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    The real reason Nigel Farage hates Douglas Carswell

    Amusing piece by Hugo Rifkind in the Spectator:

    ...Which is where we come back to the knighthood. It is also where we come back to their ongoing resentment about not being the official Leave campaign, even though it was almost a year ago, for God’s sake, and they won anyway. And it is also where we should bring in Carswell’s first offence against the Ukip hierarchy, which came about two years ago when he declined the ‘Short money’ that opposition parties get to finance their operations, thereby doing Farage out of the sort of swanky Westminster base that all the other parties enjoy. Essentially, the problem with Carswell is that he truly believes all the anti-establishment stuff. He really does think that Ukip should be a party apart. Whereas the rest of them don’t. They only pretend.

    You can see it with Farage in America. There he is, this man who failed seven times to even become an MP, going on talk shows and basking in the vague presumption over there that he’s probably, like, the Limey prime minister or something. At Trump’s elbow, he gets to consider himself a statesman, a potential ambassador. Likewise Banks, a man who was once so piqued when William Hague didn’t remember his name that he immediately gave Ukip a million quid. These people do not want to smash the establishment. They want to be the establishment. This is why they keep fighting the referendum even though the referendum is won, because they bristle with resentment at their lack of recognition, the lack of a ticker-tape parade for having won it. This is also, I suppose, why Paul Nuttall wears tweed, even though it makes him look like a skinhead Rupert Bear...


    spectator.co.uk/201…ll/

    58 Comments

    oh, did anyone ask why?

    Rom

    @Seaneco he also mentioned the study by John Curtice on Labour Brexit … @Seaneco he also mentioned the study by John Curtice on Labour Brexit voters that I couldn't find that time: Labour voters in the North of England and the Midlands were less likely to vote for Remain than their counterparts elsewhere in the UK. However, it is still the case that a clear majority of Labour voters across these two regions (58%) voted to Remain.



    So what you're saying is nationally a clear majority of Labour voters voted remain but the labour leader forced the MPs they elected to vote in favor of Brexit. A position neither he nor his MPs and those who elected them support. Bizarre.

    Edited by: "Fred.Smith" 7th Mar

    Original Poster

    Fred.Smith

    So what you're saying is nationally a clear majority of Labour voters … So what you're saying is nationally a clear majority of Labour voters voted remain but the labour leader forced the MPs they elected to vote in favor of Brexit. A position neither he nor his MPs and those who elected them supported. Bizarre.



    Do you mean that's what you're saying?

    And you two... I'm bored of my own thread already... was more to show Sean because I couldn't find it the other day.

    Rom

    Do you mean that's what you're saying? And you two... I'm bored of my own … Do you mean that's what you're saying? And you two... I'm bored of my own thread already... was more to show Sean because I couldn't find it the other day.


    yeah, pretty boring like you say.

    yawnnnnnnnnnn

    Rom

    Do you mean that's what you're saying? And you two... I'm bored of my own … Do you mean that's what you're saying? And you two... I'm bored of my own thread already... was more to show Sean because I couldn't find it the other day.



    So it was a Shaun bating thread. Norty norty.

    http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/no-no-no-very-bad-man-Babu-Bhatt-seinfeld-gifs-finger-wag.gif

    Original Poster

    Fred.Smith

    So it was a Shaun bating thread. Norty norty.



    No it wasn't, like the gif though.

    Like I said, I couldn't find the study that I mentioned in the other thread, Shaun asked for it.
    And like Jerry Seinfeld, I started out with good intentions.

    I have a character flaw where I like to win arguments, you must have noticed, I'm about 10-0 up on you (_;)

    Rom

    No it wasn't, like the gif though.Like I said, I couldn't find the study … No it wasn't, like the gif though.Like I said, I couldn't find the study that I mentioned in the other thread, Shaun asked for it. And like Jerry Seinfeld, I started out with good intentions.I have a character flaw where I like to win arguments, you must have noticed, I'm about 10-0 up on you (_;)



    LOL, you can dream. Heard of PM's?

    Original Poster

    Fred.Smith

    LOL, you can dream. Heard of PM's?


