Sad news about Labour minister commits suicide

122
Found 7th Nov 2017
Carl Sargeant, 49, lost his job as cabinet secretary for communities and children last Friday.

He was suspended from Labour after the first minister learned of a number of alleged incidents involving women.


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splender3 m ago

Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.But the outcome is …Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.But the outcome is the same, death, 1/ suicide 2/ commit to execution after trial.Death from 1/ self inflicted due to ? which itself is due to allegations leading to impact on living (which was not there prior to allegations).Death from 2/ guilty with evidence and executed.Corollary, he died 1/ or 2/ , in both cases there were third parties whose absence would have resulted in no death.





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farmlama36 m ago

.the fact here is that there was enough evidence to sack him (we don't ….the fact here is that there was enough evidence to sack him (we don't know all the facts, what's to say this was purely based on someone's accusation and there wasn't other evidence. The fact he was sacked suggests there was enough)


Sadly no evidence whatsoever is needed to sack someone on these instances. Simply the word of someone against someone else is all that is required.

farmlama36 m ago

Can you imagine being attacked, feeling vulnerable and then for your …Can you imagine being attacked, feeling vulnerable and then for your friends to call you a lier and to support your attacker because the poor guy has to put up with the mean words?


It is not just "mean words" though it is? It is literally ruining someones life with no evidence, no trial, no jury. Once the evidence has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt then yes the perpetrator deserves everything they get but until such time they are innocent until proven guilty.

farmlama36 m ago

because victims are looked at as guilty of being a lying trollop from day …because victims are looked at as guilty of being a lying trollop from day 1. But still let's stick up for Everyman who gets accused because a tiny percent of people have made false allegations



The accused is also looked at as being guilty from day 1, and as above this will ruin their life. It must be truly horrible to go through abuse and also horrible to go through the process of reporting it but due process needs to be followed.
For one thing some people seem to have made accusations that verge on the ridiculous (His hand brushed against my bottom as he walked past for example).

farmlama36 m ago

in fact a mugging is more likely to be falsely reported because of …in fact a mugging is more likely to be falsely reported because of insurance fraud for the victim to put in a claim with their insurers and they need a crime number.



In your example of a mugging if the victim waited 20 years to report it and had no proof whatsoever they would be laughed out of the police station.

a number of alleged incidents


Trial by media for you!
122 Comments

a number of alleged incidents


Trial by media for you!

The media hasn’t learned anything from similar allegations concerning people in the public eye over the few years. Maybe Carl Sargeant was guilty, but it’s for a court to decide rather than the press. I’m betting that most of the allegations are phoney anyway.

Predikuesi23 m ago

I’m betting that most of the allegations are phoney anyway.


Seems unlikely that a majority of allegations would be false unless there was a vendetta against him.

davewave1 h, 4 m ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41904161


u ok hun?

If there is nothing stronger than knee touching then those that made complaint should be ashamed.

No doubt the details will follow over the coming weeks. If not, there must be a public enquiry into why allegations are made public before any defence is given opportunity.
Edited by: "Dilithium" 7th Nov 2017

Original Poster

Agharta39 m ago

Seems unlikely that a majority of allegations would be false unless there …Seems unlikely that a majority of allegations would be false unless there was a vendetta against him.


possible there was a vendetta, but I think it was true, however due process is crucial.

Dilithium7 m ago

If there is nothing stronger than knee touching then those that made …If there is nothing stronger than knee touching then those that made complaint should be ashamed.No doubt the details will follow over the coming weeks. If not, there must be a public enquiry into why allegations are made public before any defence is given opportunity.



Why should they?

They didn't kill him.

He's either done some absolutely nasty stuff or he wasn't stable or in a right frame of mind for this.

Graham19791 h, 19 m ago

a number of alleged incidentsTrial by media for you!



It was concurrent sentencing and trial.

Original Poster

teh.arn2 m ago

Why should they?They didn't kill him.He's either done some absolutely …Why should they?They didn't kill him.He's either done some absolutely nasty stuff or he wasn't stable or in a right frame of mind for this.


"If there is nothing stronger than knee touching" surely it would be unfair to push a man over the edge?

davewave1 m ago

"If there is nothing stronger than knee touching" surely it would be …"If there is nothing stronger than knee touching" surely it would be unfair to push a man over the edge?


