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    JUNIOR doctors will stage another THREE five-day walkouts, the British Medical Association has announced.

    JUNIOR doctors will stage another THREE five-day walkouts, the British Medical Association has announced.

    67 Comments

    Original Poster

    Medics will strike between 8am and 5pm during weekdays on 5-11 October, 14-18 November and 5-9 December

    Good luck to them. Theyre underpaid and under appreciated.

    Get a different job if you're not happy.

    Be glad you have a job.

    Looks like this post will get a heated debate

    Looks like this post will get a heated debate

    They deserve **** all an it's pharmacy Killin us all. moan the holistic drs

    stuarthanley

    Good luck to them. Theyre underpaid and under appreciated.



    ​Underpaid? Even they agreed they get paid well, it's just the working hours they ain't happy about

    I think they have a fair argument, but the BMA should have represented their members which it appears they haven't, difficult negotiation. many of our doctors are emigrating and that is a very bad thing.

    westy125

    ​Underpaid? Even they agreed they get paid well, it's just the working h … ​Underpaid? Even they agreed they get paid well, it's just the working hours they ain't happy about


    You'd work 72 hours a week for £37k a year?

    £9.88 per hour....

    Edited by: "SJHan" 1st Sep 2016

    Im all for fair pay and hours for Doctors/Jr Docs but what about the same for Nurses? Carers? what about unpaid Carers? no one is representing those.

    Unpaid carers can work 100+ hours a week easy and get £55 for it but its means tested! thats a freakin joke, nothing as hard as caring full time for someone, the government exploits this knowing full well that carers have no choice.

    So while I sympathise with Jr Doctors for having to work long hours, in the reality of it, its nothing compared to some out there, and I find these strikes hurt no one but the people in the most need of their services.

    Is it a wonder this country's poor is disgruntled and disillusioned with the way society treats them? its always those worst off who suffer while the wealthy stand on the backs of the poor.


    also im waiting for an OP which has been postponed twice because of these strikes, looks like another year wait for me! it s a joke too I pay my NI fairly yet can't seen to use the service I am paying for?
    Edited by: "haritori" 1st Sep 2016

    stuarthanley

    You'd work 72 hours a week for £37k a year? £9.88 per hour....



    ​i was in the armed forces and got paid less than that per year for my first ten years and whilst deployed i worked on average 80 hours a week and then was also liable to get called out when i wasnt in my place of work but i never moaned as i knew what i had signed up for, just like junior doctors knew what they were getting into before they decided to strike and put lives at risk.

    kevnanji

    ​i was in the armed forces and got paid less than that per year for my f … ​i was in the armed forces and got paid less than that per year for my first ten years and whilst deployed i worked on average 80 hours a week and then was also liable to get called out when i wasnt in my place of work but i never moaned as i knew what i had signed up for, just like junior doctors knew what they were getting into before they decided to strike and put lives at risk.


    Fair enough but do you really want treatment from a doctor that is currently working his 72nd hour in a row and is unhappy with his pay and forced contract?

    stuarthanley

    Fair enough but do you really want treatment from a doctor that is … Fair enough but do you really want treatment from a doctor that is currently working his 72nd hour in a row and is unhappy with his pay and forced contract?



    ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew the pressures of being a junior doctor before they started the job and if they didnt then they didnt exactly research their chosen profession very well

    kevnanji

    ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew t … ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew the pressures of being a junior doctor before they started the job and if they didnt then they didnt exactly research their chosen profession very well



    The pressures of a junior doctor, from the perspective of a 16 to 18 year old, cannot be fully comprehended before choosing to study medicine. Nor can the pressure be comprehended by a non-healthcare professional in a TV documentary or newspaper. Nevertheless most go into it for the right reason - certainly not for the financial benefits as A*A*A can get you a much better paid job in the City or Law.

    I appreciate them striking for their future colleagues whom are more negatively affected than themselves.

    Edited by: "Firefly1" 1st Sep 2016

    kevnanji

    ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew t … ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew the pressures of being a junior doctor before they started the job and if they didnt then they didnt exactly research their chosen profession very well


    "The new contract says that doctors can work no more than 72 hours over seven consecutive days"
    Again, whether they chose their career or not - do you want an unhappy, disgruntled and tired doctor operating on your loved ones?

    Firefly1

    The pressures of a junior doctor, from the perspective of a 16 to 18 year … The pressures of a junior doctor, from the perspective of a 16 to 18 year old, cannot be fully comprehended before choosing to study medicine. Nevertheless most go into it for the right reason - certainly not for the financial benefits as A*A*A can get you a much better paid job in the City or Law.I appreciate them striking for their future colleagues whom are more negatively affected than themselves.



    ​if they become doctors to care for people then why are they putting those people at risk and striking?

    kevnanji

    ​if they become doctors to care for people then why are they putting t … ​if they become doctors to care for people then why are they putting those people at risk and striking?



