NHS 'haemorrhaging' nurses as 33,000 leave each year - BBC News

44
Found 17th Jan
bbc.co.uk/new…542

Quote:
"The NHS is "haemorrhaging" nurses with one in 10 now leaving the NHS in England each year, figures show.

More than 33,000 walked away last year, piling pressure on understaffed hospitals and community services.

The figures - provided to the BBC by NHS Digital - represent a rise of 20% since 2012-13, and mean there are now more leavers than joiners.

Nurse leaders said it was a "dangerous and downward spiral", but NHS bosses said the problem was being tackled.

The figures have been compiled as part of an in-depth look at nursing by the BBC.

We can reveal:

  • More than 10% of the nursing workforce have left NHS employment in each of the past three years

  • The number of leavers would be enough to staff more than 20 average-sized hospital trusts

  • More than half of those who walked away in the last year were under the age of 40

  • Leavers outnumbered joiners by 3,000 last year, the biggest gap over the five-year period examined by the BBC

  • Brexit may have had an impact. Since the referendum the NHS has gone from EU joiners outnumbering leavers to the reverse - more leavers than joiners

  • Nurses are being pulled off research work, special projects and admin roles to plug the gaps

689384504-1516190363.jpg
834516475-1516190377.jpg"
Community Updates
Top comments
It would be interesting to see a detailed break down of the numbers.

How many of those 33k left because they reached retirement age?, how many left due to ill health?, how many died?, how many went into private sector nursing, how many went to work in a related corporate role?, How many left to have kids? etc

I know a nurse who left the NHS last year, after a chance meeting she was offered a job paying 10 x her NHS salary and some amazing perks.
Banned
MUST BE BREXIT LETS NOT BOTHER is the undertone.

Not enough nurses for the 3.4 million EU economic migrants who have turned up on our shores including the 440,000 children.
Graham197910 m ago

MUST BE BREXIT LETS NOT BOTHER is the undertone.Not enough nurses for the …MUST BE BREXIT LETS NOT BOTHER is the undertone.Not enough nurses for the 3.4 million EU economic migrants who have turned up on our shores including the 440,000 children.


Graham, public services including the NHS are scalable so the problem lies in the way successive governments have managed them.

Having people like you moan about immigrants is what they want you to do rather than asking where the investment has gone.
44 Comments
Read Jeremy Hunts book, it's all part of the plan for health care privatisation written by... Our friendly Tori health secretary (AND social care..)
the nursing profession gone to the dogs !

working under inexperienced little Hitlers who cannot manage people

as a district nurse team we were recently TOLD YOU WILL ALL WORK TILL 8PM AT NIGHT ! and oo hours team TOLD THEY WILL WORK TILL 6AM instead of 11pm They said no and all resigned !
MANAGERS WHO COULD NOT MANAGE A P U I A B


Said the would not be held to ransom buy MERE NURSES and you will all do as your told !!!!
OMG what a state the service is in 28 + visits a day to community patients its dir


Expectations by family and patients to high ! pressures of work unmanageable

GP , DENTAL , OP SERVICE , OPTICIANS , ETC All have appointments systems

' community nursing ' Can you just !!!!!!!! pop in service frustrating ! staff under pressure , stressed , moral low

unable to take any more
Edited by: "aw08" 17th Jan
33080977-m8CO3.jpg

Looks like the beginning of a sensible correction after a few years of excess. Will also help reduce tea and biscuit expenditure.
It would be interesting to see a detailed break down of the numbers.

How many of those 33k left because they reached retirement age?, how many left due to ill health?, how many died?, how many went into private sector nursing, how many went to work in a related corporate role?, How many left to have kids? etc

I know a nurse who left the NHS last year, after a chance meeting she was offered a job paying 10 x her NHS salary and some amazing perks.
DKLS11 m ago

It would be interesting to see a detailed break down of the numbers.How …It would be interesting to see a detailed break down of the numbers.How many of those 33k left because they reached retirement age?, how many left due to ill health?, how many died?, how many went into private sector nursing, how many went to work in a related corporate role?, How many left to have kids? etc I know a nurse who left the NHS last year, after a chance meeting she was offered a job paying 10 x her NHS salary and some amazing perks.