    That's weird. Shasnir just asked the same question then deleted it, now you ask?

    Rom

    That's weird. Shasnir just asked the same question then deleted it, now … That's weird. Shasnir just asked the same question then deleted it, now you ask?



    Heard of coincidence?

    The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, It was someone else lol.

    http://facepalm.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0906/godzilla-facepalm-godzilla-facepalm-face-palm-epic-fail-demotivational-poster-1245384435.jpg

    I'm a local resident in his Clacton constituency. And have to admit he commited political suicide joining ukip.. Now known as a tory turncoat. Must admit the circus that surrounded him leaving the Tories really livened up our town.

    FATBOY78

    I'm a local resident in his Clacton constituency. And have to admit he … I'm a local resident in his Clacton constituency. And have to admit he commited political suicide joining ukip.. Now known as a tory turncoat. Must admit the circus that surrounded him leaving the Tories really livened up our town.



    You'll be hard pushed to find a kipper official that's not a Tory turncoat at some level - they're all tainted.

    Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP?

    Despite his posts resembling that of an avid UKIP supporter he has (strangely) claimed that he believes they are a pointless party and a waste of a vote.

    For someone who claims to not like the establishment, be Anti-EU, and totally opposed to migration (including refugees) I can see why you got confused.

    But please remember this is someone's who views change like the wind. Despite all the above he claimed he voted for the pro establishment and pro status quo Ed Miliband in the last General Election. However, 5 years ago there are posts by him claiming Ed isn't the right guy to lead Labour forward.

    You'd think current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn who has decades of history as an Anti-EU rebel (forced to appease his party during the referendum) and recently attempted to impose a three line whip so all his MPs would agree to Brexit would be more up his street. Also, Corbyn who can be considered very much Mr anti-establishment himself due to his views on corporation tax, workers rights and nationalization.

    But no. Corbyn is apparently awful in Shaune's eyes despite being the closest thing to a pro working class and Anti-EU leader this country has seen in decades.
    Probably ever.

    He'd rather vote for Ed Miliband then blame Labour's and subsequently the countries problems on Jeremy Corbyn and decide an unelected Tory PM who is tearing the NHS apart - and who by 2020 will have increased national debt to more than what any Labour government has done combined - is the best person to benefit a working class man from Greater Manchester.

    Confused at the amount of contradictions? I definitely am.


    Edited by: "dtovey89" 7th Mar

    I have no idea what the rest of the Rom/Shaun thing is all about but I'm so glad I clicked on the thread for this alone:

    " This is also, I suppose, why Paul Nuttall wears tweed, even though it makes him look like a skinhead Rupert Bear..."
    Fabulous.

    dtovey89

    Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP? Despite his posts … Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP? Despite his posts resembling that of an avid UKIP supporter he has (strangely) claimed that he believes they are a pointless party and a waste of a vote. For someone who claims to not like the establishment, be Anti-EU, and totally opposed to migration (including refugees) I can see why you got confused. But please remember this is someone's who views change like the wind. Despite all the above he claimed he voted for the pro establishment and pro status quo Ed Miliband in the last General Election. However, 5 years ago there are posts by him claiming Ed isn't the right guy to lead Labour forward. You'd think current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn who has decades of history as an Anti-EU rebel (forced to appease his party during the referendum) and recently attempted to impose a three line whip so all his MPs would agree to Brexit would be more up his street. Also, Corbyn who can be considered very much Mr anti-establishment himself due to his views on corporation tax, workers rights and nationalization. But no. Corbyn is apparently awful in Shaune's eyes despite being the closest thing to a pro working class and Anti-EU leader this country has seen in decades. Probably ever. He'd rather vote for Ed Miliband then blame Labour's and subsequently the countries problems on Jeremy Corbyn and decide an unelected Tory PM who is tearing the NHS apart - and who by 2020 will have increased national debt to more than what any Labour government has done combined - is the best person to benefit a working class man from Greater Manchester. Confused at the amount of contradictions? I definitely am.