    Because - what you and many others don't realise - if they do not strike, the new contract will be imposed. Then you have 10+ years of patients being put at risk. Because they don't re-negotiate contracts every year - this one negotiation has been going on for 3 years.

    Yes, it's very sad people waiting for their operations may have their operation postponed - but at least every future operation will be done to a different, safer contract.
    Edited by: "Firefly1" 1st Sep 2016

    stuarthanley

    "The new contract says that doctors can work no more than 72 hours over … "The new contract says that doctors can work no more than 72 hours over seven consecutive days"Again, whether they chose their career or not - do you want an unhappy, disgruntled and tired doctor operating on your loved ones?



    ​so thats 10 hours a day roughly. I dont see a problem with that. I think the problem is the shift length. I think that should be capped to say 10.5 hours so they get adequate rest but i certainly dont agree with doctors putting lives at risk by striking.

    kevnanji

    ​if they become doctors to care for people then why are they putting t … ​if they become doctors to care for people then why are they putting those people at risk and striking?


    Perhaps we should expect them to work for free.... That'll teach those selfish bar stewards to care.

    kevnanji

    ​so thats 10 hours a day roughly. I dont see a problem with that. I think … ​so thats 10 hours a day roughly. I dont see a problem with that. I think the problem is the shift length. I think that should be capped to say 10.5 hours so they get adequate rest but i certainly dont agree with doctors putting lives at risk by striking.



    What if the doctor is half way through your operation? You want him to walk out at 10.5 hours? They stay to finish their operations and currently do not get paid anything for it. The new contract tries to "right" this with an overtime mechanism but the process involved is so convoluted that it will not ever work in practice.
    Edited by: "Firefly1" 1st Sep 2016

    kevnanji

    ​so thats 10 hours a day roughly. I dont see a problem with that. I think … ​so thats 10 hours a day roughly. I dont see a problem with that. I think the problem is the shift length. I think that should be capped to say 10.5 hours so they get adequate rest but i certainly dont agree with doctors putting lives at risk by striking.


    The doctors aren't putting lives at risk. The Government is the establishment imposing contracts on them.
    How will the people of the future cope when there are no doctors because it's better for them to work abroad?

    kevnanji

    ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew t … ​they dont work 72 hours in a row with no rest in between and they knew the pressures of being a junior doctor before they started the job and if they didnt then they didnt exactly research their chosen profession very well



    What a crappy thing to say. No reason given why you think they are not being treated badly just 'you should have researched that job better'. Well, perhaps people will now and no one will want to train to be a doctor.
    Edited by: "MSK." 1st Sep 2016

    I remember many years ago reading, when Italian doctors went on strike, the death rate
    at the hospital actually went down.

    I know they are overworked. But most will get experience and set up their own surgery and
    not pay much back for the training they have been given.

    Firefly1

    Because - what you and many others don't realise - if they do not strike, … Because - what you and many others don't realise - if they do not strike, the new contract will be imposed. Then you have 10+ years of patients being put at risk. Because they don't re-negotiate contracts every year - this one negotiation has been going on for 3 years.Yes, it's very sad people waiting for their operations may have their operation postponed - but at least every future operation will be done to a different, safer contract.



    ​I do realise this but as the public pay their wages through taxation and they are in a profession which people heavily rely upon then they shouldnt be allowed to strike. There are different ways to protest and whilst I agree they often do get the short end of the straw they could go about it in a different way and get more public support.

    moneysavingkitten

    What a crappy thing to say. No reason given why you think they are not … What a crappy thing to say. No reason given why you think they are not being treated badly just 'you should have researched that job better'. Well, perhaps people will now and no one will want to train to be a doctor.



    ​All i was trying to say was they knew what it would be like before they chose that profession. like i have said they do get the short end of the straw sometimes but i feel that when professions like doctors strike they will not get the public support they would if they protested in a different way

    kevnanji

    ​I do realise this but as the public pay their wages through taxation and … ​I do realise this but as the public pay their wages through taxation and they are in a profession which people heavily rely upon then they shouldnt be allowed to strike. There are different ways to protest and whilst I agree they often do get the short end of the straw they could go about it in a different way and get more public support.


    How? In what other way could they protest? Work to rule?

    kevnanji

    ​I do realise this but as the public pay their wages through taxation and … ​I do realise this but as the public pay their wages through taxation and they are in a profession which people heavily rely upon then they shouldnt be allowed to strike. There are different ways to protest and whilst I agree they often do get the short end of the straw they could go about it in a different way and get more public support.



    It's taken 3 years at least to get to this stage of strikes. If anything, this has dragged on far too long before reaching this point and most people would agree with that assessment IMHO.