Sexual harassment is sexual harassment.
If the person liked and welcomed it they most likely wouldn't have complained.

Original Poster

teh.arn1 m ago

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. If the person liked and welcomed …Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. If the person liked and welcomed it they most likely wouldn't have complained.


unless a political agenda, which wouldnt be unheard of, in Westminster, dontcha think?

davewave1 m ago

unless a political agenda, which wouldnt be unheard of, in Westminster, …unless a political agenda, which wouldnt be unheard of, in Westminster, dontcha think?


Like I said, he's either done something nasty or wasn't in the right frame of mind.
No one should be held to account for another persons actions (Unless they manipulated/coerced etc) .

teh.arn12 m ago

Why should they?They didn't kill him.He's either done some absolutely …Why should they?They didn't kill him.He's either done some absolutely nasty stuff or he wasn't stable or in a right frame of mind for this.



Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.

But the outcome is the same, death, 1/ suicide 2/ commit to execution after trial.

Death from 1/ self inflicted due to ? which itself is due to allegations leading to impact on living (which was not there prior to allegations).
Death from 2/ guilty with evidence and executed.

Corollary, he died 1/ or 2/ , in both cases there were third parties whose absence would have resulted in no death.
Edited by: "splender" 7th Nov 2017

splender3 m ago

Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.But the outcome is …Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.But the outcome is the same, death, 1/ suicide 2/ commit to execution after trial.Death from 1/ self inflicted due to ? which itself is due to allegations leading to impact on living (which was not there prior to allegations).Death from 2/ guilty with evidence and executed.Corollary, he died 1/ or 2/ , in both cases there were third parties whose absence would have resulted in no death.





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There was a woman on the news last week who said she had reported someone for touching her, although it was nothing sexual. Wtf !!

Agharta1 h, 47 m ago

Seems unlikely that a majority of allegations would be false unless there …Seems unlikely that a majority of allegations would be false unless there was a vendetta against him.


Woman 'made up claims she was sexually assaulted by 15 attackers' and sent 'innocent man to jail'mirror.co.uk/new…225

WHAT CHANCE DOES A MAN STAND, WHEN IN A SYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE?

Banned

Graham19794 m ago

Woman 'made up claims she was sexually assaulted by 15 attackers' and sent …Woman 'made up claims she was sexually assaulted by 15 attackers' and sent 'innocent man to jail'http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-made-up-claims-sexually-10622225WHAT CHANCE DOES A MAN STAND, WHEN IN A SYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE?


She got 10 years for that

Crocodile tears being shed by a bunch of two faced back stabbing politicians. How touching.

Graham197916 m ago

Woman 'made up claims she was sexually assaulted by 15 attackers' and sent …Woman 'made up claims she was sexually assaulted by 15 attackers' and sent 'innocent man to jail'http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-made-up-claims-sexually-10622225WHAT CHANCE DOES A MAN STAND, WHEN IN A SYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE?


Justice isn't 100% accurate no doubt.
But in this case I was responding to alleged multiple claims against one person where the odds are more in favour of the accusers at first glance.

Simply, I like to draw my conclusion of various reasonings:-

1/ He died because he knew that he would be found guilty and was afraid, or
2/ He died because he knew that he would be found not guilty but the negative impact would be unbearable to himself; or
3/ He died because he knew that he would be found not guilty but the impact would be unbearable to his family and those close to him; (he sacrificed himeself for the protection of others) or
4/ He died because he was in a moment of turbulent mental state; or
5/ He died because not of the allegations but in a thoroughout investigation could reveal some other unbearable truth; or
6/ He felt his honour and his family's would be more assured after suicide; or
7/ Whether guilty or not, from 2/ or 3/ above; his lifestyle and/or livelihood could be so adversely affected that a life insurance policy claim could see his family better off with his death than with him alive and found not guilty; or
8/ Suicide to prove one's innocence in an absolute way. He was afraid of how "messy" lengthy investigations could be politically after what had gone before within his knowledge.

I don't know which of the above is a likely, however,

The Impact of Being Wrongly Accused of Abuse in Occupations of Trust: Victims’ Voices, Carolyn Hoyle Naomi Ellen Speechley and Ros Burnett University of Oxford Centre for Criminology (2016)

Quote in its introduction (page 3):-

Accusations of serious criminality, especially alleged sexual wrongdoing, are often their own convictions in the high court of public opinion because the stigma is so severe, and because definitively proving innocence in a disputed sex case often is impossible.