    Lol, My number one troll ;), My views didn't change over night, You totally misinterpret virtually everything I state to further your own agenda against me. Be it now or over 5 years ago "BEFORE BREXIT", You've done your research and because I voted for the party I voted for being a traditional Labour voter I'm an hypocrite. I didn't vote Conservative on there promise of a referendum because I didn't believe in there promises as explained loads of times before but that won't sink in with you will it?.

    Being a traditional Labour voter it would be very difficult to ever vote Conservative, You understand that?.

    Yes Ed was a weak leader evidently, That's why he's no longer the leader but I voted albeit reluctantly for Labour as an whole because I thought they were still just about the best party to lead the UK.

    Evidently Corbyn is a far bigger hypocrite than me as you've suggested yourself, Going against his own agenda to suite his party. That tells you all you need to know really.

    Brexit has finished Labour off has a party, I couldn't vote for a party that is in such a mess, Labour have lost a voter.

    I would still find it difficult to vote Conservative, But they're probably the better of the two evils now. Thatcher MK2 seems to be doing ok at the moment.








    Original Poster

    shauneco

    The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, … The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, It was someone else lol.



    shauneco

    A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the … A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the referendum labour lost alot of its voters.



    Me: "That's not right Shaun, most labour voters voted remain, even in the north."

    shauneco

    Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners … Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners typically voted for Brexit.Majority of people I know who voted leave are Labour voters, I may possibly be slightly wrong to assume but I think if you had credible stats it'd suggest I'm correct.



    The above is me giving you the statistics. Im not looking for an apology but I think an OK I was wrong is a bit more appropriate than a misplaced facepalm gif and trying to make out I'd missed the point somehow?

    Your second (incorrect) comment is the top comment in that thread. Most of the right wing gang got their likes in, celebrating ignorance as usual.


    The thread:hotukdeals.com/mis…033
    Edited by: "Rom" 8th Mar

    Original Poster

    pickledtink

    I have no idea what the rest of the Rom/Shaun thing is all about but I'm … I have no idea what the rest of the Rom/Shaun thing is all about but I'm so glad I clicked on the thread for this alone:" This is also, I suppose, why Paul Nuttall wears tweed, even though it makes him look like a skinhead Rupert Bear..."Fabulous.


    That made me snigger too

    shauneco

    Lol, My number one troll ;), My views didn't change over night, You … Lol, My number one troll ;), My views didn't change over night, You totally misinterpret virtually everything I state to further your own agenda against me. Be it now or over 5 years ago "BEFORE BREXIT", You've done your research and because I voted for the party I voted for being a traditional Labour voter I'm an hypocrite. I didn't vote Conservative on there promise of a referendum because I didn't believe in there promises as explained loads of times before but that won't sink in with you will it?. Being a traditional Labour voter it would be very difficult to ever vote Conservative, You understand that?.Yes Ed was a weak leader evidently, That's why he's no longer the leader but I voted albeit reluctantly for Labour as an whole because I thought they were still just about the best party to lead the UK.Evidently Corbyn is a far bigger hypocrite than me as you've suggested yourself, Going against his own agenda to suite his party. That tells you all you need to know really.Brexit has finished Labour off has a party, I couldn't vote for a party that is in such a mess, Labour have lost a voter.I would still find it difficult to vote Conservative, But they're probably the better of the two evils now. Thatcher MK2 seems to be doing ok at the moment.



    Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily Mail.

    Corbyn appeased his party to stem the flow of dissent. It was a mistake and if he was allowed and given the support and funding to offer an alternative anti-eu approach to UKIP then he would have won a lot of northern disenfranchised voters.

    Instead the Blairitie wing of his party attempted to throw him out and when that didn't work they put him in an leadership race against Owen "more Blairite than Blair" Smith. The man who was once a big dog at the evil corporation Pfizer. A man who despite claims to be Labour would privitase the NHS in an instant.

    Imagine if Corbyn wasn't smeared then ghosted by the Media? The very same Media who have certain Labour MPs in their back pockets and actively fund them.

    Imagine if the amount of damage he is doing to Theresa May in PMQs was actually given coverage? Imagine if the media focused on his points rather than what he is wearing? Imagine if the media focused on his message rather than editing photos so it looks like he is dancing at the cenopath.

