) is a cultural dress as opposed to the Hijab(Headscarf) and came about from the aristocracy in the middle east years ago. The aristocratic women were considered above the ordinary man and it was deemed that a normal man was not good enough to be able to lok at these women, hence the full body gown. The Hijab came about as a result of the islamic religion and there are different interpretations as to why women should wear it but most muslims would say it is so a women dresses modestly(but I would have thought that it would have been better to cover a womans chest or bum as more guys find that attractive on a woman than their hair, but I do have to admit I like a woman with nice hair )
Personally I feel that the full body gown has no place in any society and as someone who believes that the women are just as equal as men I feel that it is discriminating against women immeasurably to the point where I feel that they could be classed as subhuman.
I am currently working with a family who are strict muslim, the man makes his wife wear the full burkha, doesnt even let me see her at all as he makes sure she stays locked in the kitchen when Im round, when I have been round and the husband isnt in she speaks through the door, wont open it and asks me to ring her on the home phone, I mean WTF????

I could maybe understand if the burkha covered the body but the face is how we recognise people. If I cant see your face how do I know who you are, what you are thinking, are you happy, sad etc. The face also gives of signals and tells consciously such as smiling or subconsciously such as movement of the eyes. How can I develop any sort of relationship(friendships, working relationships etc) with a person who is not willing to show me her face because "men are classed as pervs so I cant show my face to anyone who is not directly related to me and have to wear a full black gown " or going back to the aristocracy thing " Im better than the comman person or man and dont have to show them my face"

Overall I feel that the Burkha is a means by which men from a particular culture have used to ensure that women remain 2nd class citizens in comparison to men and they have used religion to justify it.

Islam teaches that the path to heaven is beneath your mothers feet(note it is mother and not father). I interpret this to mean that a mother(female) is integral to the path to salvation. If god had intended men to be higher than women then I dont think this would have the case. Remember than upon conception all human foetus's have 2 X(female) chromosomes and at about 40 days into the cycle the gender is decided, and either stays the same or part of the X chromosomes falls off and becomes a Y and turns foetus into a boy(XY). To those muslims who dont think this has any relevance the 40 day concept of when the foetus's sex is chosen is actually in the Koran and has been confirmed by modern science . There is a reason why the human foetus has female as its is default sex its just that men dont wish to acknowledge this
.
The fact the Saudi Arabia, which could be classed as the birthplace of Islam treats its women like absolute 2nd class citizens by not letting them vote, work in certain jobs or even drive indicates that the notion of treating women lower than men is cultural backed the male interpretation of religion.

Its not limited to religion or culture, the fact that women are usually paid less for the doing the same job as their male counterparts, less likely to reacht the top jobs etc here in the U.K indicates that that women are treated lower than men even in liberal and advanced socities.

Forget all the genocides and holocausts that have taken place, the biggest injustice in the history of human kind has been the mistreatment of women by men. 50% of humans have been mistreated prob from the beginning of the species and continue to be mistreated to this day. As a man myself I will never understand how some men treat women as lower than a man just because of their gender because at the end of the day women are our mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, girlfriends etc
99.9% of human innovation, discoveries, progression of science etc has been done by the male of the species. Is this because men are clever, more resourceful than women or is it because man has not allowed the woman to use her brain to the same potential as the man has used his. I would personally say the latter.

Sorry for the essay type post

ALICOM007;5560508

its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before … its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before he gets himself into trouble.




I can't for one moment think that you seriously believe that.

ALICOM007;5560508

its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before … its the womens choice to wear it. i think he should just shut up before he gets himself into trouble.



:? really not from what i have seen

Supermod

...just you wait...anything with an "urka"...Joanna Lumley will be involved...

magicjay1986;5562485

...just you wait...anything with an "urka"...Joanna Lumley will be … ...just you wait...anything with an "urka"...Joanna Lumley will be involved...



:?

barky;5560728

he seems to think it is NOT their choice-I do not know enough about the … he seems to think it is NOT their choice-I do not know enough about the muslim religion to prove or disprove this.



