The problem with this and any other government

44
Found 29th Sep 2017
is not whether we agree with everything they do or stand for (left or right) but is that we bestow too much expectation on our governments - and as such we should reduce the power/influence that they have.
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Dave, we vote a government in to govern.

They ought to get on with the job - not shirk their responsibilities by trying to fob them off onto somebody else.

Ultimately, they've only got so much money to work with - it's not enough, but they each decide who's getting it and who's not getting it (they have their favs).

Tories take it from the poor and give it to the rich.
Labour take it from the rich and give it to the poor.
Lib/Dems take it from the ultra rich and give it to the ultra poor.
Nationalists take it from their own and only give it to their own.
Greens take it from everybody and give it to the worms.

None of them are fit to govern, but this is the crap we call democracy.
The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money on this that or the other .

Sounds great until you realise the "Government " doesn't have any money Its our taxes , business taxes etc -that's where the money comes from . Sorry Jeremy I've searched high and low and there is no "Magic Money Tree " ,even tried to find the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow -No joy .

Even better than that - Labour is "wargaming" how to deal with the financial crisis that they admit will inevitably follow the election of a Labour Government .

Oh and at the same time they will be selling government bonds to finance their ludicrously unaffordable plans - at what interest rate ? and who do they think would buy them ? No Jeremy the "Magic Money Tree" was more believeable

Sadly its the supposedly educated youth of today (some ) who are rapturously behind this nutter , anything for a selfie at Glastonbury and I presume a free PlayStation and I Phone for all under 25s and free Pizzas and Burgers ! At least that would cost less of the " Governments money " than the other "fully costed !!! " policies . Anyone with half a brain -please try to use it
Edited by: "rogparki" 29th Sep 2017
44 Comments
At this point in time do we actually have a functioning government?

Original Poster
freakstyler2 m ago

At this point in time do we actually have a functioning government?


Does any government function well. Has it ever?
All elected governments will never live up to the expectations their supporters have. The notion as a consequence we should reduce their powers is daft.
davewave4 m ago

Does any government function well. Has it ever?


Some have functioned better than others i'll grant you that - the key word here is functional. All we've seen is dysfunction over the past three-four months from the current regime, the upper echelons of which have spent most of that time sharpening their knives for conference season.
Someone has to run the country - and good or bad at least we have the comfort of knowing they were voted in democratically . If folks are really stupid enough to vote Labour in on their endless promises (without even giving a thought to where the money will come from ) then its our education system that's at fault for letting todays youth believe there really is a "Magic Money Tree "
Original Poster
RedLozzer1 h, 12 m ago

All elected governments will never live up to the expectations their …All elected governments will never live up to the expectations their supporters have. The notion as a consequence we should reduce their powers is daft.

That failure should be rewarded with trust is more daft.
davewave6 m ago

That failure should be rewarded with trust is more daft.


No, by reducing their powers you are settling for the status quo and making voting pointless. The whole point of democracy is you hope your vote makes a difference. Whether that hope is realised is an aspiration.
Original Poster
RedLozzer5 m ago

No, by reducing their powers you are settling for the status quo and …No, by reducing their powers you are settling for the status quo and making voting pointless. The whole point of democracy is you hope your vote makes a difference. Whether that hope is realised is an aspiration.

Not reducing democracy, reducing responsibility from the ever failing bunch of bureaucrats whether in local, national or international bodies.
And who should have the power? Corporations?, The point of democracy is in the name, the peoples voice. Its been a very long time since they were the voice of the people about time they rediscovered the point of the system they claim to represent but how can that be done when the populus has already sleep walked into giving them such levels of control as they have now.

And the funny thing is with Brexit we make ourselves weaker, the EU stood up for us, as members when the US wanted to clout us over steel exports, now we have no back up we are just a silly little island ripe for ripping off as we have no teeth and our citizens are at the mercy of the tories with soon to be no protection from Brussels when the scum get their way and destroy our human rights, which they will.
Edited by: "Segata-Sanshiro" 29th Sep 2017
davewave37 m ago

Not reducing democracy, reducing responsibility from the ever failing …Not reducing democracy, reducing responsibility from the ever failing bunch of bureaucrats whether in local, national or international bodies.


You are so wrong.
vote Dave for a brighter tomorrow
Original Poster
RedLozzer22 m ago

You are so wrong.

Interesting argument, care to expand on your expert opinion?
The real problem are all the cuts in the Civil service over the past few decades, being elected to pilot a country and come up with ideas is great, but if there is no experts there to enact your plans it's a waste of time.