    We have a very decent opposition to the current government in Corbyn but the agenda against him is almost beyond belief. If only you could see through it then maybe you could associate with a true champion of the working class.

    Not sure how you consider yourself a traditional Labour voter for years. I suppose you mean you voted for Blair onwards so don't really actually want much change? You know the neo liberal New Labour guy... not the traditional left wing Labour... the stuff Corbyn believes in.

    I don't think you voted for Kinnock and before that the 80s was a lot more radical than what Corbyn is doing... so if you don't like Corbyn now I doubt you liked Foot et al back then.

    Over the years on here you've painted numerous sides to your political views and I cannot see the link between them. It's almost like you just follow the crowd. Or dare I say what the media tells the crowd to follow.

    What is it?

    Traditions Labour voter?
    Or
    Voted New Labour and then Miliband?

    Anti-EU, anti-migrants, anti-refugees
    Or
    Don't believe in UKIP's message

    5 years ago didn't believe in Miliband
    Or
    Voted for Mililand in general election

    Working class northerner who votes Labour
    Or
    Happy with how Theresa May is doing

    You cannot be a combination of each individual point above let alone a mixture of all of them. Like I said... You change like the wind.


    Edited by: "dtovey89" 8th Mar

    dtovey89

    Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP? Despite his posts … Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP? Despite his posts resembling that of an avid UKIP supporter he has (strangely) claimed that he believes they are a pointless party and a waste of a vote. For someone who claims to not like the establishment, be Anti-EU, and totally opposed to migration (including refugees) I can see why you got confused. But please remember this is someone's who views change like the wind. Despite all the above he claimed he voted for the pro establishment and pro status quo Ed Miliband in the last General Election. However, 5 years ago there are posts by him claiming Ed isn't the right guy to lead Labour forward. You'd think current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn who has decades of history as an Anti-EU rebel (forced to appease his party during the referendum) and recently attempted to impose a three line whip so all his MPs would agree to Brexit would be more up his street. Also, Corbyn who can be considered very much Mr anti-establishment himself due to his views on corporation tax, workers rights and nationalization. But no. Corbyn is apparently awful in Shaune's eyes despite being the closest thing to a pro working class and Anti-EU leader this country has seen in decades. Probably ever. He'd rather vote for Ed Miliband then blame Labour's and subsequently the countries problems on Jeremy Corbyn and decide an unelected Tory PM who is tearing the NHS apart - and who by 2020 will have increased national debt to more than what any Labour government has done combined - is the best person to benefit a working class man from Greater Manchester. Confused at the amount of contradictions? I definitely am.



    I'd have thought with your views on both banning Muslim women from wearing the full face veil and on uncontrolled immigration UKIP would have been more your cuppa cha.

    Most Labour supporters I know voted for Ed Miliband but wouldn't give Corbyn the time of day because although Ed shifted Labour from left of centre towards far left he was not full on '70s throwback Marxist/Trotskyist like his successor and his band of vile cronies. Of course that isn't the only reason traditional Labour supporters will never vote for Corbyn.

    dtovey89

    Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily … Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily Mail. Corbyn appeased his party to stem the flow of dissent. It was a mistake and if he was allowed and given the support and funding to offer an alternative anti-eu approach to UKIP then he would have won a lot of northern disenfranchised voters. Instead the Blairities wing of his party attempted to throw him out and when that didn't work they put him in an leadership race against Owen "more Blairite than Blair" Smith. Imagine if Corbyn wasn't smeared then ghosted by the Media? The Media who have certain Labour MPs in their back pockets? Imagine if the amount of damage he is doing to Theresa May in PMQs was actually given coverage in the media? We have a very decent opposition to the current government in Corbyn but the agenda against him is almost beyond belief. If you could see through it then maybe you could associate with a true champion of the working class. Not sure how you consider yourself a traditional Labour voter for years. I suppose you mean you voted for Blair onwards so don't really actually want much change? I don't think you voted for Kinnock and before that the 80s was a lot more radical than what Corbyn is doing... Like I said over the years you've painted two sides two or more sides to your political views and I cannot see the link between them. It's almost like you just follow the crowd. Or dare I say what the media tells the crowd to follow.