Oh you can’t show figures like that, that’s not allowed, only headline figures. Yesterday we were told that if we spend £70 billion on transport in the north it would bring £100 billion and 800,000 jobs with it in 30 years of course it does. Our local council does free concerts each summer costs £200k for 1 concert, we get told it brings in £500k to the local economy, which sounds great but since its a Sunday our town centre has three shops open in that day, means the local fair ground , ice cream parlour and about 4 local restaurants are making a fortune on that day. Great finger in the air figures normally theses ones will be backed up with facts though we will never see them.
"Nurses are being pulled off research work, special projects and admin roles to plug the gaps"

I didn't know that nurses were employed in admin roles - doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
aw0824 m ago

the nursing profession gone to the dogs


Very true
33081160-afM3U.jpg
eslick11 m ago

Oh you can’t show figures like that, that’s not allowed, only headline fig …Oh you can’t show figures like that, that’s not allowed, only headline figures. Yesterday we were told that if we spend £70 billion on transport in the north it would bring £100 billion and 800,000 jobs with it in 30 years of course it does. Our local council does free concerts each summer costs £200k for 1 concert, we get told it brings in £500k to the local economy, which sounds great but since its a Sunday our town centre has three shops open in that day, means the local fair ground , ice cream parlour and about 4 local restaurants are making a fortune on that day. Great finger in the air figures normally theses ones will be backed up with facts though we will never see them.


I could compare notes about the benefits of Tour de Yorkshire.
Original Poster
DKLS25 m ago

It would be interesting to see a detailed break down of the numbers.How …It would be interesting to see a detailed break down of the numbers.How many of those 33k left because they reached retirement age?, how many left due to ill health?, how many died?, how many went into private sector nursing, how many went to work in a related corporate role?, How many left to have kids? etc I know a nurse who left the NHS last year, after a chance meeting she was offered a job paying 10 x her NHS salary and some amazing perks.


Bit further down in the same article:

Quote:
"Where are the nurses going?

The figures do not show where these nurses went, although the BBC has been told the private sector, including agencies, drug firms and hospitals, is particularly popular.

A fifth of leavers in the past year were over 55 - the age at which nurses can start retiring on a full pension.

33081216-SzN5x.jpg"
Edited by: "m00head" 17th Jan
m00head15 m ago

Bit further down in the same article:Quote:"Where are the nurses going?The …Bit further down in the same article:Quote:"Where are the nurses going?The figures do not show where these nurses went, although the BBC has been told the private sector, including agencies, drug firms and hospitals, is particularly popular.A fifth of leavers in the past year were over 55 - the age at which nurses can start retiring on a full pension.[Image] "


The numbers are way too low on detail to draw any real conclusions other than some govt bashing headlines, leavers could be leaving for a 1001 reasons according to this site there are circa 300,000 nurses in NHS England so 10% leaving isn't a number I would be surprised at.

But with some detailed analysis the numbers would give a much better picture of what problems there are, so they can be tackled

The trust where my mrs works the single biggest causes of long term sickness and leaving the trust is patients assaulting staff but that doesn't make the news.
Banned
MUST BE BREXIT LETS NOT BOTHER is the undertone.

Not enough nurses for the 3.4 million EU economic migrants who have turned up on our shores including the 440,000 children.
Won't be too much longer before the NHS is privatised.
All according to plan.

Yet you still have people voting Conservative, practically shooting themselves in the foot.
Graham197910 m ago

MUST BE BREXIT LETS NOT BOTHER is the undertone.Not enough nurses for the …MUST BE BREXIT LETS NOT BOTHER is the undertone.Not enough nurses for the 3.4 million EU economic migrants who have turned up on our shores including the 440,000 children.


Graham, public services including the NHS are scalable so the problem lies in the way successive governments have managed them.

Having people like you moan about immigrants is what they want you to do rather than asking where the investment has gone.
Uranus17th Jan

Won't be too much longer before the NHS is privatised.All according to …Won't be too much longer before the NHS is privatised.All according to plan.Yet you still have people voting Conservative, practically shooting themselves in the foot.


