I'll just leave this here

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33 Comments

Its social cleansing pure and simple – something must be wrong here when you have the UN criticising the Conservatives over their treatment of the disabled and even some (admittedly rare) Tory MP’s that actually have an ounce of compassion (and a reflection in a mirror) are concerned over the disaster that is universal credit.

People are actually surprised drastic cuts in the name of austerity that have basically saved nothing have actually cost the lives of the most vulnerable in our society?

Keep up the cuts! We must see this payment plan through to the end.

Original Poster

groenleader8 m ago

Keep up the cuts! We must see this payment plan through to the end.


Agreed sod the countries coffers, who cares that are economy is the slowest recovering in Europe, down there with Greece, who cares that our debt and deficit has increased under the tories, the rich need more, more and more to hide offshore.

“suggests“ ... “may have“ ... “The Department of Health said “firm conclusions” cannot be drawn from this work, and independent academics warned the funding figures were “speculative” ... “The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” ... “As the researchers themselves note, this study cannot be used to draw any firm conclusions about the cause of excess deaths”

Predikuesi18 m ago

“suggests“ ... “may have“ ... “The Department of Health said “firm conclusi …“suggests“ ... “may have“ ... “The Department of Health said “firm conclusions” cannot be drawn from this work, and independent academics warned the funding figures were “speculative” ... “The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” ... “As the researchers themselves note, this study cannot be used to draw any firm conclusions about the cause of excess deaths”



Could have all been coincidence, what is your opinion on the correlation?

Someone's got to pay for cuts in corporation tax , top rate ofincome tax and subsidising cheap labour from Eastern Europe .

Looks like a load if carp to me tbh. Austerity is usually more to do with fixing the mess left by a previous government. No matter who is in charge they will make a balls up of it. Theres now talk of giving iran £450m to free one person. Basically a ransom payment and truly ridiculous considering the mess our own country is in.

Far too much spent on foreign aid. Its fairly obvious if you sort your own affairs out first you end up in a far better position to help the less fortunate whereas if you try to do this while your in a mess yourself everyone ends up a mess

CoeK24 m ago

Could have all been coincidence, what is your opinion on the correlation?


I think that it’s best to go along with the overriding fact offered in this academic paper, that is, no “firm conclusions about the cause of excess deaths“. So until firm facts are put forward, there is no point in any further speculation.
Edited by: "Predikuesi" 17th Nov 2017

123batman3219 m ago

Looks like a load if carp to me tbh. Austerity is usually more to do with …Looks like a load if carp to me tbh. Austerity is usually more to do with fixing the mess left by a previous government. No matter who is in charge they will make a balls up of it. Theres now talk of giving iran £450m to free one person. Basically a ransom payment and truly ridiculous considering the mess our own country is in. Far too much spent on foreign aid. Its fairly obvious if you sort your own affairs out first you end up in a far better position to help the less fortunate whereas if you try to do this while your in a mess yourself everyone ends up a mess



Giving iran £450 million to free one person is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard Put the daily mail down. We owe Iran the money because we sold them tanks in the late 70’s and never bothered our asses to make o deliver them.
Edited by: "Dannyrobbo" 17th Nov 2017

freakstyler1 h, 6 m ago

Its social cleansing pure and simple – something must be wrong here when y …Its social cleansing pure and simple – something must be wrong here when you have the UN criticising the Conservatives over their treatment of the disabled and even some (admittedly rare) Tory MP’s that actually have an ounce of compassion (and a reflection in a mirror) are concerned over the disaster that is universal credit.People are actually surprised drastic cuts in the name of austerity that have basically saved nothing have actually cost the lives of the most vulnerable in our society?


Agreed the UN is probably wrong as they are in most cases, a corrupt organization fueled by cronyism and backhanders, and thats after speaking to someone who worked for them.

Predikuesi9 m ago

I think that it’s best to go along with the overriding fact offered in t …I think that it’s best to go along with the overriding fact offered in this academic paper, that is, no “firm conclusions about the cause of excess deaths“. So until firm facts are put forward, there is no point in any further speculation.



