Is It reasonable to expect (a bath purchaser to cut a hole in the floor)?

36
Found 7th Feb
Bought a free standing bath from Victoria Plum and on inspection the distance between the waste pipe and the bottom of the skirts is about 20mm, the average "shallow" waste requires this space to be about 65mm leaving the trap sticking out.
VP say i should cut a hole in the floor, which for a few reasons I am not keen on.
Despite there not being any warning on the page about this "requirement" they are insisting this is the only one to fit it and I should have expected this.
In my opinion it makes the bath not fit for purpose, any opinions?
2890725-P4vvc.jpg
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just because you dont like the idea does not make the bath "not fit for purpose"
36 Comments
Any more pics. Cant really make much of that angle.
I've had to cut a hole on the floorboards before for the waste trap before - all depends upon the design of the bath. It was no problem for me - just removed a section of floorboard. If you are putting this onto a concrete ground floor I can imagine it will be bit more of a hassle.
just because you dont like the idea does not make the bath "not fit for purpose"
Original Poster
bigweapon071 h, 6 m ago

Any more pics. Cant really make much of that angle.



that's how much the trap projects from the base, the bath is stood up in that pic i have a few pics what would you like to see?
The picture really isn't helping. Just get a proper plumber to fit the bath - he will know what trap to fit without the need to cut the floor, assuming that's what you mean. HEPV0

I rarely see pictures of sanitary wear showing the service pipework...
Original Poster
Van19731 h, 9 m ago

I've had to cut a hole on the floorboards before for the waste trap before …I've had to cut a hole on the floorboards before for the waste trap before - all depends upon the design of the bath. It was no problem for me - just removed a section of floorboard. If you are putting this onto a concrete ground floor I can imagine it will be bit more of a hassle.



no it's upstairs but the floor has been re-inforced at that area so we have a double joist and pipes running either side bout 6 ince wide
The projection is about 40mm so it will mean not only cutting floor board but joists as well leaving a sizeable dip in floor underneath a skirted bath.
The bathroom is also above the lounge, having had waste joints fail in the past i am reluctant to not cover every angle for potential of a bath emptying its entire contents to the floor below.
Original Poster
themorgatron7 m ago

The picture really isn't helping. Just get a proper plumber to fit the …The picture really isn't helping. Just get a proper plumber to fit the bath - he will know what trap to fit without the need to cut the floor, assuming that's what you mean. HEPV0I rarely see pictures of sanitary wear showing the service pipework...



it was a proper plumber that pointed this out and is refusing to fit the bath as he says cutting into floorboards and joist because suppliers don't do their job properly is not in his remit.
there is only two traps on the market with the potential for fitting, one is such rubbish he refused to entertain it the other was a gamble because it had the waste pipe combined and the connection for the overflow is proprietory so might not match
Edited by: "maddogb" 7th Feb
maddogb7 m ago

no it's upstairs but the floor has been re-inforced at that area so we …no it's upstairs but the floor has been re-inforced at that area so we have a double joist and pipes running either side bout 6 ince wide The projection is about 40mm so it will mean not only cutting floor board but joists as well leaving a sizeable dip in floor underneath a skirted bath.The bathroom is also above the lounge, having had waste joints fail in the past i am reluctant to not cover every angle for potential of a bath emptying its entire contents to the floor below.


Floorboard thickness 20-25mm so only notching the joists 15-20mm which is allowed.
Example if a joist is 200mm in depth you can go up to 50mm notch with out weakening the joist .
It’s your problem not there’s unless you have paid them to install ????? If you haven’t it’s up to you or your builder/plumber.
I've had wastes very close before but that's clearly past close Is the picture a shallow bath waste? I'm guessing it is if it's a proper plumber
Edited by: "darlodge" 7th Feb
Your plumber sounds like a lazy idiot . It would take me 30 minutes tops to prep your floor ready for this bath . What a load of nonsense.
Edited by: "yozzman1234" 7th Feb
Original Poster
yozzman12346 m ago