Because the alternative isn't viable.
I'd also wager that the NMW is starting to have an impact. As I said at the onset, it's blurring the lines between unskilled, semi-skilled and professional roles, particularly after capped pay increases in the public sector. A nurse starts on £22k - Aldi checkout staff are on nearly £18k. I'm finding retention more and more difficult with skilled, talented staff moving into even general retail for better pay.
Edited by: "fivegoldstars" 17th Jan
As the population increases so does the demand on the NHS and there workers. I blame liblabcon voters, mainly labour voters.
My brother's misses recently finished nursing at Uni, it's hard to get places, she finished top and got a 1st (or whatever it was in nursing) and worked in an end of life home before hand for years and still had to wait for a place where she wanted study. She also said alot of people drop out during the first year or so, because you need such good qualifications now people have other options than mucking up poop be quickly decide it's not for them. If you want to increase the amount of nursing return to on job training schemes.

I'd also like to see the same figures for HCA's and other frontline non "degree" staff, .

System is messed up on so many levels you can't blame one political party or aspect. The problems of the NHS have been snowballing for decades.
Edited by: "catbeans" 17th Jan
SOUTHWALES1 h, 22 m ago

As the population increases so does the demand on the NHS and there …As the population increases so does the demand on the NHS and there workers. I blame liblabcon voters, mainly labour voters.


As the population increases, so does the pool of potential nurses and the tax take.

You blaming all three major parties shows just how its a problem across the political spectrum.
Banned
HotEnglishAndWelshDeals3 h, 45 m ago

Graham, public services including the NHS are scalable so the problem lies …Graham, public services including the NHS are scalable so the problem lies in the way successive governments have managed them.Having people like you moan about immigrants is what they want you to do rather than asking where the investment has gone.


The investment is irrelevant (we now invest more than ever) when you have open doors as not matter what you do you can't plan for the people arriving or leaving. NOT TO WORRY however France says we have to pay them to solve THEIR economic migrants camping in France. Not refugees as they have past through several safe countries to get to France.
Graham197921 m ago

The investment is irrelevant (we now invest more than ever) when you have …The investment is irrelevant (we now invest more than ever) when you have open doors as not matter what you do you can't plan for the people arriving or leaving. NOT TO WORRY however France says we have to pay them to solve THEIR economic migrants camping in France. Not refugees as they have past through several safe countries to get to France.


Of course you can plan for people arriving and leaving. In fact you can plan for population growth and shifting demographics. A country with an ageing population requires immigrants.

But you've missed the point that services are scalable. We can react to changes and plan accordingly, except we didn't. Successive governments allowed the NHS to be poorly managed and then privatised yet people like you give them a free pass so you can moan about immigration.

It's kinda tragic.
Was the NHS not the UKs largest employer, about 1million employees. So 33,000 leavers is 3.3% of the workforce. Sounds about normal to me.
Not all are leaving the NHS completely, some will be going to agencies to help screw the NHS.
I heard someone on the radio say that they left because of the state of the place and will come back when its better. That's the spirit! Why stay and try and help make something better when you can just leave and come back when someone else has done all the hard work?
g8spur1 h, 49 m ago

I heard someone on the radio say that they left because of the state of …I heard someone on the radio say that they left because of the state of the place and will come back when its better. That's the spirit! Why stay and try and help make something better when you can just leave and come back when someone else has done all the hard work?



The only thing that will improve things is the removal from office of the Health Secretary. He's been in the job for more than five years and there's been no improvement in the service the NHS provides, in fact things are far worse now than when he was appointed. His people skills are virtually non-existant, waiting times are increasing all over the country and patients are still being attended to in corridors. This is not on, time for some new blood in my opinion.

I'm no gynaecologist but I know a useless Hunt when I see one.


33085458-dkyPB.jpg
themorgatron3 h, 28 m ago

Not all are leaving the NHS completely, some will be going to agencies to …Not all are leaving the NHS completely, some will be going to agencies to help screw the NHS.


This must be one of the main contributing factors. Agencies have been screwing the NHS for years now.
Avatar
deleted265520
.MUFC.17th Jan

This must be one of the main contributing factors. Agencies have been …This must be one of the main contributing factors. Agencies have been screwing the NHS for years now.


Under funding and mismanagement.
Too much focus on contracts that benefit a few at the expense of the health service.