That isn't something that will ever be a firm fact. I was really asking for your opinion on the correlation rather than the causation, do you think there is a link or do you think it is coincidence? I'm really only after your opinion, do you have one on the matter?

Predikuesi1 h, 8 m ago

“suggests“ ... “may have“ ... “The Department of Health said “firm conclusi …“suggests“ ... “may have“ ... “The Department of Health said “firm conclusions” cannot be drawn from this work, and independent academics warned the funding figures were “speculative” ... “The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” ... “As the researchers themselves note, this study cannot be used to draw any firm conclusions about the cause of excess deaths”



Business CEOs may not necessarily need firm conclusions to make am investment decision about a transformational change. They may sometimes use qualitative analyses (as indicated by your choice of the phrases) rather than quantitative analyses. This is the key, a business decision made as a result of qualitative analyses need to have stochastic methods, for example, to analyse the effects of investment change.

For some balance...under Conservatives

Lower unemployment. Youth unemployment down by over 400,000, Long term unemployment down by 400,000, 600,000 more disabled people are in work

There are over 3 million more jobs in this country than seven years ago.


The number of workers on low pay in the UK has fallen by more than 300,000 following the Conservatives’ introduction of the national living wage, a think tank says.

According to the Resolution Foundation, this is the biggest year-on-year fall in low pay since 1977 - with its report claiming the national living wage has not been the "jobs-killing disaster" some feared.

CoeK34 m ago

That isn't something that will ever be a firm fact. I was really asking …That isn't something that will ever be a firm fact. I was really asking for your opinion on the correlation rather than the causation, do you think there is a link or do you think it is coincidence? I'm really only after your opinion, do you have one on the matter?



The critical useful point, as I just commented above, is not what was said using those tentative phrases, but rather , to agree with mathematical professors in our best universities and consultancy firms who specialise in qualitative and quantitative tools, on which numerical methods that could be used to analyse the impact of funding changes.

To this end, usually newspaper reporters are woefully poor in reporting significance of scientific and numerical methods as they lack 100% the graduate university applied numercial skills, therefore a reader needs to access the original academic source so as to assess and to evalute how meaningful the source material is.

Critically the public is easily fooled by newspapers in science and technology. In this case, this topic is about social science, in social science there is a debate as to whether social science is truly a science as very often there is no mathematical firm conclusion like you have in science and engineering where say, in science such as physics you have the Newtons laws of motion providing conclusively the answers to problems. In social sciences you may never get to these firm conclusions. Another example is numerical analysis on macro-economics and micro-economics, these are mathematical models and they are not firm equations like Newton's laws of motion (which themselves need to have quantum mechanics and other advanced theories).

In conclusion, in social science, such as this case at UCL, social policies are derived from mathematical models, the firm conclusion is a target aim rather than the end to justify the means. You will be a fool to only ever deploy a social policy based on a firm conclusion as to when it is firm?! That's where the newspaper and media do not say.
Edited by: "splender" 17th Nov 2017

davewave8 m ago

For some balance...under ConservativesLower unemployment. Youth …For some balance...under ConservativesLower unemployment. Youth unemployment down by over 400,000, Long term unemployment down by 400,000, 600,000 more disabled people are in work There are over 3 million more jobs in this country than seven years ago. The number of workers on low pay in the UK has fallen by more than 300,000 following the Conservatives’ introduction of the national living wage, a think tank says.According to the Resolution Foundation, this is the biggest year-on-year fall in low pay since 1977 - with its report claiming the national living wage has not been the "jobs-killing disaster" some feared.



Is it too much to ask our government to perform well in multiple areas?

fake news outlet
after listening to the Donald i know only use the only reputable news outlet RT

social care has been broken for decades, not just this one but successive governments including labour and tory are guilty really winds me up when parties play the how bad it is and don't think about what a mess it was under them.

