Is this legal

43
Found 7th Mar
My daughter work for a finance company. Last week she had a day off sick and one day where she could not get to work because of the snow. She apparently already used her maximum of day off sick for the financial year (she must have about 10 days off in the year, she suffers from very painful "once a month" pain and is being seen by a consultant). Yesterday she came home and told us that her firm told that she won't be paid for these 2 days, and will have to make up the time at a rate of an extra 4 hours per week. Can they do that? Thanks
Community Updates
Ask
Top comments
billshutt6 m ago

tell her to consider joining a trade union


And she will get a p45 if she does and unions are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!
Edited by: "cmdr_elito" 7th Mar
43 Comments
I'm no expert but I believe it to be common for not being paid for "excessive" sick leave, in my company it's not more than 3 instances of sick in a year. These can be a day each and they all count.

As for making up the time I don't know, doesn't sound right to me. Making up time for being late has been done before, if it's to make up hours missed when off sick then that sounds wrong. Depends on individual contracts I imagine, I had to sign a working time directive waiver at one place so you'd be surprised what employers can get away with.
As I read this, they are under no obligation to do anything but they are willing to let her work extra hours so she won't be short?

BTW, I doubt they can 'make her' do anything.
Edited by: "Shengis" 7th Mar
I forgot to say that she is under an apprentice contract. Whatever if they are right or not, they are a terrible company to work for. It's her first job and works really hard (and i am not saying that because she if my daughter), but they just like taking and not giving back. I will ask her to see if she can get a copy of her contract, but she is so shy that she does not like opening her mouth (she will learn soon enough with time).
LemonHead4 m ago

According to Laura Kearsley, a specialist employment solicitor at Nelsons …According to Laura Kearsley, a specialist employment solicitor at Nelsons SolicitorsI can’t get into work because of the bad weather. Does my employer have to pay me?Essentially no. It’s usually your responsibility to get to and from work so if you don’t show up, an employer is entitled to regard absence as unauthorised.http://metro.co.uk/2018/02/26/rights-cant-get-work-snow-7343004/



Thanks, that's what i thought, if a big company usually does something, their legal team makes sure that it is ok. She is a young driver, I took her to work 3 days in a row but the 4th day I could not, and there were no train going neither
jeannot1811 m ago

Thanks, that's what i thought, if a big company usually does something, …Thanks, that's what i thought, if a big company usually does something, their legal team makes sure that it is ok. She is a young driver, I took her to work 3 days in a row but the 4th day I could not, and there were no train going neither


If it was your company, how many days would you allow people not to be there and still pay them? At the end of the day theyre a business and salary is a cost like any other.
yes they can do this i am afraid.
OK thank you for all the replies
If they stop her pay then she's under no obligation to "make the time up" otherwise she's not being paid for hours worked.
jeannot1826 m ago

Thanks, that's what i thought, if a big company usually does something, …Thanks, that's what i thought, if a big company usually does something, their legal team makes sure that it is ok. She is a young driver, I took her to work 3 days in a row but the 4th day I could not, and there were no train going neither


I thought I made an error earlier, I deleted my posts as I thought you are asking about the weather, as well as other issues. I don't know why I assumed that though as you don't mention that in your OP. I'll post the links that I posted earlier anyway as it appears you may have had issues with regards to the weather after all as you say there were no trains on the 4th day of when attempting to take your daughter in to work.

mirror.co.uk/mon…997

metro.co.uk/201…04/
tell her to consider joining a trade union
billshutt6 m ago

tell her to consider joining a trade union


And she will get a p45 if she does and unions are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!
Edited by: "cmdr_elito" 7th Mar
So the company are not paying her (OK , legal but not moral maybe) but then they want her to work the hours, to bring the balance back? Again that seems reasonable as long as they pay her for the extra work - she will not lose out financially.
They can't not pay her and expect the hours to be made up, otherwise she's working for free, it's one or the other.
Also from The Guardian website about the recent snow :

Does my employer have to pay me if I can't get into work?
Even in very poor weather conditions, the onus is on employees to get to work – unless the employer has a contractual obligation to provide transport for employees to and from the place of work.

Many employers now have an adverse weather policy (or sometimes related contractual clauses) which clarify whether payment will be made or not if an employee is unable to attend work in these circumstances. These are useful, for example, for informing employees about what is expected of them, the efforts they are expected to make to attend work, reporting their absence, and what they can expect from the employer.

If your contract has no clause and you fail to turn up your employer has no obligation to pay you.