I read an interesting article a while back from a well known Muslim lady who was on Channel4 quite a bit at the time, she called herself a modern Muslim as she followed many of the traditions but disagreed with some and the Burqa was one she strongly disagreed with.

One day she was being followed by a person wearing a Burqa which she said made her uncomfortable as she couldn't see any of this person's features, she was followed all the way home and at her doorstep the lady asked if she could please come in. Once in the house the lady took off her Burqa which was hiding a girl in her late teens who had been badly beaten. It turned out she'd wanted to go to University to study chemistry however her father and brother didn't want her to so they both beat her up every time she mentioned it. As she had to wear the Burqa any time she was outside all her bruises and cuts were conveniently hidden so no-one asked any questions. In her case while not common it wasn't unheard of and the outfit definitely wasn't her choice although others do seem to want to wear it.

The issue is frequently turned into a religious one but I think it's more basic than that, when I go into certain shops I have to take my motorbike helmet off because people can't see my face otherwise. That's entirely reasonable to me and similarly I don't walk down the street with the helmet on, it's obviously a similar case for Burqas.

John

starsparkle2311;5564636

waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much typing in this thread:w00t:



too much writing? Just a few extra a's but other than that it's pretty concise

Banned

look, its really simple.

burka/burqa/hijaab - its pretty much the same thing.

first - it is different from normal clothing....it is meant to be slightly baggy. there is a reason for this.

second - it IS the choice of the woman to wear it or not. EVERYONE has a choice. dont make this into a 'she is being forced to wear it issue'
dont care what youve heard or seen.

third -

why do they wear this? simply put, if a woman is covered in clothing which does not reveal her shape, or her face, a man wont be able to set his gaze upon her. if a man does not see her beauty, he will not commit sin by naughty thoughts. which is why it is a religious act to wear the clothing.

people are turned on by different things, face, b**bs, bum, hands, legs, hair, eyes, eyebrows, the list is endless.

by covering up, you avoid punishing a bloke with thoughts of what could be.
a mans mind is to be pure of ill thoughts. (masturbation isnt allowed ya see)

the power of sex can be an uncontrollable urge and it can take up over whatever activity you are doing.

in the religion, they consider a womans beauty to be like a diamond...

would you leave a precious diamond to get scratched or stolen in the street? no, you would wrap it in velvet. and that is how the hijab protects a woman, who is more precious than any jewel.

I know burkas are supposed to protect the ladies modesty, but after speaking to a mate who works in a Saudi branch of Agent provocateur, as soon as I see a slim woman in a burka, its sets my imagination off, and I often wonder, are they wearing stockings and suspenders under their conservative garments.

Banned

DKLS;5569072

I know burkas are supposed to protect the ladies modesty, but after … I know burkas are supposed to protect the ladies modesty, but after speaking to a mate who works in a Saudi branch of Agent provocateur, as soon as I see a slim woman in a burka, its sets my imagination off, and I often wonder, are they wearing stockings and suspenders under their conservative garments.



thats right. even burkas set people off...curiosity is what does it i know where you are coming from. but the modesty means you will never know and i think thats why theyre important to them.

as muslims are not allowed to have sex before marraige, their beauty is only for their husbands, and the diamond metaphor (was it? lol) implies that only the husband should get to see its beauty, no one else.


thats my study of it anyway, just dont want this thread turning into a hate thread and silly debate about religious technicalities and stuff like 'oh my friend wears one and she is forced into it' blah blah