Today we all pay extra council tax for social care, your council gets the money started a few years ago, to allow extra funding to go towards social care. In our area we don't have any council care homes, all closed down in the last two years including time when the new charge was set. We had great grandparents who needed to go into a home and they couldn't together. the council then decided they could live on their own with extra care, now there is only one of them and dementia, stroke and no memory but she can live on her own!

And we live in a labour council area within the labour heartland so only one party to blame.

Below is what our council tax at band A goes towards. Look what we spend most money on from council tax




Service

Amount

Education

£1.92

Highways, roads, transport and street lighting

85p

Adult Social Care

£6.28

Children's Social Care

£3.08

Housing

10p

Cultural services (including libraries)

87p

Planning and development

1p

Public Health

£2.13Environmental services (including street lighting)

64p

Refuse collection and disposal

£1.30

Other services

0p

Integrated Transport Authority

£1.26
Edited by: "eslick" 17th Nov 2017

eslick49 m ago

social care has been broken for decades, not just this one but successive …social care has been broken for decades, not just this one but successive governments including labour and tory are guilty really winds me up when parties play the how bad it is and don't think about what a mess it was under them. Today we all pay extra council tax for social care, your council gets the money started a few years ago, to allow extra funding to go towards social care. In our area we don't have any council care homes, all closed down in the last two years including time when the new charge was set. We had great grandparents who needed to go into a home and they couldn't together. the council then decided they could live on their own with extra care, now there is only one of them and dementia, stroke and no memory but she can live on her own!And we live in a labour council area within the labour heartland so only one party to blame.Below is what our council tax at band A goes towards. Look what we spend most money on from council tax ServiceAmountEducation£1.92Highways, roads, transport and street lighting85pAdult Social Care£6.28Children's Social Care£3.08Housing10pCultural services (including libraries)87pPlanning and development1pPublic Health£2.13Environmental services (including street lighting)64pRefuse collection and disposal£1.30Other services0pIntegrated Transport Authority£1.26



Correct, social sciences and econometrics already computed models to state that people live longer and needed more social care decades ago and continue to do so.

One example solution many decades ago was to save more by less consumption and put money into a social fund. Additional increasing the availability of social housing and allow compulsory purchase of land for housing would have suppressed the house prices, rent and mortgage which meant that for an unchanged or fixed income/salary, less money would have been needed to pay for house,rent and mortagage thus allowing the individuals to save some money for their own care or to be taxed into a social fund for collective social care.


We failed to realise the charisma of maths from social scientists as opposed to the charisma of well-articulated politicians and policy CEOs.

One main cause of most of our ills is the pre-dominance of low interest rates as a solution in macroeconomics.
Edited by: "splender" 17th Nov 2017

mattmerch43 m ago

fake news outlet after listening to the Donald i know only use the only …fake news outlet after listening to the Donald i know only use the only reputable news outlet RT



Which Donald do you know?

davewave1 h, 6 m ago

For some balance...under ConservativesLower unemployment. Youth …For some balance...under ConservativesLower unemployment. Youth unemployment down by over 400,000, Long term unemployment down by 400,000, 600,000 more disabled people are in work There are over 3 million more jobs in this country than seven years ago. The number of workers on low pay in the UK has fallen by more than 300,000 following the Conservatives’ introduction of the national living wage, a think tank says.According to the Resolution Foundation, this is the biggest year-on-year fall in low pay since 1977 - with its report claiming the national living wage has not been the "jobs-killing disaster" some feared.