History is full of innocent men and women who have been sent to jail for crimes they did not commit. I (David Jones) am not too naïve to realise that it could easily have happened to me. Before my trial began, relatively few people could understand how a former care worker could possibly be facing more than 20 counts of physical and sexual abuse from four separate accusers, and claim he was innocent and that all the allegations were false. By the time the trial had collapsed, practically everyone knew the explanation.
(Jones, 2011: 141)

End of quote. The following is what I researched plus my personal view.

The explanation in above (trial collapsed) David Jones was a victim of ‘trawling’, if your trawl net is wide you will find enough people come forward with false allegations. In david Jones' case, 20 false allegations. I don't if the three allegations against Mr Sargeant are false, hence I offered all of the above scenarios from 1 to 8. I rest on a possible outcome in that a thoroughout investigation means a big trawling net is on its way?! Carl Sargeant was in the high court of public opinion and he felt that he should be in control of himself as his executioner, sadly.
Edited by: "splender" 7th Nov 2017

Kmore17 m ago

She got 10 years for that


She certainly did my little buttercup after ruining how many lives? The the bloke who got sent to the sex offenders wing for 12 months enjoyed his stay? Lets not forget their is not an automatic right to compensation for those wrongly jailed. Ask me this nutter should never be released

It is the imbalance in equality (women are not autometically beleived) and denial of the most basic and simple foundation of our law, INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Agharta9 m ago

Justice isn't 100% accurate no doubt.But in this case I was responding to …Justice isn't 100% accurate no doubt.But in this case I was responding to alleged multiple claims against one person where the odds are more in favour of the accusers at first glance.


Agreed, I did think that when typing before, 20 years ago before Facebook maybe but as soon as people became interconnected it begins to cast doubt as but now we have social media, HOW MANY CRANKS WHO HAVE NEVER MET HARVEY WEINSTEIN will come out the woodwork, they'll be believed not matter that they have no evidence of ever meeting the nutter? How many people who want their 15 minutes of fame at any cost will lie?

Had a similar discussion with a work colleague a few weeks back who thought it was right for the police to "assume" that any female victim would tell the truth and not lie, look on her face when I mentioned her husband and two sons who would be automatically disbelieved in any allegations, would she believe them or the woman making the claim?

Saturn1 h, 18 m ago

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I hope my long comment helps a long way towards an understanding of my reasoning to back up my shorter earlier posts.

Graham19794 m ago

HOW MANY CRANKS WHO HAVE NEVER MET HARVEY WEINSTEIN will come out the …HOW MANY CRANKS WHO HAVE NEVER MET HARVEY WEINSTEIN will come out the woodwork, they'll be believed not matter that they have no evidence of ever meeting the nutter?


In this case are the people making claims meant to have known him through work so not exactly random?

Graham197911 m ago

Had a similar discussion with a work colleague a few weeks back who …Had a similar discussion with a work colleague a few weeks back who thought it was right for the police to "assume" that any female victim would tell the truth and not lie, look on her face when I mentioned her husband and two sons who would be automatically disbelieved in any allegations, would she believe them or the woman making the claim?


I think the police as a rule have to assume that everyone is telling the truth unless they have evidence against that.
Of course there are many situations where it's one person's word against another but that's for the law to decide not the police.
I very much doubt the number of women that wrongly accuse men of serious sexual offences is statistically significant compared to all the actual sexual assaults that take place reported or otherwise.
So these small number of false claims shouldn't overly influence one when looking at the big picture.
Only people with an agenda will try and make more of something than it actually is.
So you will see that a lot on Misc.

Agharta12 m ago

In this case are the people making claims meant to have known him through …In this case are the people making claims meant to have known him through work so not exactly random?



In the case that I cited above, David Jones, as well as Roy Shuttleworth, the trawling meant that the police went to all those who could have possibly known them in the past (David Jones, Roy Shuttleworth). There is a view that a motive for some (false allegations) is money.
Edited by: "splender" 7th Nov 2017

Agharta28 m ago

I think the police as a rule have to assume that everyone is telling the …I think the police as a rule have to assume that everyone is telling the truth unless they have evidence against that.Of course there are many situations where it's one person's word against another but that's for the law to decide not the police.I very much doubt the number of women that wrongly accuse men of serious sexual offences is statistically significant compared to all the actual sexual assaults that take place reported or otherwise.So these small number of false claims shouldn't overly influence one when looking at the big picture.Only people with an agenda will try and make more of something than it actually is.So you will see that a lot on Misc.