Floorboard thickness 20-25mm so only notching the joists 15-20mm which is …Floorboard thickness 20-25mm so only notching the joists 15-20mm which is allowed. Example if a joist is 200mm in depth you can go up to 50mm notch with out weakening the joist . It’s your problem not there’s unless you have paid them to install ????? If you haven’t it’s up to you or your builder/plumber.


not sure what angle you are coming from but language like "it's your problem" suggests you have one.
i am struggling to think of an analogy but as a consumer buying a bath would assume a bath could be fitted on a floor without damaging said floor, if not , fair warning should be given.
maddogb12 m ago

it was a proper plumber that pointed this out and is refusing to fit the …it was a proper plumber that pointed this out and is refusing to fit the bath as he says cutting into floorboards and joist because suppliers don't do their job properly is not in his remit.there is only two traps on the market with the potential for fitting, one is such rubbish he refused to entertain it the other was a gamble because it had the waste pipe combined and the connection for the overflow is proprietory so might not match


He's not a plumber if it's not in his "remit".

If the u bend "U" will mean cutting the floor/joist out then either use a 1 1/2" connector then a HEPV0 somewhere discretely, or alternatively go on the McAlpine website and find a trap that will fit, they have absolutely every possible connotation to make it work, (If you want it chrome it might get a bit more tricky).
It's great saying you can notch a joist....lets disregard where on the span it is....
Original Poster
darlodge11 m ago

I've had wastes very close before but that's clearly past close Is the …I've had wastes very close before but that's clearly past close Is the picture a shallow bath waste? I'm guessing it is if it's a proper plumber



yes that is mcalpines shallow trap as recommended by the plumber, VP did send another that they recommended but it was no diff, sticks out from the skirts by about 40-45 mm.
mcalpine actually do a trap that combines the waste pipe and trap into one 50mm seal with total height 112mm but as he explained overflow connections are proprietary so no guarentee they would match, i suggested them trying one but they declined
themorgatron5 m ago

It's great saying you can notch a joist....lets disregard where on the …It's great saying you can notch a joist....lets disregard where on the span it is....


Read building regs and engineering regs for notching timber joists ! Up to 25% of the depth is maximum with out weakening the joist anywhere on the span . Over 25% then yes
Original Poster
themorgatron19 m ago

He's not a plumber if it's not in his "remit".If the u bend "U" will mean …He's not a plumber if it's not in his "remit".If the u bend "U" will mean cutting the floor/joist out then either use a 1 1/2" connector then a HEPV0 somewhere discretely, or alternatively go on the McAlpine website and find a trap that will fit, they have absolutely every possible connotation to make it work, (If you want it chrome it might get a bit more tricky).



this is a free standing bath that had been allowed for in the planning there will be no underfloor access, the waste comes up thro the floor to an elbow which joins to a trap with a flexi, the bath can then be "dropped" into place.
i had a look myself as have experienced plumbers with closed minds previously but I struggled to find a female g1½ on anything other than a trap, what are you suggesting?
this is the bath to give u an idea

victoriaplum.com/pro…720
Original Poster
yozzman123435 m ago

Read building regs and engineering regs for notching timber joists ! Up to …Read building regs and engineering regs for notching timber joists ! Up to 25% of the depth is maximum with out weakening the joist anywhere on the span . Over 25% then yes



not really the point, when i buy something i want telling in advance if someone needs to take a hammer and chisel to "my stuff" before it can be used, they told me naff all.
Edited by: "maddogb" 7th Feb
Looking at the bath on the web page you posted, if you click on the 'size' icon top left a pop up sketch comes up showing the height of the bath from the floor and the depth from the top to the outlet. The difference is 110mm, if as you say the trap is sticking out 65mm what exactly is the problem?
Original Poster
jaketheplumber22 m ago