Some employers may consider allowing employees to request that the time off due to adverse weather be paid as annual leave, or agree an arrangement for the employee to make the lost hours up within a reasonable timescale.


Scotland on the other hand might be different, see Scottish government warns employers over snow days pay docking

Scottish ministers are considering action against employers for docking the wages of staff who could not make it to work because of the bad weather.

The public was advised not to travel during the worst of the snow last week.

Scottish Transport Minister Humza Yousaf said he had been contacted by people who were facing disciplinary action or potential docking of wages.

He told the BBC that was not acceptable and he would look at the legal position.
SJHan53 m ago

If they stop her pay then she's under no obligation to "make the time up" …If they stop her pay then she's under no obligation to "make the time up" otherwise she's not being paid for hours worked.



While I agree with everyone that off course it is morally wrong. Contract wise you sign a contract as the company provide to work x amount of hours, you are in breach of that contract if you cannot fullfill those hours, as would the company be if they couldn't provide work for those x amount of hours for the pay you agreed to. Sick pay is not "law" that any company must provide it. More and more we are seeing firms these days not provide workers with any form of sick pay (except SSP but that is provided by the government not the firm) which is sad to see.
_-Richie-_7th Mar

Scottish ministers are considering action against employers for docking …Scottish ministers are considering action against employers for docking the wages of staff who could not make it to work because of the bad weather. The public was advised not to travel during the worst of the snow last week.Scottish Transport Minister Humza Yousaf said he had been contacted by people who were facing disciplinary action or potential docking of wages. He told the BBC that was not acceptable and he would look at the legal position.


LOL?

Yeah fair play the businesses may be acting like a-holes especially over disciplinary action, but why should they be held accountable for the weather/government advice?
I also work in the finance industry , the time off is really two separate issues . Companies have specific rules in place for travelling in bad weather , so for instance mine would be that if I was in a red weather warning zone for snow I would be allowed to stay at home . If it's Amber or below I have to get to my office, if that proves impossible I have to get to the closest branch to my home. To put that into context some people walked for 1 1/2 hours to get into their closest branch last week and then the same to get home. If we didn't bother going to either by foot, bus etc then the day would be taken out of our holiday allowance, but not looked on kindly.

In view of the sickness levels your daughter has claimed , we would certainly be on disciplinary warning at that level , particularly if it's a day here and there that mount up to 10 days over the past year. A one off sickness backed up by doctors notes for 10 days would be accepted however.

Your daughter needs to look at the contract she signed and the company handbook, both of which will outline what's expected of her . This will tell her how long her company will pay sick leave for etc.

Theres every chance that with a high sickness record the company won't take her beyond apprenticeship level, also she will find than many job applications now ask how much time you have taken as sick leave in the previous 12 months and depending on the finance company it could make a difference to her reference
tinkerbellian7 m ago

I also work in the finance industry , the time off is really two separate …I also work in the finance industry , the time off is really two separate issues . Companies have specific rules in place for travelling in bad weather , so for instance mine would be that if I was in a red weather warning zone for snow I would be allowed to stay at home . If it's Amber or below I have to get to my office, if that proves impossible I have to get to the closest branch to my home. To put that into context some people walked for 1 1/2 hours to get into their closest branch last week and then the same to get home. If we didn't bother going to either by foot, bus etc then the day would be taken out of our holiday allowance, but not looked on kindly.In view of the sickness levels your daughter has claimed , we would certainly be on disciplinary warning at that level , particularly if it's a day here and there that mount up to 10 days over the past year. A one off sickness backed up by doctors notes for 10 days would be accepted however. Your daughter needs to look at the contract she signed and the company handbook, both of which will outline what's expected of her . This will tell her how long her company will pay sick leave for etc. Theres every chance that with a high sickness record the company won't take her beyond apprenticeship level, also she will find than many job applications now ask how much time you have taken as sick leave in the previous 12 months and depending on the finance company it could make a difference to her reference



Sad really when she genuinely sick and unwell, thus she is getting better since seeing the consultant and almost got it under control (for example in the other i know people working in the public sector and they have as much time off than holidays every year). My work place is completely different though, it's also a company dealing with finance (investment bank), I was off this year for 1 week with chest infection and they were fine with it. Last week for example someone could not make it to work all week because of the weather and they were fine too. Saying that I can see it from an employer point of view too, if i had my own business, i may not think/feel the same way when you are losing money
I wouldn't know the answer to your question but I can tell you I don't get paid for any day I'm off sick , not one
jeannot1833 m ago

Sad really when she genuinely sick and unwell, thus she is getting better …Sad really when she genuinely sick and unwell, thus she is getting better since seeing the consultant and almost got it under control (for example in the other i know people working in the public sector and they have as much time off than holidays every year). My work place is completely different though, it's also a company dealing with finance (investment bank), I was off this year for 1 week with chest infection and they were fine with it. Last week for example someone could not make it to work all week because of the weather and they were fine too. Saying that I can see it from an employer point of view too, if i had my own business, i may not think/feel the same way when you are losing money


Try to get a letter from her consultant detailing the pain she’s in and emphasising it’s under investigation.