Yet you and Graham will blame Pavel from Poland and Slav from Serbia.
DT8918th Jan

Under funding and mismanagement.Too much focus on contracts that benefit a …Under funding and mismanagement.Too much focus on contracts that benefit a few at the expense of the health service.Yet you and Graham will blame Pavel from Poland and Slav from Serbia.


I agree with your first points.

Pavel and Slav do contribute to the problem though, Even if it's not as extreme as it's made out, It's a contributing factor, Health tourists exist, That is fact!.
Oneday7714 h, 8 m ago

Was the NHS not the UKs largest employer, about 1million employees. So …Was the NHS not the UKs largest employer, about 1million employees. So 33,000 leavers is 3.3% of the workforce. Sounds about normal to me.


According to Wikipedia the NHS is the fifth biggest employer not far behind the US/Chinese Armed forces and Walmart & Mcdonalds at 1.7 million staff.
DKLS1 h, 36 m ago

According to Wikipedia the NHS is the fifth biggest employer not far …According to Wikipedia the NHS is the fifth biggest employer not far behind the US/Chinese Armed forces and Walmart & Mcdonalds at 1.7 million staff.



Are you saying

1/ that there are fewer employees in France and Germany as well as Italy for their health services? How about Canada?
or
2/ is size of the employer the issue?
Original Poster
33087420-aA60X.jpg
splender40 m ago

Are you saying 1/ that there are fewer employees in France and Germany as …Are you saying 1/ that there are fewer employees in France and Germany as well as Italy for their health services? How about Canada?or 2/ is size of the employer the issue?


1. Based on that page which lists the top global employers, the rest of Europe and Canada don't get a mention so assume its much lower. or harder to gather the information due to mixed healthcare modals. Canada would be a lot less anyway seeing as they have about 30 million less people than we do.

2. Could be, the bigger the organisation the harder it is to implement change, I find it amazing that the NHS now has more staff than McDonalds which is a global operation.
Banned
HotEnglishAndWelshDeals17 h, 15 m ago

Of course you can plan for people arriving and leaving. In fact you can …Of course you can plan for people arriving and leaving. In fact you can plan for population growth and shifting demographics. A country with an ageing population requires immigrants.But you've missed the point that services are scalable. We can react to changes and plan accordingly, except we didn't. Successive governments allowed the NHS to be poorly managed and then privatised yet people like you give them a free pass so you can moan about immigration.It's kinda tragic.


NO we really can't respond to changes, it takes years and years to train nurses and even longer for doctors, dentists and specialists. We only require immigrants WITH SKILLS and QUALIFICATIONS that we need, we don't need illiterate farmers, country bumpkins, the unskilled and incapable. which is why economic migrants are seeking more money and an easier lifestyle come to the UK. Free healthcare is a huge draw for them along with a nanny state that will cater to their every needs.

Secondly, when I pop along to the local hospital I see many doctors of Asain heritage not European ones. A good doctor in Czech will earn the same as a good doctor in England, they have no need or reason to move. There is a trade off, we get junior doctors from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan who help prop up the NHS. They get paid substantially more than they would back home and receive the best training in the world. These skills and qualifications then mean they're free pretty much to work anywhere else in the world while commanding a higher rate of pay. NOBODY can be silly enough to think these junior doctors are working in the UK for the love of treating their old colonial masters, drunks, druggies and the rest.


The privatisation of the NHS started towards the end on John Major's government but went into hysteria under Tony Blair, he knew that the NHS was unaffordable and with ever increasing demands knew it was doomed. Again he was quite happy to have uncontrolled migration and the huge pressures this has placed on the NHS. Be under no illusion, the sad truth is the NHS is a dying beast, unsustainable no matter how much we pump into it. No politician will admit to this as they don't want to be in "power" when it finally flops over and dies.

How many paediatricians have come from the EU to the UK? we have 440,000+ children from the EU? Are we running at a net deficit or gain? Not to worry though its scalable so we can get a few from the job centre
DKLS36 m ago

1. Based on that page which lists the top global employers, the rest of …1. Based on that page which lists the top global employers, the rest of Europe and Canada don't get a mention so assume its much lower. or harder to gather the information due to mixed healthcare modals. Canada would be a lot less anyway seeing as they have about 30 million less people than we do.2. Could be, the bigger the organisation the harder it is to implement change, I find it amazing that the NHS now has more staff than McDonalds which is a global operation.


