Refunding £ amount or what was given? (Thoughts)

55
Found 15th Mar
I'm having bit of debate with people online and looking for some people on here stance on it, this is about bitcoin.

If you was buying something from someone and you agree on 500£, so you send over the guy 500£ in bitcoin which at this moment in time it 0.085 BTC 500£, 2 weeks past and the deal falls through and the seller needs to refund you,


Since the sale Bitcoin has x2 In value
Does the seller only send you back half 0.043 BTC(500£) or the original 0.085 (1000£) you sent



Since the Sale Bitcoin has halfed in value
Does the seller have to go to buy another 0.085 (250£) and send you back 0.17 BTC (500£)

or send you back the original 0.085 (250£)


I have my opionon on which one was more logical but don't want to beat a dead horse
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Sounds like you struck 2 contracts. One was the price of the goods in GBP. Second was to convert the GBP to Bitcoin
You should get the £500 worth not the increased amount..

Same works for if you buy from abroad in a foreign currency you shouldn't get the difference either..

That's how the software i worked on for a large distribution company worked anyway. They recorded the currency worth each day and refunded so that it would be the same amount back in taking out any fluctuations, obviously that's slightly different as you don't get such large % swings in currencies in day to day running as you do with bitcoin
Edited by: "winifer" 15th Mar
ouch, thats a humdinger!

I would say as the deal was in pounds first, its should be £500. SO the seller will have to refund you the £500 or equivalent (so the same on BTC).

IF the sale was in BTC, then it would be the same BTC amount.
winifer5 m ago

You should get the £500 worth not the increased amount..Same works for if …You should get the £500 worth not the increased amount..Same works for if you buy from abroad in a foreign currency you shouldn't get the difference either.. That's how the software i worked on for a large distribution company worked anyway. They recorded the currency worth each day and refunded so that it would be the same amount back in taking out any fluctuations, obviously that's slightly different as you don't get such large % swings in currencies in day to day running as you do with bitcoin


So let's pretend your selling a TV, 2 weeks later sales falls through, you know have to go buy 250£ of more bitcoin to refund him and you lost money, surely in my opionon just sending back the decimal amount will leave more parties not out of pocket?
darthbacca3715th Mar

ouch, thats a humdinger!I would say as the deal was in pounds first, its …ouch, thats a humdinger!I would say as the deal was in pounds first, its should be £500. SO the seller will have to refund you the £500 or equivalent (so the same on BTC).IF the sale was in BTC, then it would be the same BTC amount.


Yes I'm starting to think maybe the answer is like someone said about is 2 contracts, so it needs to be a agreement on the deal if you want to do it £ amount or decimal amount, although by default it would be..... which one, if the deal was not discussed and the Bitcoin rose, the seller will course on insisting it to be £ amount as he will profit, and if it dropped in value the seller will insist on it being Decimal as he will lose out
lol does anyone actual think this is a real scenario?

anyway - if you agree on £ then thats surely the refund, how that is processed is a different matter and the value of the intermediate irrelvant
You should get £500 either way, if you agree on 0.85 Bitcoins then you'd get that back instead.

When I pay in dollars and get a refund, I get the same dollar amount back as that's the price in the currency I agreed to pay, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.
If the sale was agreed in £s I’d say send back £500 worth of bitcoin.
dcx_badass3 m ago

You should get £500 either way, if you agree on 0.85 Bitcoins then you'd …You should get £500 either way, if you agree on 0.85 Bitcoins then you'd get that back instead.When I pay in dollars and get a refund, I get the same dollar amount back as that's the price in the currency I agreed to pay, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.



brilly4 m ago

lol does anyone actual think this is a real scenario?anyway - if you agree …lol does anyone actual think this is a real scenario?anyway - if you agree on £ then thats surely the refund, how that is processed is a different matter and the value of the intermediate irrelvant


Does the seller have to go buy another 250£ in bitcoin if it halfed then?
your a seller and you have no lost 250£ from a sale that fell through

--- Example

your buying Tv for 400£, you agree to pay give him 4 Fitbits worth 100£ Each, deal falls through week later but Fitbits are now worth 200£ Each, does the seller only give you 2 back?