    Jeremy Hunt has the face to say he will have bilateral talks if they call the strike off. What a joker. Junior doctors have been trying to talk to him for years hence the protest lyrics "Where is Jeremy.....".


    kevnanji

    ​All i was trying to say was they knew what it would be like before they c … ​All i was trying to say was they knew what it would be like before they chose that profession. like i have said they do get the short end of the straw sometimes but i feel that when professions like doctors strike they will not get the public support they would if they protested in a different way



    And I'm saying two things I guess:
    1) Where does public support actually get you? Junior doctors have had public support for over a year and - still - the government does not falter. If nothing changes, what's helpful about having all the goodwill in the World from the public?
    2) Stop saying "They know what they are getting into". No, they do not. They will have a few weeks voluntary experience in a care home, and a week doing admin in a GP surgery (patient confidentiality issues with consultations). With a TV documentary and lots of reading about the subject. They will not know what it is truly like as it is incredibly hard to get work experience in a hospital unless you have contacts.
    Edited by: "Firefly1" 1st Sep 2016

    ​The Government unfortunately treats every single public servant this way but not everyone strikes.

    don't be so ridiculous, junior doctors striking aren't putting anyone's lives at risk they are supported by their colleagues, senior doctors etc who step in and ensure the shifts are fully covered during the strikes, yes non urgent operations will get postponed but noones lives will be put in danger

    kevnanji

    ​The Government unfortunately treats every single public servant this way … ​The Government unfortunately treats every single public servant this way but not everyone strikes.


    Can't imagine a tired and disgruntled office worker accidently slicing through an artery and killing someone though...

    stuarthanley

    How? In what other way could they protest? Work to rule?



    ​there are more ways to protest than striking. All i'm saying is whatever their grievances its not worth putting lives at risk. I totally agree that the government are to blame but the government are actually laughing because the general public just see on the news that health care professionals are refusing to work.

    toristyle

    don't be so ridiculous, junior doctors striking aren't putting anyone's … don't be so ridiculous, junior doctors striking aren't putting anyone's lives at risk they are supported by their colleagues, senior doctors etc who step in and ensure the shifts are fully covered during the strikes, yes non urgent operations will get postponed but noones lives will be put in danger



    ​if they can be covered then why are they needed. My daughter has Cerebral Palsy and recently had an operation on her knee. if that was postponed due to a strike i would be angry with the doctors not the government

    kevnanji

    ​there are more ways to protest than striking. All i'm saying is whatever … ​there are more ways to protest than striking. All i'm saying is whatever their grievances its not worth putting lives at risk. I totally agree that the government are to blame but the government are actually laughing because the general public just see on the news that health care professionals are refusing to work.


    But there aren't other ways to protest in their job. None at all.

    kevnanji

    ​if they can be covered then why are they needed. My daughter has C … ​if they can be covered then why are they needed. My daughter has Cerebral Palsy and recently had an operation on her knee. if that was postponed due to a strike i would be angry with the doctors not the government


    When the prison service went out on strike, the basics were covered by the army and police. It doesn't mean they could cope with doing it long term.

    stuarthanley

    Can't imagine a tired and disgruntled office worker accidently slicing … Can't imagine a tired and disgruntled office worker accidently slicing through an artery and killing someone though...



    ​no but i tired infantry man can accidentally pull a trigger, a tired policeman could accidentally crash so they are not the only public service strained by long hours

    stuarthanley

    When the prison service went out on strike, the basics were covered by … When the prison service went out on strike, the basics were covered by the army and police. It doesn't mean they could cope with doing it long term.



    ​true but over time people would have done that job. im sure there are people who just want to get on with their training

    Sooo many races to the bottom itt.

    kevnanji

    ​if they can be covered then why are they needed. My daughter has C … ​if they can be covered then why are they needed. My daughter has Cerebral Palsy and recently had an operation on her knee. if that was postponed due to a strike i would be angry with the doctors not the government



    There aren't enough Junior Doctors to staff certain A&E Departments which have been forced to close in recent months. This tells you all you need to know - they cannot be replaced over a long term.
    In the short term of days, Consultants (Seniors) can have their holiday cancelled and be re-allocated from elsewhere in the hospital.
    However, patients will not be discharged, elective operations will be cancelled and outpatient clinics will be cancelled. Consultants will look after inpatients well, though - making sure emergencies are covered. Hardly sustainable I think we can agree?

    I was wondering what you think Junior Doctors do if it is suggested they are "not needed".
    Edited by: "Firefly1" 1st Sep 2016

    So they are putting patients at risk then. All it will take is one life to be lost due to the strike and that will be public support lost.

    kevnanji

    So they are putting patients at risk then. All it will take is one life … So they are putting patients at risk then. All it will take is one life to be lost due to the strike and that will be public support lost.



    Yes - A&E closures are putting people at risk. They aren't closing A&Es because of the strikes - they are closing A&Es because Junior Doctors are going to work abroad as they are treated so poorly by the government (*partly down to this new contract imposition).

    To repeat: A&Es will not close during the Strikes - they will be manned by Consultants. Really not sure if you understand the topic you are discussing.

    Should also remind everyone that a Junior Doctor may be 10 years post-qualification of university medical degree. Most are not fresh out of university.

    Edited by: "Firefly1" 1st Sep 2016
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