Especially when politicians know if they like there is always a space in the geriatric ward... Sorry house of lords.
Dave, we vote a government in to govern.

They ought to get on with the job - not shirk their responsibilities by trying to fob them off onto somebody else.

Ultimately, they've only got so much money to work with - it's not enough, but they each decide who's getting it and who's not getting it (they have their favs).

Tories take it from the poor and give it to the rich.
Labour take it from the rich and give it to the poor.
Lib/Dems take it from the ultra rich and give it to the ultra poor.
Nationalists take it from their own and only give it to their own.
Greens take it from everybody and give it to the worms.

None of them are fit to govern, but this is the crap we call democracy.
davewave1 h, 4 m ago

Interesting argument, care to expand on your expert opinion?


My expert opinion is irelevant.

Once, we've diminished the powers of the people we democratically elect what happens then?
RedLozzer24 m ago

My expert opinion is irelevant.Once, we've diminished the powers of the …My expert opinion is irelevant.Once, we've diminished the powers of the people we democratically elect what happens then?



They privatise it, home office goes to highest (or 'preferred' ) bidder, same with foreign office, Chancer of the ex-checker - whole lot of them privatised, only thing politicians do - collect a wage for doing nowt; sorted - or no real change?
The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money on this that or the other .

Sounds great until you realise the "Government " doesn't have any money Its our taxes , business taxes etc -that's where the money comes from . Sorry Jeremy I've searched high and low and there is no "Magic Money Tree " ,even tried to find the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow -No joy .

Even better than that - Labour is "wargaming" how to deal with the financial crisis that they admit will inevitably follow the election of a Labour Government .

Oh and at the same time they will be selling government bonds to finance their ludicrously unaffordable plans - at what interest rate ? and who do they think would buy them ? No Jeremy the "Magic Money Tree" was more believeable

Sadly its the supposedly educated youth of today (some ) who are rapturously behind this nutter , anything for a selfie at Glastonbury and I presume a free PlayStation and I Phone for all under 25s and free Pizzas and Burgers ! At least that would cost less of the " Governments money " than the other "fully costed !!! " policies . Anyone with half a brain -please try to use it
Edited by: "rogparki" 29th Sep 2017
Politics seems much like religion but manages to achieve even less maybe!
There's the cult of Socialism, the cult of Capitalism and that cult Teresa May.
There's so much dogma with politics and they often can't even be bothered to hide their contempt for the other cults.
It seems to attract delusional egotists in the way that something like Scientology does.
Imagine a politician who is also a Scientologist!
That's scary.
rogparki5 h, 31 m ago

The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money …The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money on this that or the other .Sounds great until you realise the "Government " doesn't have any money Its our taxes , business taxes etc -that's where the money comes from . Sorry Jeremy I've searched high and low and there is no "Magic Money Tree " ,even tried to find the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow -No joy .Even better than that - Labour is "wargaming" how to deal with the financial crisis that they admit will inevitably follow the election of a Labour Government .Oh and at the same time they will be selling government bonds to finance their ludicrously unaffordable plans - at what interest rate ? and who do they think would buy them ? No Jeremy the "Magic Money Tree" was more believeable Sadly its the supposedly educated youth of today (some ) who are rapturously behind this nutter , anything for a selfie at Glastonbury and I presume a free PlayStation and I Phone for all under 25s and free Pizzas and Burgers ! At least that would cost less of the " Governments money " than the other "fully costed !!! " policies . Anyone with half a brain -please try to use it


Your gleeful use of the term magic money tree shows your ignorance, you have swallowed the tory clap trap, hook line and sinker and are begging for more. Where do you get your information from the BBC? The torygraph? The spectator? Or just the lowly daily mail? Do tell.

At the last election the surge in popularity of labour was twice that of the tories whos numbers were bolstered by the death of the monster raving UK independence party. Still they couldn't take office without bribing the flat earth society (did you vote DUP? So much for democracy). Please do remember that brexit only came about because the EU refused to back down on getting tough on dodgy investments, (new laws coming in 2019) it was all a threat by Cameron whom of course would be deeply affected (Panama papers anyone?) Ahh brexit if the rules for the referendum where like those the tories imposed on unions none of this rubbish would be happening, a whole nation marching off a cliff because 26% of the electorate are ignorant and gullible.
Edited by: "Segata-Sanshiro" 30th Sep 2017
RedLozzer13 h, 48 m ago

All elected governments will never live up to the expectations their …All elected governments will never live up to the expectations their supporters have. The notion as a consequence we should reduce their powers is daft.