Ect Ect Ect, this for me is more of a comparisment rather then pound to euro going up and down
Creatishh15th Mar

Does the seller have to go buy another 250£ in bitcoin if it halfed then? …Does the seller have to go buy another 250£ in bitcoin if it halfed then? your a seller and you have no lost 250£ from a sale that fell through--- Exampleyour buying Tv for 400£, you agree to pay give him 4 Fitbits worth 100£ Each, deal falls through week later but Fitbits are now worth 200£ Each, does the seller only give you 2 back?Ect Ect Ect, this for me is more of a comparisment rather then pound to euro going up and down


you'd get back whatever was the amount you agreed on
brilly2 m ago

you'd get back whatever was the amount you agreed on


well you agreed on both,
500£ you agreed on and then you agreed on 0.085 Bitcoin

Like in my example if Fitbits doubled in value, would you only give 2 back?
In my opinion, I don't think you can agree on both, it's got to be one or the other.
Skaman2 m ago

In my opinion, I don't think you can agree on both, it's got to be one or …In my opinion, I don't think you can agree on both, it's got to be one or the other.


Yes, from what i am now thinking if the seller is going to accept such currency he needs to make clear before hand if there dealing with £ monetary amount or the decimal amount.

Both need to agree on this and then there is no arguments I guess, if you never agreed in this situation you have no course for getting what you think you should get back as the seller has your money and can just keep it
Creatishh15th Mar

well you agreed on both, 500£ you agreed on and then you agreed on 0.085 …well you agreed on both, 500£ you agreed on and then you agreed on 0.085 BitcoinLike in my example if Fitbits doubled in value, would you only give 2 back?


you cant agree on both - what was the basis for the value? sounds like £
the bitcoin conversion then follows naturally - there is nothing to agree
if it didn't follow the value properly then you need to rehaggle
brilly3 m ago

you cant agree on both - what was the basis for the value? sounds like …you cant agree on both - what was the basis for the value? sounds like £the bitcoin conversion then follows naturally - there is nothing to agreeif it didn't follow the value properly then you need to rehaggle



Yes, from what i am now thinking if the seller is going to accept such currency he needs to make clear before hand if there dealing with £ monetary amount or the decimal amount.

Both need to agree on this and then there is no arguments I guess, if you never agreed in this situation you have no course for getting what you think you should get back as the seller has your money and can just keep it




--- Brilly do you think this would be more fair?
Creatishh15th Mar

Yes, from what i am now thinking if the seller is going to accept such …Yes, from what i am now thinking if the seller is going to accept such currency he needs to make clear before hand if there dealing with £ monetary amount or the decimal amount.Both need to agree on this and then there is no arguments I guess, if you never agreed in this situation you have no course for getting what you think you should get back as the seller has your money and can just keep it--- Brilly do you think this would be more fair?


more fair than what? unless you provide the exact details of a specific case we dont have enough info to go on
its just common sense
brilly10 m ago

more fair than what? unless you provide the exact details of a specific …more fair than what? unless you provide the exact details of a specific case we dont have enough info to go onits just common sense


Well if not discussed I am talking about it being more fair to state beforehand if things go south it being £ amount or Decimal amount, because if not discussed the seller is going to pick which other variant is going to benefit him
If this is your name on a few of them shady websites I think it's going to be difficult to get the full amount back.
They are just full of people wanting to make quick money and then run. You can open scam reports and the seller gets banned, but that's about it.

If it's not you then I do apologise.
Poppyj13 m ago

If this is your name on a few of them shady websites I think it's going to …If this is your name on a few of them shady websites I think it's going to be difficult to get the full amount back.They are just full of people wanting to make quick money and then run. You can open scam reports and the seller gets banned, but that's about it. If it's not you then I do apologise.