    Yeah the media smeared Corbyn by reporting the things he actually said and in most cases on video. FFS man hasn't the Shami Chakrabarti fiasco opened your eyes to this vile charlatan.

    shauneco

    The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, … The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, It was someone else lol.

    shauneco

    A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the … A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the referendum labour lost alot of its voters.

    shauneco

    Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners … Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners typically voted for Brexit.Majority of people I know who voted leave are Labour voters, I may possibly be slightly wrong to assume but I think if you had credible stats it'd suggest I'm correct.



    Fair enough, I think it's probably very inaccurate though.

    Nowhere on the referendum paper did it ask who we voted for in the GE or ask for our details, They have obviously asked the wrong people and have no way of knowing.


    "Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners typically voted for Brexit.

    Majority of people I know who voted leave are Labour voters, I may possibly be slightly wrong to assume but I think if you had credible stats it'd suggest I'm correct
    ."


    Most Northerners typically do or did vote Labour, and most Northerners did vote to leave, They are facts.




    Edited by: "shauneco" 8th Mar

    Original Poster

    shauneco

    The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, … The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, It was someone else lol.

    shauneco

    A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the … A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the referendum labour lost alot of its voters.

    shauneco

    Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners … Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners typically voted for Brexit.Majority of people I know who voted leave are Labour voters, I may possibly be slightly wrong to assume but I think if you had credible stats it'd suggest I'm correct.



    He's highly respected, that piece he wrote is really interesting, imo.


    Edit: Try reading the piece!
    Edited by: "Rom" 8th Mar

    dtovey89

    Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily … Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily Mail. Corbyn appeased his party to stem the flow of dissent. It was a mistake and if he was allowed and given the support and funding to offer an alternative anti-eu approach to UKIP then he would have won a lot of northern disenfranchised voters. Instead the Blairitie wing of his party attempted to throw him out and when that didn't work they put him in an leadership race against Owen "more Blairite than Blair" Smith. The man who was once a big dog at the evil corporation Pfizer. A man who despite claims to be Labour would privitase the NHS in an instant. Imagine if Corbyn wasn't smeared then ghosted by the Media? The very same Media who have certain Labour MPs in their back pockets and actively fund them.Imagine if the amount of damage he is doing to Theresa May in PMQs was actually given coverage? Imagine if the media focused on his points rather than what he is wearing? Imagine if the media focused on his message rather than editing photos so it looks like he is dancing at the cenopath. We have a very decent opposition to the current government in Corbyn but the agenda against him is almost beyond belief. If only you could see through it then maybe you could associate with a true champion of the working class. Not sure how you consider yourself a traditional Labour voter for years. I suppose you mean you voted for Blair onwards so don't really actually want much change? You know the neo liberal New Labour guy... not the traditional left wing Labour... the stuff Corbyn believes in. I don't think you voted for Kinnock and before that the 80s was a lot more radical than what Corbyn is doing... so if you don't like Corbyn now I doubt you liked Foot et al back then.Over the years on here you've painted numerous sides to your political views and I cannot see the link between them. It's almost like you just follow the crowd. Or dare I say what the media tells the crowd to follow. What is it? Traditions Labour voter? OrVoted New Labour and then Miliband? Anti-EU, anti-migrants, anti-refugeesOrDon't believe in UKIP's message5 years ago didn't believe in MilibandOrVoted for Mililand in general election Working class northerner who votes Labour OrHappy with how Theresa May is doingYou cannot be a combination of each individual point above let alone a mixture of all of them. Like I said... You change like the wind.



    Truth be told it's somewhere in between, that is the problem, Not just for me but millions of voters.

    Original Poster

    shauneco

    The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, … The funny thing about this thread is it wasn't me who asked for a link, It was someone else lol.

    shauneco

    A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the … A majority of leave voters are/were labour voters. Leading up to the referendum labour lost alot of its voters.

    shauneco

    Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners … Majority of Northerners traditionally vote Labour, Most Northerners typically voted for Brexit.Majority of people I know who voted leave are Labour voters, I may possibly be slightly wrong to assume but I think if you had credible stats it'd suggest I'm correct.