Looking at the bath on the web page you posted, if you click on the 'size' …Looking at the bath on the web page you posted, if you click on the 'size' icon top left a pop up sketch comes up showing the height of the bath from the floor and the depth from the top to the outlet. The difference is 110mm, if as you say the trap is sticking out 65mm what exactly is the problem?



nice maths well spotted, the waste pipe projects about about 90mm from the base leaving only 20mm for a trap....
Assuming the waste pipe is upvc can you not shorten the threaded portion of the pipe to suit?
Original Poster
jaketheplumber30 m ago

Assuming the waste pipe is upvc can you not shorten the threaded portion …Assuming the waste pipe is upvc can you not shorten the threaded portion of the pipe to suit?



nah the waste thread is actually quite short, just enough to secure the trap with, the massive overflow connection isn't helping, it's huge!
33221735-EE14B.jpgcouldn't get the best angle for photo but when i stuck my head in there the pipe projects about 90mm, the plumber did link to a mcalpine trap that might do but they weren't interested in sending me one and as i had already paid the guy to come back for various photosessions etc i wasnt prepared to invest another £75 (the new trap alone is £25) for a solution that might not work
When i pointed that out they agreed to collect free of charge after a wee bit of "no we won't" vs "yes you will" then "ok we will"
Edited by: "maddogb" 7th Feb
To be honest I think if I'd paid that much for a bath, I'd be pretty angry about having to put up with all that work to get it fitted. You're right you should have been advised of this beforehand.
Have you tried the (more expensive) chrome plated traps? We had exactly this problem with a freestanding bath and found it very difficult to find standard plastic parts that would fit in the space between the bottom of the bath and the floor. We had brand new tiles (ground floor bathroom) and didn't fancy the plumbers option of gauging a hole in one of the tiles either!

This was the smallest trap I have found anywhere, and this only just fit ours with mm's to spare...£30, but did the job luckily.

Not sure if dimensions will fit your situation, but worth a look victorianplumbing.co.uk/cle…cw3
Edited by: "P_nnyPinch_r" 8th Feb
maddogb3 h, 28 m ago

not sure what angle you are coming from but language like "it's your …not sure what angle you are coming from but language like "it's your problem" suggests you have one.i am struggling to think of an analogy but as a consumer buying a bath would assume a bath could be fitted on a floor without damaging said floor, if not , fair warning should be given.


I bought an upmarket SUV and when I took it home it wouldn't fit in the garage unless the manual mirrors were folded back. I kicked off at the dealer and after some blunt negotiation they conceeded to fit electric folding mirrors at no cost, but they absolutely refused to fit a sunroof that would have allowed me to get out of the vehicle once parked. Merchants simply don't care once they have your money.
Why don't you lift the bath
maddogb7 h, 22 m ago

nah the waste thread is actually quite short, just enough to secure the …nah the waste thread is actually quite short, just enough to secure the trap with, the massive overflow connection isn't helping, it's huge![Image] couldn't get the best angle for photo but when i stuck my head in there the pipe projects about 90mm, the plumber did link to a mcalpine trap that might do but they weren't interested in sending me one and as i had already paid the guy to come back for various photosessions etc i wasnt prepared to invest another £75 (the new trap alone is £25) for a solution that might not workWhen i pointed that out they agreed to collect free of charge after a wee bit of "no we won't" vs "yes you will" then "ok we will"


What's the problem then? They have agreed to collect it for free and refund. Fit for purpose is irrelevant really. You got off lightly as that is one fugly bath
Original Poster
P_nnyPinch_r8 h, 56 m ago