When I was seeing a cardiologist, I gave my employers a letter to demonstrate my illness was serious, and if I needed to have my heart restarted, ofc I wouldn’t be coming to work!
As has been said there are 2 separate issues here.
1. Sickness, they don't have to pay her full pay but they do have to pay her SSP. She does need to see the contract or the sickness policy as it should state what the maximum number of days they will pay full pay for and what the process is for managing absence, 10 days is quite a lot though and I would expect at least a warning and some kind of attendance improvement plan to be put in place. She shouldn't be asked to make this time up although if it suits her to and then get paid then fair enough, although I would then also want it removed from her sickness record.

2. The weather issue, being asked to work the time back or take a days holiday would be the usual way of dealing with this in my experience.
cmdr_elito1 h, 47 m ago

And she will get a p45 if she does and unions are about as useful as a …And she will get a p45 if she does and unions are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!



and if that happens she could then take the employer to an employment tribunal with the help of her union
I always tell people to treat work like a bank. Before making any withdrawals or loan applications make sure you have a record of plenty of deposits and a good positive balance. All of the good employees I have worked with have always done this.
Nobody here can answer your question as we do not know what is in your daughters contract or the companies sick policy.

if she has had 10 separate sick occurances though, I would think she’s lucky to not have a disciplinary or been sacked. Most places have a 3 strike system where you will have warnings etc for too many separate absence periods.

she would not get SSP for one single day off sick, so if she has used her entitlement of company sick pay she has 3 options. Take it as unpaid, use a days holiday or make up the time. Same applies to the snow day.

i personally Work for a local authority and we do not get paid for the first 2 days of absence at all so need to make up hours or use holiday or go unpaid for those days if we are off sick (it’s to deter people pulling sickies or hangover type sick days) but this is written into our contracts and sick policy. If we have 3 separate absences in one year then we might get a warning and too many separate occurances would result in being fired, unless there’s a disability as the equality act sold cover i
Blimey I wouldn't be complaining.
The company sounds quite good to work for allowing all those absences.
Richard_Richard3 h, 52 m ago

I'm no expert but I believe it to be common for not being paid for …I'm no expert but I believe it to be common for not being paid for "excessive" sick leave, in my company it's not more than 3 instances of sick in a year. These can be a day each and they all count.As for making up the time I don't know, doesn't sound right to me. Making up time for being late has been done before, if it's to make up hours missed when off sick then that sounds wrong. Depends on individual contracts I imagine, I had to sign a working time directive waiver at one place so you'd be surprised what employers can get away with.


In my job we don’t get paid at all for sick leave.

Annoyingly, its not enough to discourage people abusing it and taking sick days for stupid things like “taking their daughter to the hospital” despite the daughter being 16/17, having a non-working dad and two adult siblings. Another time another co worker took the day off for “earache” which, as somebody who has that regularly and still works, made me annoyed at them.

In my mother’s work, she has to make up the hours but this is when she’s had to go to appointments so had to leave work early. I don’t think it’s the same for sick days but I don’t know.
Edited by: "Mechtup" 7th Mar
The government have guide lines on this on there webpage
Reading the replies, I realise that my company is pretty good then when it comes to this sort of situation, I will take that on board in the future before moaning about something. As for my daughter situation, she has decided to work the time as extra in order to not lose the money and is actively looking for work so that she can leave this job (not because of the snow and off sick day not being paid situation, but because of the commuting and the type of work), she started looking before that but this made her even more determined leaving. Kudos to her for not just quitting but to find something first before handing her notice . She is only 20 years old, and it's only her first proper job, so I a pretty sure that there will be more stepping stone until she finds her niche. Thank you
jeannot181 h, 9 m ago