Banned

kapows;5569065

look, its really simple.burka/burqa/hijaab - its pretty much the same … look, its really simple.burka/burqa/hijaab - its pretty much the same thing.first - it is different from normal clothing....it is meant to be slightly baggy. there is a reason for this.second - it IS the choice of the woman to wear it or not. EVERYONE has a choice. dont make this into a 'she is being forced to wear it issue'dont care what youve heard or seen.third - why do they wear this? simply put, if a woman is covered in clothing which does not reveal her shape, or her face, a man wont be able to set his gaze upon her. if a man does not see her beauty, he will not commit sin by naughty thoughts. which is why it is a religious act to wear the clothing.people are turned on by different things, face, b**bs, bum, hands, legs, hair, eyes, eyebrows, the list is endless.by covering up, you avoid punishing a bloke with thoughts of what could be.a mans mind is to be pure of ill thoughts. (masturbation isnt allowed ya see)the power of sex can be an uncontrollable urge and it can take up over whatever activity you are doing.in the religion, they consider a womans beauty to be like a diamond...would you leave a precious diamond to get scratched or stolen in the street? no, you would wrap it in velvet. and that is how the hijab protects a woman, who is more precious than any jewel.



Sorry, but if you feed someone a diet of this dogma then surely they're going to feel some sort of obligation to wear it, thus forcing them to wear it.

Banned

lol i dont feed them anything...its what they believe in. you are only obligated to do somehting you want. nobody is imposing anything on you.

you can call it dogma, some call it faith and responsibility

Banned

farmer gringo! where you been hidin out lol!

we shoud bring back the dating center :-D

Banned

kapows;5569162

lol i dont feed them anything...its what they believe in.you can call it … lol i dont feed them anything...its what they believe in.you can call it dogma, some call it faith and responsibility



Either way, if you propogate these type of beliefs you're literally guilting women into wearing something, thus removing the choice (unless they don't want to get to heaven).

It's a way of repressing women from expressing their sexuality, but then you have to contend with accusations of restricting people's freedom of religion.

It's a toughie and the problem is that whilst society has changed, religious dogma hasn't.

Original Poster

kapows;5569173

farmer gringo! where you been hidin out lol!we shoud bring back the … farmer gringo! where you been hidin out lol!we shoud bring back the dating center :-D



Its coming back tonight bud - just for you :-D




Ooh, arr :thumbsup:

Banned

FilthAndFurry;5569185

Either way, if you propogate these type of beliefs you're literally … Either way, if you propogate these type of beliefs you're literally guilting women into wearing something, thus removing the choice (unless they don't want to get to heaven).It's a way of repressing women from expressing their sexuality, but then you have to contend with accusations of restricting people's freedom of religion. It's a toughie and the problem is that whilst society has changed, religious dogma hasn't.



loll this could go on forever! they have a choice to do a good thing and they do it. thats what they believe in. what if they do get to heaven? these are questions which we, whilst alive, can never answer. so no point questioning these ethics?

these women dont feel repressed in anyway, if you ask them, majority of them are happy and understand that even if it wasnt part of a religion, they would still prefer to cover up for other reasons.
so there is no oppression or repression or recession loll
society cannot be compared to religion? thats totally different

kapows - I worry that you believe what you've been told and that women have a choice, but then you don't want to hear from anyone else who knows differently. Some women might choose to wear it, but there are many many who have no 'real' choice. I completely agree with Sarkozy. I believe there should be total equality between men and women, and how can this be, if we have in the 21st century women wearing burquas. It is degrading.

Banned

kapows;5569214

loll this could go on forever! they have a choice to do a good thing and … loll this could go on forever! they have a choice to do a good thing and they do it. thats what they believe in. what if they do get to heaven? these are questions which we, whilst alive, can never answer. so no point questioning these ethics?these women dont feel repressed in anyway, if you ask them, majority of them are happy and understand that even if it wasnt part of a religion, they would still prefer to cover up for other reasons.so there is no oppression or repression or recession lollsociety cannot be compared to religion? thats totally different



That bold bit is one of the most absurd things I ever read.

Women for hundreds of years were denied the right to vote, to have the same rights as men and the arguments used by men to justify it are exactly the same ones you've just written above.

Contentment through ignorance is no way to live one's life.