The oath sworn by all warranted constables to her majesty is as follows;

“I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of constable with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,and that I will uphold fundamental human rights and accord equal respect to all people, according to law.”


It is not the job of the police to believe or not believe but to gather evidence, the second they stop being impartial we HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM! My fundamental rights under UK, EU (boo hiss) and the UN charter means I'm innocent until proven guilty, if the police believe somebody I've never met who claims I looked at her knee 25 years ago, WHAT CHANCE DO I STAND? What chance would your husband, sons, nephews, grandsons stand?
Edited by: "Graham1979" 7th Nov 2017

splender47 m ago

There is a view that a motive for some (false allegations) is money.


Which can be aimed at any situation and regardless of gender not that I imagine the financial rewards for being a victim of sexual harassment is that large or is it?

But this whole attitude which is seemingly pure speculation is part of the toxic environment which has kept a lid on all the inappropriate behaviour for so long.
If a woman makes a complaint throwing accusations that they are lying and doing so for money without a shred of evidence to back it up is misogynistic in my eyes.
It's one of the reasons why many women don't come forward because they know there will be a smear campaign by the usual creeps.
She's lying. She was drunk. She was dressed like a tart. She's known to be promiscuous.
These are the usual lines from those that like to undermine women.
I'm glad all these accusations are coming out now. The creeps have it coming to them.

Banned

Agharta6 m ago

If a woman makes a complaint throwing accusations that they are lying and …If a woman makes a complaint throwing accusations that they are lying and doing so for money without a shred of evidence to back it up is misogynistic in my eyes


To even suggest that women sometimes lie is always considered misogynistic in the eyes of radical feminists & the likes.

To everyone else living on the planet it is a reality.

Graham197942 m ago

It is not the job of the police to believe or not believe but to gather …It is not the job of the police to believe or not believe but to gather evidence, the second they stop being impartial we HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM! My fundamental rights means I'm innocent until proven guilty, if the police believe somebody I've never met who claims I looked at her knee 25 years ago, WHAT CHANCE DO I STAND?


I think you are trying and failing to hide behind a poor semantic argument.
If you report a crime to the police unless they have good reason to they treat it as being potentially true and investigate.
Taking your claim seriously and as being potentially truthful does not mean they are not impartial.
That's pretty obvious so not sure why you are going off on one!
Edited by: "Agharta" 7th Nov 2017

splender2 h, 31 m ago

Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.But the outcome is …Technically and legally no, no third party killed him.But the outcome is the same, death, 1/ suicide 2/ commit to execution after trial.Death from 1/ self inflicted due to ? which itself is due to allegations leading to impact on living (which was not there prior to allegations).Death from 2/ guilty with evidence and executed.Corollary, he died 1/ or 2/ , in both cases there were third parties whose absence would have resulted in no death.


Aww splender me old mate. You've truly excelled this time

Kmore13 m ago

To even suggest that women sometimes lie is always considered misogynistic …To even suggest that women sometimes lie is always considered misogynistic in the eyes of radical feminists & the likes.


People with an extreme or radical viewpoint aren't the most trusted in regard to being unbiased in relation to the issue they are engrossed with.
In this case though the issue is why are people with no admitted knowledge of the matter claiming the women could be lying which is a given for ANY situation and therefore is immaterial without evidence.
The fact that they need to bring it up says a lot about them and nothing about the actual case.
They've unwittingly shown their hand and their bias.
Edited by: "Agharta" 7th Nov 2017

As somebody who has been the victim of a sexual assault (my attacker was one of the measles 5% of this type of crime to end up with a conviction) I can say that the entire process of reporting this type of crime and following through is traumatic in itself and statistically it is a crime less likely to receive false reports.