The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 fewer hospital beds .
in 2010 the average wait to see a gp was 48 hours .. In 2016 it was 2 weeks.
social care budget cut to the bone some 20% down since 2009.
20000 fewer police officers since 2009.
20000 fewer armed forces.
10000 fewer fire fighters
50000 registered disabled had their mobility vehicles taken away .
A 23% decline in house building since 2010.
The longest pay squeeze since the Crimean war.
The national debt forecast £1.83trillion in March 2018.. In 2009 it was half of that.

plodging3 m ago

The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 …The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 fewer hospital beds .in 2010 the average wait to see a gp was 48 hours .. In 2016 it was 2 weeks.social care budget cut to the bone some 20% down since 2009.20000 fewer police officers since 2009.20000 fewer armed forces.10000 fewer fire fighters 50000 registered disabled had their mobility vehicles taken away .A 23% decline in house building since 2010.The longest pay squeeze since the Crimean war.The national debt forecast £1.83trillion in March 2018.. In 2009 it was half of that.



don't leave that last line, we all know why the figures are where they are now and what happened pre 2009, make hay while the sun shined was always said about Brown and sadly we didn't have anything left in the kitty for times of issues

plodging24 m ago

The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 …The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 fewer hospital beds .in 2010 the average wait to see a gp was 48 hours .. In 2016 it was 2 weeks.social care budget cut to the bone some 20% down since 2009.20000 fewer police officers since 2009.20000 fewer armed forces.10000 fewer fire fighters 50000 registered disabled had their mobility vehicles taken away .A 23% decline in house building since 2010.The longest pay squeeze since the Crimean war.The national debt forecast £1.83trillion in March 2018.. In 2009 it was half of that.



No intention of getting into the granular detail of all of the stated figures - life is too short for both of us. To take just one example of interest though, can you point me to the report that supports the assertion that the average waiting time to see a GP in 2016 was 2 weeks. I assume this 2 week average period does not include the period awaiting an agreed schedule of future appointments for an ongoing condition. If this is truly the average waiting time across the UK for patients seeking a prompt assessment, I will be truly shocked, and would feel blessed as my family have never experienced anything other than same day appointments.

eslick23 m ago

don't leave that last line, we all know why the figures are where they are …don't leave that last line, we all know why the figures are where they are now and what happened pre 2009, make hay while the sun shined was always said about Brown and sadly we didn't have anything left in the kitty for times of issues



How can "we" have money left in the kitty or piggy bank when we have such excessively large growths in the services sector?! These services do things that we used to do ourselves in our own time which had cost "nothing" so that money could be put into kitties and piggy banks (services growth causes employment for things that we used to care for ourselves for "no cost" :-

1. Cook own meals -> ready meals and take-aways (cooked in factories or in the High Street)
2. Coffee and tea in vacumm flasks or workplace -> Starbucks, Nero etc. in my town shops which sell coffee far exceed any other type of shops.
3. Child care --> nurseries
4. Community halls, walks, running --> health clubs and spa
5. Bus + walk -> Uber + minicabs
6. Wash car at the weekend outside your house for exercise -> car wash run by immigrants
7. Own repairs around the house and sewing etc. -> throw out and buy new imports
8. buy house to live -> buy house to let + growth in letting agents and estate service companies
9. vanish your own nails -> go to nail shop in the High Street

...etc.

Of course we do need all of the above services to save people's time but not so excessively to such proliferation of people servicing each other so extensively.
Edited by: "splender" 17th Nov 2017

plodging1 h, 55 m ago

The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 …The NHS is in its knees, people lying on trolleys in corridors .15000 fewer hospital beds .in 2010 the average wait to see a gp was 48 hours .. In 2016 it was 2 weeks.social care budget cut to the bone some 20% down since 2009.20000 fewer police officers since 2009.20000 fewer armed forces.10000 fewer fire fighters 50000 registered disabled had their mobility vehicles taken away .A 23% decline in house building since 2010.The longest pay squeeze since the Crimean war.The national debt forecast £1.83trillion in March 2018.. In 2009 it was half of that.


Care to show me the link to the 'less housing than 2010'
Even the guardian states record high since 2008.theguardian.com/mon…008
I think people should have a wander round the country.

davewave3 h, 47 m ago

Agreed the UN is probably wrong as they are in most cases, a corrupt …Agreed the UN is probably wrong as they are in most cases, a corrupt organization fueled by cronyism and backhanders, and thats after speaking to someone who worked for them.