Banned

but when women were denied to vote....they said they want to vote. they made it clear they want the same rights etc

i dont hear women saying..they dont want the veil?

bluedave -
if the women that wear it dont find it degrading, then why do you think theyre degrading themselves?
have you even gone to ask any woman in a burka why she does it? dont make silly assumptions like i dont like hearing anyone else.
i know some women feel forced due to tradition/family pressure/ im not saying it doesnt exist. thats not the argument here.

Banned

Contentment through ignorance is no way to live one's life



practice what you preach filthandfurry??

kapows;5569254

but when women were denied to vote....they said they want to vote. they … but when women were denied to vote....they said they want to vote. they made it clear they want the same rights etci dont hear women saying..they dont want the veil?bluedave - if the women that wear it dont find it degrading, then why do you think theyre degrading themselves?have you even gone to ask any woman in a burka why she does it? dont make silly assumptions like i dont like hearing anyone else.i know some women feel forced due to tradition/family pressure/ im not saying it doesnt exist. thats not the argument here.



Well we can see it isn't part of your argument

Banned

autolesbona;5569287

Well we can see it isn't part of your argument



is that all you had to say? smart. very smart.

dont turn it into what it doesnt need to be - mbgringo

Banned

kapows;5569254

but when women were denied to vote....they said they want to vote. they … but when women were denied to vote....they said they want to vote. they made it clear they want the same rights etci dont hear women saying..they dont want the veil?



If only we'd told them they wouldn't have got into heaven if they demanded the vote.:roll:

My point was that for hundreds of years, the arguments used by weak men to maintain patriarchal dominance were similar to your argument in certain respects.

Banned

FilthAndFurry;5569327

If only we'd told them they wouldn't have got into heaven if they … If only we'd told them they wouldn't have got into heaven if they demanded the vote.:roll:My point was that for hundreds of years, the arguments used by weak men to maintain patriarchal dominance was similar to your argument in certain respects.



my argument for wearing the veil??

lol theres no point in using terms like weak men, dominance etc it makes it sound like you need to emphasise a weak point.

its not my argument, its what they believe in, its their understanding from a religious standpoint, if you havnt reached that level of understanding of the religion or their mindset, then why bother to make sense of it?

you'll just come out dumb and dumber. :thumbsup:

voting affects the lives of every individual socially, and is a social necessity where applicable.

wearing a veil is a decision that only affects the veil wearer. no one else. im not gonna lose my right to vote if i dont wear the veil. you cant seem to differentiate. which is an indication of what you understand and dont understand..or maybe youre pulling a smart one and turning it around in places on purpose?

im gonna rest this here. :roll:

Banned

You don't seem to be grasping what I'm saying. I've re-read it and it's clear enough, imo, for me to not have to reiterate or repeat it.

I think there's a certain naivety in not seeing a link between what you say is acceptable for a person to wear, and how that affects their standing in society.

But again, all the points have been made and you've either conflated them on purpose to muddy the debate or you genuinely don't understand.

I understand it's their religion and the conflict between individual rights and religious freedoms - it's probably the most important conflict in society today. I think you've been unduly defensive though. Sorry if the terms I used offended in some way.

Let other countries learn from it, :oops:

What he is saying doesn't make sense. The issue he claims to have is that women are being forced. So why not deal with the forcing, that is the main point, not the actual item of clothing.

What about the women who want to wear it? Isn't stopping someone wearing what they want worse? That way you are forcing them to wear something else which is pretty much what he's complaining about in the first place :s

Did none of you live in the 80s? I've seen more intrusive fashion than a simple burka.

For the record I know of quite a few women who choose to wear it.

n00b;5569496

What he is saying doesn't make sense. The issue he claims to have is that … What he is saying doesn't make sense. The issue he claims to have is that women are being forced. So why not deal with the forcing, that is the main point, not the actual item of clothing. What about the women who want to wear it? Isn't stopping someone wearing what they want worse? That way you are forcing them to wear something else which is pretty much what he's complaining about in the first place :s Did none of you live in the 80s? I've seen more intrusive fashion than a simple burka.For the record I know of quite a few women who choose to wear it.



Choose to wear it from their own free will or through generations of indoctorination and tradition?
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