Your comment is the best here, at time of any crisis, we need to rally behind any decent enough leader so as to achieve the known objectives with focused attention. They had 3 to 4 years of preparation time since the time Cameron had returned from a previous negotiation in Brussels. The lessons learnt from that negotiation is that the EU is mightily strong in getting the core EU strategy and fundamentals respected. We don't need Torys and the press to make internal misgivings. The total leadership needs to stay put, take it on the chin, to accept total roles and responsibilities.
Segata-Sanshiro4 h, 6 m ago

Your gleeful use of the term magic money tree shows your ignorance, you …Your gleeful use of the term magic money tree shows your ignorance, you have swallowed the tory clap trap, hook line and sinker and are begging for more. Where do you get your information from the BBC? The torygraph? The spectator? Or just the lowly daily mail? Do tell.At the last election the surge in popularity of labour was twice that of the tories whos numbers were bolstered by the death of the monster raving UK independence party. Still they couldn't take office without bribing the flat earth society (did you vote DUP? So much for democracy). Please do remember that brexit only came about because the EU refused to back down on getting tough on dodgy investments, (new laws coming in 2019) it was all a threat by Cameron whom of course would be deeply affected (Panama papers anyone?) Ahh brexit if the rules for the referendum where like those the tories imposed on unions none of this rubbish would be happening, a whole nation marching off a cliff because 26% of the electorate are ignorant and gullible.



Its fine that you can rattle off the Labour propaganda parrot fashion , and it sounds marvellous , its great oratory . Unfortunately by not using your education to question the rhetoric (maths in particular ) you fail to answer the burning question that inspired the phrase "Magic Money Tree " - Where is the money for all these numerous promises coming from?

For a supposedly well educated generation the inability to understand that 2+2 =4 (not 70 Billion) is worrying to say the least

And of course if you read the Telegraph or Mail you are somehow Tory biased , but if you believe and revel in Labours unaffordable promises then you are a normal balanced individual .
rogparki24 m ago

Its fine that you can rattle off the Labour propaganda parrot fashion , …Its fine that you can rattle off the Labour propaganda parrot fashion , and it sounds marvellous , its great oratory . Unfortunately by not using your education to question the rhetoric (maths in particular ) you fail to answer the burning question that inspired the phrase "Magic Money Tree " - Where is the money for all these numerous promises coming from?For a supposedly well educated generation the inability to understand that 2+2 =4 (not 70 Billion) is worrying to say the least And of course if you read the Telegraph or Mail you are somehow Tory biased , but if you believe and revel in Labours unaffordable promises then you are a normal balanced individual .



rogparki10 h, 1 m ago

The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money …The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money on this that or the other .Sounds great until you realise the "Government " doesn't have any money Its our taxes , business taxes etc -that's where the money comes from . Sorry Jeremy I've searched high and low and there is no "Magic Money Tree " ,even tried to find the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow -No joy .Even better than that - Labour is "wargaming" how to deal with the financial crisis that they admit will inevitably follow the election of a Labour Government .Oh and at the same time they will be selling government bonds to finance their ludicrously unaffordable plans - at what interest rate ? and who do they think would buy them ? No Jeremy the "Magic Money Tree" was more believeable Sadly its the supposedly educated youth of today (some ) who are rapturously behind this nutter , anything for a selfie at Glastonbury and I presume a free PlayStation and I Phone for all under 25s and free Pizzas and Burgers ! At least that would cost less of the " Governments money " than the other "fully costed !!! " policies . Anyone with half a brain -please try to use it



no magic money tree as a concept for all parties, no?
It would appear that the people chanting Oh Jeremy want to throw their money to Corbyn's magic money tree than to other money magic trees, as these latter magic money trees are magic to the few rather than the many, don't you get their motto that's a win theme ? Can't you see the wood for the other magic trees outside of Labour's own?
Edited by: "splender" 30th Sep 2017
rogparki2 h, 31 m ago

Its fine that you can rattle off the Labour propaganda parrot fashion , …Its fine that you can rattle off the Labour propaganda parrot fashion , and it sounds marvellous , its great oratory . Unfortunately by not using your education to question the rhetoric (maths in particular ) you fail to answer the burning question that inspired the phrase "Magic Money Tree " - Where is the money for all these numerous promises coming from?For a supposedly well educated generation the inability to understand that 2+2 =4 (not 70 Billion) is worrying to say the least And of course if you read the Telegraph or Mail you are somehow Tory biased , but if you believe and revel in Labours unaffordable promises then you are a normal balanced individual .