The point I was trying to make, its not a good look on a first world country like ours having the UN condemn the government for what is basically human rights abuses. Agreed the UN is about as useful as a choloate teapot.
Edited by: "freakstyler" 17th Nov 2017

freakstyler2 m ago

The point I was trying to make, its not a good look on a first world …The point I was trying to make, its not a good look on a first world country like ours having the UN basically condemn the government for what is basically human rights abuses. Agreed the UN is about as useful as a choloate teapot.


Yes, its wrong for the UN to play these kind of unfair political games against a democratically elected government where freedom and rights as well as standard of living are relatively very good, sadly the UN are far from doing a good job themselves.

Saturn2 h, 19 m ago

No intention of getting into the granular detail of all of the stated …No intention of getting into the granular detail of all of the stated figures - life is too short for both of us. To take just one example of interest though, can you point me to the report that supports the assertion that the average waiting time to see a GP in 2016 was 2 weeks. I assume this 2 week average period does not include the period awaiting an agreed schedule of future appointments for an ongoing condition. If this is truly the average waiting time across the UK for patients seeking a prompt assessment, I will be truly shocked, and would feel blessed as my family have never experienced anything other than same day appointments.


Telegraph 2 June 2017
Nowgp.com
TheSun 11jun16
Pulsetoday.co.uk
To name a few reports in the press .

my own GP quotes minimum 2 weeks unless it's an " Emergency" . And releases appointments by phone in each morning at 8... And if non available or you can't wait 90mins sitting on he phone .. Tough

Be " truly shocked"
Edited by: "plodging" 17th Nov 2017

shadey1256 m ago

Care to show me the link to the 'less housing than 2010'Even the guardian …Care to show me the link to the 'less housing than 2010'Even the guardian states record high since 2008.https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/25/uk-housebuilding-new-homes-construction-high-2008I think people should have a wander round the country.


From the House of Commons library
average homes built a year 1997-2009- 154591
average homes built a year 2010-2016- 127001

Original Poster

davewave35 m ago

Yes, its wrong for the UN to play these kind of unfair political games …Yes, its wrong for the UN to play these kind of unfair political games against a democratically elected government where freedom and rights as well as standard of living are relatively very good, sadly the UN are far from doing a good job themselves.



You're on another planet aren't you dave.

plodging21 m ago

Telegraph 2 June 2017Nowgp.comTheSun 11jun16Pulsetoday.co.ukTo name a few …Telegraph 2 June 2017Nowgp.comTheSun 11jun16Pulsetoday.co.ukTo name a few reports in the press .my own GP quotes minimum 2 weeks unless it's an " Emergency" . And releases appointments by phone in each morning at 8... And if non available or you can't wait 90mins sitting on he phone .. Tough Be " truly shocked"


The links are taking me to homepages rather than specific evidence of an average 2 week waiting time to see a GP in the UK. Not being lazy, but could you provide link(s) that are more direct.

As regards the system that you describe at your local practice, ours is very similar. The only difference is that we wait no more that a few minutes on hold at most, and have never not had an appointment the same day. We have only tended to call when necessary, and I think the "Is it an emergency?" is just a procedural technicality that most people are very familiar with now. I can appreciate that experiences may be different in more densely populated areas, but I would still be interested to read about what the actual average (rather than the theoretical or individual anecdote) waiting time to see a GP in the UK is. Happy to be better informed on this with any links that you can kindly provide.

plodging49 m ago

From the House of Commons library average homes built a year 1997-2009- …From the House of Commons library average homes built a year 1997-2009- 154591average homes built a year 2010-2016- 127001

So yours is a misleading statement to say the least?
Housebuilding is now at a 10 year high,
Even the guardian agrees.

Edit, just re read your statement, it's not misleading, it's a lie.
Edited by: "shadey12" 17th Nov 2017

Oops misread the headline.” Toy Austerity causes deaths.” Here was me thinking Christmas had been cancelled, thereby killing the elves.

Pfft. Who are they to talk?

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