    "To ascertain how individual Labour voters (as opposed to all voters in Labour-held constituencies) behaved in the referendum we have to look to the evidence of surveys that have asked voters how they voted. The largest survey of how people voted in the referendum is an internet panel run by the academic British Election Study (BES). It interviewed just over 30,000 people after the referendum, and thus is big enough not only to look at how Labour voters behaved across the country as a whole, but also in particular parts, such as in the North of England or in Labour-held seats.

    First up, according to this survey across Britain as a whole, 63% of those who voted Labour in 2015 and who cast a ballot in the EU referendum last June voted to Remain. This estimate is not dissimilar to that of other surveys. NatCen’s internet panel also put the figure at 63% when it asked people last September how they had voted, while YouGov’s on the day poll put the figure at 65% and Lord Ashcroft’s similar exercise reckoned it was just a little higher at 70%. So there is no doubt that across Britain as a whole, most Labour voters – probably nearly two in three – voted to Remain.

    But is this true everywhere? After all, according to Hanretty’s estimates, in Labour-held seats in London and the South of England on average 61% voted for Remain, whereas in the North of England and the Midlands only 42% did so. Perhaps in the more ‘traditional’ Labour territory in the North of England and the Midlands, most Labour voters did in fact back Leave?

    Not so, according to the BES data. True, as the table shows, Labour voters in the North of England and the Midlands were less likely to vote for Remain than their counterparts elsewhere in the UK. However, it is still the case that a clear majority of Labour voters across these two regions (58%) voted to Remain."

    Cannot believe you think your circle of friends is better evidence than that. And you think HEAWD is conceited?

    Rom

    He's highly respected, that piece he wrote is really interesting, imo. … He's highly respected, that piece he wrote is really interesting, imo. Edit: Try reading the piece!



    I've read it, I don't see how he gets them figure really, They have obviously got it wrong just like they got the GE and referendum predictions wrong.

    Even so majority of Northerners voted leave and a majority are traditional Labour voters they are facts based on results, Not polls.

    Rom

    "To ascertain how individual Labour voters (as opposed to all voters in … "To ascertain how individual Labour voters (as opposed to all voters in Labour-held constituencies) behaved in the referendum we have to look to the evidence of surveys that have asked voters how they voted. The largest survey of how people voted in the referendum is an internet panel run by the academic British Election Study (BES). It interviewed just over 30,000 people after the referendum, and thus is big enough not only to look at how Labour voters behaved across the country as a whole, but also in particular parts, such as in the North of England or in Labour-held seats.First up, according to this survey across Britain as a whole, 63% of those who voted Labour in 2015 and who cast a ballot in the EU referendum last June voted to Remain. This estimate is not dissimilar to that of other surveys. NatCen’s internet panel also put the figure at 63% when it asked people last September how they had voted, while YouGov’s on the day poll put the figure at 65% and Lord Ashcroft’s similar exercise reckoned it was just a little higher at 70%. So there is no doubt that across Britain as a whole, most Labour voters – probably nearly two in three – voted to Remain.But is this true everywhere? After all, according to Hanretty’s estimates, in Labour-held seats in London and the South of England on average 61% voted for Remain, whereas in the North of England and the Midlands only 42% did so. Perhaps in the more ‘traditional’ Labour territory in the North of England and the Midlands, most Labour voters did in fact back Leave?Not so, according to the BES data. True, as the table shows, Labour voters in the North of England and the Midlands were less likely to vote for Remain than their counterparts elsewhere in the UK. However, it is still the case that a clear majority of Labour voters across these two regions (58%) voted to Remain."Cannot believe you think your circle of friends is better evidence than that. And you think HEAWD is conceited?


    I'd like to know who those 30,000 people are.

    Original Poster

    Well, what can I say.

    Rom

    Well, what can I say.



    So this claim is based on a poll of 30,000 people - remind me of how accurate polls were at predicting a win for leave?

    I can see where the confusion lies -- from your links -- Most Labour constituencies voted leave but most Labour voters in those constituencies voted remain.