The media live to talk about the evil women who make up these lies to ruin the poor defenceless mans life, but reality is that only a tiny percent of reports are false, but a huge percent of attackers walk away because it is often a crime lacking in evidence and one word against another. And of course the attacker will deny it, who is going to admit to being a sexual predator? Just because he isn't convicted, doesn't mean he isn't guilty, it just means there wasn't enough solid evidence to secure conviction.

this guys actions do not seem those of an innocent man though, they seem more the actions of someone who is scared that they have been caught and took the easy way out

deeky1 h, 8 m ago

Aww splender me old mate. You've truly excelled this time



Thank you.
A corpse in a mortuary, the deceased did not do anything wrong (no posthumous trial). A logical conclusion for any widower is that the corpse is as dead as the one that was executed after a cynical mock public trial, even when it was a suicide.

farmlama56 m ago

As somebody who has been the victim of a sexual assault (my attacker was …As somebody who has been the victim of a sexual assault (my attacker was one of the measles 5% of this type of crime to end up with a conviction) I can say that the entire process of reporting this type of crime and following through is traumatic in itself and statistically it is a crime less likely to receive false reports. The media live to talk about the evil women who make up these lies to ruin the poor defenceless mans life, but reality is that only a tiny percent of reports are false, but a huge percent of attackers walk away because it is often a crime lacking in evidence and one word against another. And of course the attacker will deny it, who is going to admit to being a sexual predator? Just because he isn't convicted, doesn't mean he isn't guilty, it just means there wasn't enough solid evidence to secure conviction.this guys actions do not seem those of an innocent man though, they seem more the actions of someone who is scared that they have been caught and took the easy way out



Another words what did he do factually as deceased is a corpse in a mortuary now?

You have suggested some unsubstantiated statistics from your first paragraph. Then you said, "this guys actions do not seem those of an innocent man though, they seem more the actions of someone who is scared that they have been caught and took the easy way out". In effect you are asserting a probability or statistics from past independent events (which is controversial in itself as no one can say definitively those who were found not guilty were in fact as guilty as hell) and because of this, is a reasonable explanation for his culpability (in contrast to innocence which has zero culpability)? This is ridiculous.
Edited by: "splender" 7th Nov 2017

Banned

farmlama45 m ago

As somebody who has been the victim of a sexual assault (my attacker was …As somebody who has been the victim of a sexual assault (my attacker was one of the measles 5% of this type of crime to end up with a conviction) I can say that the entire process of reporting this type of crime and following through is traumatic in itself and statistically it is a crime less likely to receive false reports. The media live to talk about the evil women who make up these lies to ruin the poor defenceless mans life, but reality is that only a tiny percent of reports are false, but a huge percent of attackers walk away because it is often a crime lacking in evidence and one word against another. And of course the attacker will deny it, who is going to admit to being a sexual predator? Just because he isn't convicted, doesn't mean he isn't guilty, it just means there wasn't enough solid evidence to secure conviction.this guys actions do not seem those of an innocent man though, they seem more the actions of someone who is scared that they have been caught and took the easy way out



cps.gov.uk/new…16/

Times have changed over the last two or three years & the conviction rate is far far higher than the 2005 rate you quote & reports are much higher too.

As for the man that killed himself, I do not think I could speculate.

Sorry for your ordeal.

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Kmore42 m ago

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/vawg_report_2016/Times have changed …http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/vawg_report_2016/Times have changed over the last two or three years & the conviction rate is far far higher than the 2005 rate you quote & reports are much higher too. As for the man that killed himself, I do not think I could speculate. Sorry for your ordeal.



Conviction rate is one aspect, do we even know what is the rate of innocent men found guilty wrongly and are still locked up, this aspect is what I quoted above in the 66 pages for the accused :-
The Impact of Being Wrongly Accused of Abuse in Occupations of Trust: Victims’ Voices, Carolyn Hoyle Naomi Ellen Speechley and Ros Burnett University of Oxford Centre for Criminology (2016)

As concluding remark from this University of Oxford Centre for Criminology in 2016 , " The authors of this study hope that it will provide a valuable corrective to the uncritical discourse that has dominated media,political and policy-making discourse over the past 20 years – the discourse which states that victims will, almost invariably, be telling the truth. It is worth here repeating the Metropolitan Police statement on Operation Midland, ‘our starting point with allegations of child sexual abuse is to believe the victim until we identify reasonable cause to believe otherwise.’ It will be recalled that this statement was made after it had emerged that the main source of the allegations was probably a fantasist."

Is there a fantasist, yes! Read here Operation Midland: Alleged fantasist 'Nick' could face charges over abuse claims
Edited by: "splender" 8th Nov 2017

R.I.P. dude
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