The labour manifesto was far better costed then the conservative one, you can post drivel all you like but its nothing more then regurgitation of soundbites from the media and yet the pot calls the kettle black. Your just projecting again.
rogparki12 h, 31 m ago

The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money …The most common "dumbthought" is the government should spend "its " money on this that or the other .Sounds great until you realise the "Government " doesn't have any money Its our taxes , business taxes etc -that's where the money comes from . Sorry Jeremy I've searched high and low and there is no "Magic Money Tree " ,even tried to find the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow -No joy .Even better than that - Labour is "wargaming" how to deal with the financial crisis that they admit will inevitably follow the election of a Labour Government .Oh and at the same time they will be selling government bonds to finance their ludicrously unaffordable plans - at what interest rate ? and who do they think would buy them ? No Jeremy the "Magic Money Tree" was more believeable Sadly its the supposedly educated youth of today (some ) who are rapturously behind this nutter , anything for a selfie at Glastonbury and I presume a free PlayStation and I Phone for all under 25s and free Pizzas and Burgers ! At least that would cost less of the " Governments money " than the other "fully costed !!! " policies . Anyone with half a brain -please try to use it



The great and ever-increasing burden being placed on the taxpayer is the result of weak governments failure to deal with tax-dodging multi-national companies.

There's no excuse for allowing powerful companies/corporations to get away with not paying their fair share.

They mercilessly hound the smaller businesses to pay taxes - even bankrupting them - yet they let the bigger companies away with robbing the country - it's cowardly and it's disgustingly shameful.

If these greedy Hellbound hoarding horrors were made to do the right thing and pay their taxes the whole country would be propelled into it's proper place of prosperity overnight.
tryn2help2 h, 22 m ago

The great and ever-increasing burden being placed on the taxpayer is the …The great and ever-increasing burden being placed on the taxpayer is the result of weak governments failure to deal with tax-dodging multi-national companies.There's no excuse for allowing powerful companies/corporations to get away with not paying their fair share.They mercilessly hound the smaller businesses to pay taxes - even bankrupting them - yet they let the bigger companies away with robbing the country - it's cowardly and it's disgustingly shameful. If these greedy Hellbound hoarding horrors were made to do the right thing and pay their taxes the whole country would be propelled into it's proper place of prosperity overnight.


And the selling off of nationalised things to company's who then get massive subsidies from the government as well such as the railways
Segata-Sanshiro7 m ago

And the selling off of nationalised things to company's who then get …And the selling off of nationalised things to company's who then get massive subsidies from the government as well such as the railways


I'll never forgive them for privatising our punctuation.
Saturn15 m ago

I'll never forgive them for privatising our punctuation.



The blaggards King Charles the First walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off.
splender7 h, 1 m ago

Your comment is the best here, at time of any crisis, we need to rally …Your comment is the best here, at time of any crisis, we need to rally behind any decent enough leader so as to achieve the known objectives with focused attention. They had 3 to 4 years of preparation time since the time Cameron had returned from a previous negotiation in Brussels. The lessons learnt from that negotiation is that the EU is mightily strong in getting the core EU strategy and fundamentals respected. We don't need Torys and the press to make internal misgivings. The total leadership needs to stay put, take it on the chin, to accept total roles and responsibilities.


I agree and the current negotiations are a total shambles due to our government. I am not a fan of the decision but the people have spoken and we must leave the EU in a timely, orderly fashion with a deal. The way things are going we might leave without one and revert to WTO tariffs which will be bad for our economy. Despite that we still have the likes of Johnson etc playing political games.....
Original Poster
Segata-Sanshiro2 h, 38 m ago

And the selling off of nationalised things to company's who then get …And the selling off of nationalised things to company's who then get massive subsidies from the government as well such as the railways


as if governments would make a better job...the magic pill called nationalisation
davewave1 h, 7 m ago

as if governments would make a better job...the magic pill called …as if governments would make a better job...the magic pill called nationalisation


They do if you bother looking
Original Poster
Segata-Sanshiro56 m ago

They do if you bother looking


If you bother looking its a very mixed picture.