Have you tried the (more expensive) chrome plated traps? We had exactly …Have you tried the (more expensive) chrome plated traps? We had exactly this problem with a freestanding bath and found it very difficult to find standard plastic parts that would fit in the space between the bottom of the bath and the floor. We had brand new tiles (ground floor bathroom) and didn't fancy the plumbers option of gauging a hole in one of the tiles either!This was the smallest trap I have found anywhere, and this only just fit ours with mm's to spare...£30, but did the job luckily. Not sure if dimensions will fit your situation, but worth a look https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/clearwater-shallow-seal-p-trap-cw3



that is another that looks like it might fit but having already tried 4 "shallow" traps and had the plumber back to hold the bath up while i took photos they insisted on me providing I am running out of patience, no reason they can't provide the traps for me to try or even get them and try them before selling me the bloody bath lol
Original Poster
AndyRoyd8 h, 45 m ago

I bought an upmarket SUV and when I took it home it wouldn't fit in the …I bought an upmarket SUV and when I took it home it wouldn't fit in the garage unless the manual mirrors were folded back. I kicked off at the dealer and after some blunt negotiation they conceeded to fit electric folding mirrors at no cost, but they absolutely refused to fit a sunroof that would have allowed me to get out of the vehicle once parked. Merchants simply don't care once they have your money.



see your fault is you didn't complain when the estate agent/builder sold you a shoddy garage
Original Poster
chocci2 h, 54 m ago

What's the problem then? They have agreed to collect it for free and …What's the problem then? They have agreed to collect it for free and refund. Fit for purpose is irrelevant really. You got off lightly as that is one fugly bath



lol each to their own, i really like it and as it's an old building i wanted a little "old fashion" without resorting to space wasting roll tops.
As far as tech spec goes the bath is very impressive for the money, only beaten on internal length and width vs external size by another £130 dearer, and the next step up after that is £1300
They have said on the phone they agreed to collect it and it would be free so no problem as long as they don't try anything dodgy, apart from other than the facts i will now have wasted a month waiting for this bath to be supplied and had to pay out for several visits by the plumber
Original Poster
daletharper7 h, 59 m ago

Why don't you lift the bath



it's already tall @570mm putting it higher would make it tricky to get in and out without a step for which there is no room.
yozzman123414 h, 14 m ago

Read building regs and engineering regs for notching timber joists ! Up to …Read building regs and engineering regs for notching timber joists ! Up to 25% of the depth is maximum with out weakening the joist anywhere on the span . Over 25% then yes


Got a diagram for that, things have changed since I did an apprenticeship.
Original Poster
themorgatron1 h, 26 m ago

Got a diagram for that, things have changed since I did an apprenticeship.



i too would be interested in that, if you can reduce a joist in size by 25% and it not affect any strength why the bloody hell do they make em so big
Original Poster
just to update, whilst they agreed to lift it on the thurs no one turned up, nor did they call or turn up on the friday, anyone know if this is typical for victoriaplum?
Original Poster
btw for any plumbers/fitters that answered, a quick question...what percentage of baths have you fitted that required these sorts of measures,
the plumber i am using says its very rare but looking at all the new baths on the VP website seems quite a few only have similar space at the base..
maddogb8 h, 13 m ago

btw for any plumbers/fitters that answered, a quick question...what …btw for any plumbers/fitters that answered, a quick question...what percentage of baths have you fitted that required these sorts of measures, the plumber i am using says its very rare but looking at all the new baths on the VP website seems quite a few only have similar space at the base..


I would say, at most, 25% of the baths I fit need the floor cutting/digging out. 90% of the showers I fit need the same doing....

I've also had a couple of returns with Victoria Plum, although the customer has arranged them. Never missed a collection and always just given the refund without argument.
Original Poster
themorgatron13 h, 50 m ago

I would say, at most, 25% of the baths I fit need the floor …I would say, at most, 25% of the baths I fit need the floor cutting/digging out. 90% of the showers I fit need the same doing....I've also had a couple of returns with Victoria Plum, although the customer has arranged them. Never missed a collection and always just given the refund without argument.



they did pick up the bath yesterday so a small glitch in the system somehow.
25% seems high, i went thru a couple of bath catalogs and most had the space from floor to bottom of skirt average 150mm so plenty of room for average waste and trap, suppose a plumber will see more of these due to the diy'r not knowing what to do with it.
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