Reading the replies, I realise that my company is pretty good then when it …Reading the replies, I realise that my company is pretty good then when it comes to this sort of situation, I will take that on board in the future before moaning about something. As for my daughter situation, she has decided to work the time as extra in order to not lose the money and is actively looking for work so that she can leave this job (not because of the snow and off sick day not being paid situation, but because of the commuting and the type of work), she started looking before that but this made her even more determined leaving. Kudos to her for not just quitting but to find something first before handing her notice . She is only 20 years old, and it's only her first proper job, so I a pretty sure that there will be more stepping stone until she finds her niche. Thank you


If she’s an apprentice, shouldn’t you encourage her to stick it out until she earns her qualification as it will open up further opportunity for her
All comes down to her contract ,if it’s in she has not got a leg to stand on as she agreed to the terms of employment
cmdr_elito7 h, 38 m ago

And she will get a p45 if she does and unions are about as useful as a …And she will get a p45 if she does and unions are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!



Disagree unions are only as strong as their members
billshutt5 h, 56 m ago

and if that happens she could then take the employer to an employment …and if that happens she could then take the employer to an employment tribunal with the help of her union


Unfortunately not everyone knows how unions work or can be bothered to pay a monthly fee for it, which I agree is sad really. It always gripes me because if it was free people would join
My workplace is just a supermarket but there's only so much sick pay you can have in a rolling year and if you don't show up because of the weather no pay.

They probably intend for her to work these extra hours to make up for the money lost due to absences... So she'd get paid for those but not for the recent absences.

My partner's brother, who was on an apprenticeship, lost the job because of too many absences due to arthritis so even a medical reason behind absences isn't gonna guarantee you keep the job at the end of the apprenticeship.

Remember that within 2 years of employment they can find any reason to dismiss (unless they're discriminating against you).
Edited by: "hearts22" 8th Mar
cliosport6512 h, 40 m ago

Disagree unions are only as strong as their members



That's quite true. Where I work it's unionised but we refuse to join as out local area rep us a useless ****. We renegotiated part of our contract and all the union did was delay the outcome with unnecessary interference. Why they were even allowed to be involved with the dealings on non union members is beyond me. So with regard to the strength of the members, why would we pay to strengthen a useless organisation?

Incidentally I used to be a shop steward and that union was a damn sight better than the one where I now work
hearts2210 h, 9 m ago

My workplace is just a supermarket but there's only so much sick pay you …My workplace is just a supermarket but there's only so much sick pay you can have in a rolling year and if you don't show up because of the weather no pay.They probably intend for her to work these extra hours to make up for the money lost due to absences... So she'd get paid for those but not for the recent absences.My partner's brother, who was on an apprenticeship, lost the job because of too many absences due to arthritis so even a medical reason behind absences isn't gonna guarantee you keep the job at the end of the apprenticeship.Remember that within 2 years of employment they can find any reason to dismiss (unless they're discriminating against you).



A lot of people don't seem to realise the 2 year thing. Three month trial, full contract and then they decide they can **** about. Rarely ends well.......
cliosport6517 h, 10 m ago

Disagree unions are only as strong as their members


Weak and feckless then.....
cmdr_elito2 m ago

Weak and feckless then.....


If they have people like you in them then maybe, it's your workplaces not mine
billshutt23 h, 5 m ago

and if that happens she could then take the employer to an employment …and if that happens she could then take the employer to an employment tribunal with the help of her union


What help is a union going to be? Seen loads of people seek help from unions and as long as the employer follows their defined processes to the letter the union cannot do a damn thing. Private sector companies that don’t recognise unions will just find a way to get rid of any union members, I’ve seen it done and they tried to fight it and got nowhere. There was no proof, except even knew why it happened.
cliosport652 m ago

If they have people like you in them then maybe, it's your workplaces not …If they have people like you in them then maybe, it's your workplaces not mine


All unions have the weak and the feckless because why else would you need a union????????
cmdr_elito38 m ago

What help is a union going to be? Seen loads of people seek help from …What help is a union going to be? Seen loads of people seek help from unions and as long as the employer follows their defined processes to the letter the union cannot do a damn thing. Private sector companies that don’t recognise unions will just find a way to get rid of any union members, I’ve seen it done and they tried to fight it and got nowhere. There was no proof, except even knew why it happened.



you appear to be clearly anti -union and maybe feel a need to be right all the time
billshutt2 m ago

you appear to be clearly anti -union and maybe feel a need to be right all …you appear to be clearly anti -union and maybe feel a need to be right all the time



Or maybe they don't like parasites. The power of the union is long gone, Maggie took care of that.
Post a comment
Avatar
@
    Text

    Top Discussions

    Top Discussions

    Top Merchants