Before privatisation, British Rail was criticised by some for being monolithic, costly and inefficient. Passenger numbers fell for years until private companies came in – usage is now at an all-time high.

channel4.com/new…ays
davewave38 m ago

If you bother looking its a very mixed picture.Before privatisation, …If you bother looking its a very mixed picture.Before privatisation, British Rail was criticised by some for being monolithic, costly and inefficient. Passenger numbers fell for years until private companies came in – usage is now at an all-time high. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-should-we-nationalise-the-railways


Same crap leveled at the nhs currently whom are being lined up for the chop. The system is much smaller now, trains are shorter too, coupled with increased population.

As stated bother looking elsewhere, strange you think state owned companies from foreign countries should be running our railways and getting money from our government to do so when they charge us much more for tickets then on their own networks in their own countries.

If state owned is always a failure in your eyes why are you in favour of this, care to elaborate?

Segata-Sanshiro36 m ago

Same crap leveled at the nhs currently whom are being lined up for the …Same crap leveled at the nhs currently whom are being lined up for the chop. The system is much smaller now, trains are shorter too, coupled with increased population.As stated bother looking elsewhere, strange you think state owned companies from foreign countries should be running our railways and getting money from our government to do so when they charge us much more for tickets then on their own networks in their own countries. If state owned is always a failure in your eyes why are you in favour of this, care to elaborate?



I think state owned gold reserves weren't a bad idea - but then Gordon Brown sold them off (and even gave notice of our intention to give the market time to get them cheap !) . Even Gordon Brown knew that the age old Labour promises were unaffordable by our economy - so why persist with the promises ? As every sane household knows your outgoings have to be matched by income + borrowing . Its a no brainer - basic maths surely ! Yet Labour promise more and more , £Billions more any sane person would say "where is the money coming from ? Yet our supposedly educated youth (educated by my taxes ) seem to have lost their grasp of maths in their infatuation for Corbyn's U Tube propaganda . In any other country it would be banned as a brainwashing sect .

Still we all have a vote - its a democracy (though I doubt the fawning mindless youth know what that means ) we get , a government what we deserve .

History proves Labour spend all the money ( Famously -"There's no money left" ) then even after spending money we haven't got (as a nation ) they are voted out as being incompetent and the Tories are vilified for being prudent to get the nations finances back on track - and we educate our youth !? they want to go back to the Old Labour ways - beats me (and I take some beating ! ).

Just look at your family and close friends - If they spend more than they earn (including interest payments ) they are in trouble . Our Nation is one big family -the same rules apply , when will our ,presumably, educated youth wake up to that fact , stop fawning to Labours false hopes and ditch the "politics of envy " ?
Original Poster
Segata-Sanshiro38 m ago

Same crap leveled at the nhs currently whom are being lined up for the …Same crap leveled at the nhs currently whom are being lined up for the chop. The system is much smaller now, trains are shorter too, coupled with increased population.As stated bother looking elsewhere, strange you think state owned companies from foreign countries should be running our railways and getting money from our government to do so when they charge us much more for tickets then on their own networks in their own countries. If state owned is always a failure in your eyes why are you in favour of this, care to elaborate?

Yes
No.
sorry

wrong thread as well
tryn2help8 h, 52 m ago

The great and ever-increasing burden being placed on the taxpayer is the …The great and ever-increasing burden being placed on the taxpayer is the result of weak governments failure to deal with tax-dodging multi-national companies.There's no excuse for allowing powerful companies/corporations to get away with not paying their fair share.They mercilessly hound the smaller businesses to pay taxes - even bankrupting them - yet they let the bigger companies away with robbing the country - it's cowardly and it's disgustingly shameful. If these greedy Hellbound hoarding horrors were made to do the right thing and pay their taxes the whole country would be propelled into it's proper place of prosperity overnight.


No

but it would be a start !


Huge opposition to the nearly approved housing development here
increasing the size of the town 20%

only just come out that the whole thing is registered abroad
the plan on paying no tax on it !
Edited by: "Wongy110" 30th Sep 2017
Original Poster
Destard5 h, 12 m ago

Well crack on then Dave


Thanks.
davewave7 h, 36 m ago

Thanks.


You're welcome Dave.
So, are you not going to elaborate on the question put to you about if state owned is always a failure in your eyes, why are you in favor of this?
Destard1 h, 46 m ago

You're welcome Dave.So, are you not going to elaborate on the question put …You're welcome Dave.So, are you not going to elaborate on the question put to you about if state owned is always a failure in your eyes, why are you in favor of this?


You need to give him a few days to think about how to answer, thinking about foreign state owned rail services running our rail companies has caused his brain to become dangerously overheated.
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