The more staff that McDonald's gets, the more the NHS needs 😁
Banned
DT8918th Jan

Under funding and mismanagement.Too much focus on contracts that benefit a …Under funding and mismanagement.Too much focus on contracts that benefit a few at the expense of the health service.Yet you and Graham will blame Pavel from Poland and Slav from Serbia.


Pavel or Slav doctors, nurses, STEM background? If not we don't need them!

Problem is you have the view that each EU country has the same levels of education, they don't! We have millions of unemployed hidden away from official statistics on zero hour contracts et al. The problem in this country is CHOICE, we give people a choice not to work, to claim benefits and sit about. Train our own not others!

EDIT

I'm all in favour of a welfare state just not a welfarce state!
Edited by: "Graham1979" 18th Jan
The question, based upon BBC reporting standards, is this because of / despite Brexit?
Original Poster
Liverpool_Bear26 m ago

The question, based upon BBC reporting standards, is this because of / …The question, based upon BBC reporting standards, is this because of / despite Brexit?


The BBC article doesn't say that Brexit is definitely responsible, only suggesting that "Brexit may have had an impact."

Meanwhile, Ross Clark writing for the Daily Mail back in November, is of the opinion that the two things are completely unrelated:

Brexit vote did not cause a staffing crisis in an NHS heavily reliant on EU workers - Daily Mail
dailymail.co.uk/new…tml
Edited by: "m00head" 18th Jan
m00head8 m ago

The BBC article doesn't say that Brexit is definitely responsible, only …The BBC article doesn't say that Brexit is definitely responsible, only suggesting that "Brexit may have had an impact."Meanwhile, Ross Clark writing for the Daily Mail back in November, is of the opinion that the two things are completely unrelated:Brexit vote did not cause a staffing crisis in an NHS heavily reliant on EU workers - Daily Mailhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5071847/Brexit-vote-did-not-cause-NHS-staffing-crisis.html


The BBC's standard line is:

Bad News - because of Brexit.
Good News - despite Brexit.
If they paid nurses a bit more, there would be more Brits studying nursing and no need to go and get them in Africa.

The NHS funds some courses, like nursing (as I've looked into it), but it's a tough job and not paid adequately IMO.

Studying for a degree (which takes years and money and sacrifices) and getting the same as some unqualified jobs is disgraceful.
Edited by: "hearts22" 18th Jan
hearts2216 m ago

If they paid nurses a bit more, there would be more Brits studying nursing …If they paid nurses a bit more, there would be more Brits studying nursing and no need to go and get them in Africa.The NHS funds some courses, like nursing (as I've looked into it), but it's a tough job and not paid adequately IMO.Studying for a degree (which takes years and money and sacrifices) and getting the same as some unqualified jobs is disgraceful.


Nursing is a well paid profession, with a very easy career progression. It has an excellent pension, and the option of a generous early retirement.

Nursing shouldn't be trying to attract people looking for a well paid job.
themorgatron1 h, 4 m ago

Nursing is a well paid profession, with a very easy career progression. It …Nursing is a well paid profession, with a very easy career progression. It has an excellent pension, and the option of a generous early retirement.Nursing shouldn't be trying to attract people looking for a well paid job.


I quote: "Fully qualified nurses start on salaries of £22,128 rising to £28,746 on Band 5 of the NHS Agenda for Change Pay Rates".

That's not well-paid to me for someone who has to have a degree in medical stuff and work long hours. Should be 28K minimum when starting.

My partner left school at 15 and earns more than that doing an unskilled job in a train company


Lots of doctors decide to do medicine because it is a profession known to have nice salaries and not because they're so eager to cure people. Don't kid yourself.

Anyway, wanting to be a doctor or a nurse for the right reasons and also being paid well isn't a crime!

I'd rather have nurses doing it also for the money that no nurses at all and poor health care as a result.

Unfortunately, I don't see how you can convince people to go for nursing without a financial incentive. The funded course is a good step but it's not enough.

It's not an easy job and this country has had a shortage of nurses for a long time now.
Edited by: "hearts22" 18th Jan
Post a comment
Avatar
@
    Text

    Top Discussions