I am not in a position of this scenario, I am purely curious on how this sort of thing should work naturally, I think the best thing now is to decide when the deal is made if its £ amount your agreeing to or the bitcoin amount
Creatishh15th Mar

Well if not discussed I am talking about it being more fair to state …Well if not discussed I am talking about it being more fair to state beforehand if things go south it being £ amount or Decimal amount, because if not discussed the seller is going to pick which other variant is going to benefit him


there should be no need to state before hand as you are valuing the item based on one currency
the intermediate currency is not relevant unless it was altered from a direct value exchange


i dont even know why i got sucked into this post - it was always obviously just wind blowing out of a backside!
is anyone actually in this position? or is this a theoretical discussion about another theoretical discussion?!
Edited by: "brilly" 15th Mar
brilly2 m ago

there should be n need to state before hand as you are valuing the item …there should be n need to state before hand as you are valuing the item based on one currencythe intermediate currency is not relevant unless it was altered from a direct value exchange


So in your opinion then if bitcoin was to drop in price and is worth now peanuts, the seller can not argue that he wants to send back the original Decimal bitcoin amount?

I only say this because most sellers will try to argue this if they was going to lose out
It depends entirely on the technicals. As In whether the negotiated price was in gbp or btc. Which ever it was is what should be refunded to you.
The question is just silly though. And only underlines that BTC is not a currency in any meaningful sense.
mas991 h, 49 m ago

The question is just silly though. And only underlines that BTC is not a …The question is just silly though. And only underlines that BTC is not a currency in any meaningful sense.



Disagree. Cards now give you the choice when abroad of paying in local or home currency. Acccordingly, any return/refund woudl be based on the chosen currency
ccnp19 m ago

Disagree. Cards now give you the choice when abroad of paying in local or …Disagree. Cards now give you the choice when abroad of paying in local or home currency. Acccordingly, any return/refund woudl be based on the chosen currency


You clearly dont understand how that works. The invoice amount is in the local currency, in the event of a refund thats what you get.

The fact that you have an option to be billed in your local currency is because someone is handling the currency conversion.

In some cases that might be the merchant provider, or as is increasingly common, the vendor will offer price in gbp which will usually be at a worse exchange rate than the visa rate.


The sensible response to the OP is that people should be back where they started as the transaction has been cancelled - so the BTC amount should be returned as the payment was made in BTC and the conversion from GBP to BTC was made by the buyer before the purchase.

Currency risk is well understood and dealt with every day across the world. One of the problems with BTC etc is that they are not currencies in any meaningful way. They are closer to commodities and have a level of volatility which makes them unsuitable for financial use.
Lets reframe it.

OP agrees to buy a TV for £500.
OP and seller agree that instead of £500 the seller will take a bag of magic tulip bulbs.

OP buys bag of magic tulip bulbs.

OP gives seller bag of magic tulip bulbs in exchange for TV. 1 TV = 1 bag magic tulip bulbs.

OP and seller decide to change their minds.

Is the sensible way forward to swap back the TV and the bag of magic tulip bulbs ? Yes.


If on the other hand the seller had suddenly decided that he wanted to buy the TV back (can't imagine why, they are very pretty magic tulip bulbs ), then you would be in a position to renegotiate the relative values of TVs and magic tulip bulbs.
OP wants someone to say £1000
You should receive back the same amount of currency that actually changed hands. Regardless of what was agreed on the physical value.

Look at it this way. You agree to swap a mars bar for a twix. Then the deal spurs and you realise the twix is now worth double if purchased with minstrels. Should you only get one finger back or both?

The deal was to swap one good for another. Just reverse that trade.
Oneday776 m ago

You should receive back the same amount of currency that actually changed …You should receive back the same amount of currency that actually changed hands. Regardless of what was agreed on the physical value. Look at it this way. You agree to swap a mars bar for a twix. Then the deal spurs and you realise the twix is now worth double if purchased with minstrels. Should you only get one finger back or both?The deal was to swap one good for another. Just reverse that trade.


I agree I think if you send 0.1 BTC the refund should be 0.1 regardless of value, don't see why a seller would profit or loss money on a refund
The seller is required to reimburse you into a position that you were in before the transaction took place. So they either need to give £500 or the equivalent BTC amount.
I think if you bought the item for £500 then you should be refunded £500. Otherwise you/they would have stipulated the price in BTC not £.
Legally - I believe the seller would need to refund the exact amount which actually changed hands, so they are not worse off had the sale never happened.

Morally - depends on who pulled out of the sale and the reason why....?
This is actually quite simple... it all hinges on what currency was used to ‘value’ the item (all other exchanges into other currency after that are irrelevant.) The seller chose to keep the value of the TV stored in BTC after the sale - they could have exchanged it back to GBP if they so desired... everyone knows crypto currency is volatile so has to accept the risks that it can rise or fall. Had BTC doubled overnight would the seller have paid half of it back to the buyer as it would then have been £1k that the buyer had sent them??? I don’t think so!
If the TV was valued at £500 or BTC equivalent then the refund should be for £500 or BTC equivalent. If TV value was only ever discussed in BTC value then a BTC refund of how ever many BTC is appropriate.
Creatishh15th Mar

I agree I think if you send 0.1 BTC the refund should be 0.1 regardless of …I agree I think if you send 0.1 BTC the refund should be 0.1 regardless of value, don't see why a seller would profit or loss money on a refund


op obviously had idea fixed in head before thread, i am guessing a group of people all told him he was wrong then waited for soemone to agree with him
Oneday7719 h, 5 m ago

You should receive back the same amount of currency that actually changed …You should receive back the same amount of currency that actually changed hands. Regardless of what was agreed on the physical value. Look at it this way. You agree to swap a mars bar for a twix. Then the deal spurs and you realise the twix is now worth double if purchased with minstrels. Should you only get one finger back or both?The deal was to swap one good for another. Just reverse that trade.


depends whos dad is bigger
brilly41 s ago

depends whos dad is bigger


You can take the measurements.
Oneday771 m ago

You can take the measurements.


standing up or lying down?
brilly12 m ago

op obviously had idea fixed in head before thread, i am guessing a group …op obviously had idea fixed in head before thread, i am guessing a group of people all told him he was wrong then waited for soemone to agree with him


There is no right or wrong on this subject, the current rule is decimal which I agree with, (on this instance)

I can see why both ways can be used, but from this discussion it seems the best way to be dealt with is it said before hand on whether the deal is for the decimal or the £ amount.
Edited by: "Creatishh" 16th Mar
buttonpushervic3 h, 30 m ago

This is actually quite simple... it all hinges on what currency was used …This is actually quite simple... it all hinges on what currency was used to ‘value’ the item (all other exchanges into other currency after that are irrelevant.) The seller chose to keep the value of the TV stored in BTC after the sale - they could have exchanged it back to GBP if they so desired... everyone knows crypto currency is volatile so has to accept the risks that it can rise or fall. Had BTC doubled overnight would the seller have paid half of it back to the buyer as it would then have been £1k that the buyer had sent them??? I don’t think so!If the TV was valued at £500 or BTC equivalent then the refund should be for £500 or BTC equivalent. If TV value was only ever discussed in BTC value then a BTC refund of how ever many BTC is appropriate.


they could havce exchanged it back to GBP if they so desired...


No, until the deal is complete they should not touch that money, you don't ever see in other instances of sales them saying sorry we don't have your £ we changed it.
Creatishh16th Mar

There is no right or wrong on this subject, the current rule is decimal …There is no right or wrong on this subject, the current rule is decimal which I agree with, I can see why both ways can be used, but from this discussion it seems the best way to be dealt with is it said before hand on whether the deal is for the decimal or the £ amount.


the current 'rule' ...
which rule is this? one in a specific place with its own terms and conditions which obviously you would follow or the real world where you'd follow real world real rules?

p.s is the usage of digital currency really referred to as 'decimal'?
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