    Fred.Smith

    I'd have thought with your views on both banning Muslim women from … I'd have thought with your views on both banning Muslim women from wearing the full face veil and on uncontrolled immigration UKIP would have been more your cuppa cha.Most Labour supporters I know voted for Ed Miliband but wouldn't give Corbyn the time of day because although Ed shifted Labour from left of centre towards far left he was not full on '70s throwback Marxist/Trotskyist like his successor and his band of vile cronies. Of course that isn't the only reason traditional Labour supporters will never vote for Corbyn.



    Right on cue Fred Smith appears and does shauneco's talking for him.

    Yeah because I sound so much more like a UKIP voter than shauneco...

    Ill ignore that one as it's absurd. Secondly the fact that you think Ed shifted Labour from Centre left to far left is revealing. In reality Ed used the trade unions to win the Labourship election race against Brother David (earning the name Red Ed) but then happily screwed them once he was in power.

    It makes sense to see why you would define him as that because it suits your anti Corbyn agenda. It allows you to say Labour were far left under Ed Miliband but are trying to go one step further under Corbyn. And then you can start throwing around your favourite Trotskyist phrase.

    Miliband was only ever a slight shift from Blair that it was barely noticeable. It was still centre New Labour that failed to prevent an alternative solution to a Conservative Party propped up by the Lib Dems. In fact it was so out of touch it allowed a Lib Dem-Tory coalition to be replaced by a full on majority Tory government.

    Now let's talk about shauneco's view as a "traditional northern working class Labour voter" that "Theresa May isn't doing that bad". Since the 2010 coalition and more importantly the 2015 General Election the NHS and other institutions are in crisis, austerity has been proven to be a sham, and the National debt is going to be higher than ever before. In fact this Conservative government will have borrowed more by 2020 than any other Labour government combined.
    Source: taxresearch.org.uk/Blo…-1/

    So it's not hard to see why someone would find flaws in shauneco's comment about being Labour but being happy with an unelected Tory PM. The two do not go hand in hand. Either he was a UKIP supporter pre referendum and has now believed the lies that May is the right person to carry us forward with Brexit. Or he is a floating voter. A traditional Labour voter especially one from the North would never support a Tory government tearing this country apart.

    Back to Corbyn. Corbyn isn't even far left. He's an advocate of socialism within a capitalist democracy. If you view believe that people should be free to earn what they deserve but to keep these fat cat corporates in check to prevent them screwing the standard worker to achieve that then you are a socialist.
    If you believe that certain vital institutions should transcend profit and not be used to meet targets or sold off to the highest bidder then you are a socialist.

    Corbyn's view of socialism isn't an issue. It allows people to achieve but prevents full on exploitation. It's also protects key British assets.

    The fact you and Shauneco claim to be traditional Labour voters is laughable. Corbyn is trying to create actual change but this neo liberal old guard have done their upmost to prevent him doing so. If he was allowed to carry out this change then he'd target these common malpractices in British Politics and these self serving MPs in both parties would be targeted.

    Like I said. Keep believing those tabloid rags Shauneco. But stop pretending that your a traditional left wing Labour voter. You are far from it despite your background.
    Edited by: "dtovey89" 8th Mar

    This place has some right weirdos.

    Original Poster

    Fred.Smith

    Most Labour constituencies voted leave but most Labour voters in those … Most Labour constituencies voted leave but most Labour voters in those constituencies voted remain.


    Yes, that's precisely what I've been saying from the beginning. Confusion not mine!

    dtovey89

    Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP? Despite his posts … Are you sure Shauneco really asked for this thread OP? Despite his posts resembling that of an avid UKIP supporter he has (strangely) claimed that he believes they are a pointless party and a waste of a vote. For someone who claims to not like the establishment, be Anti-EU, and totally opposed to migration (including refugees) I can see why you got confused. But please remember this is someone's who views change like the wind. Despite all the above he claimed he voted for the pro establishment and pro status quo Ed Miliband in the last General Election. However, 5 years ago there are posts by him claiming Ed isn't the right guy to lead Labour forward. You'd think current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn who has decades of history as an Anti-EU rebel (forced to appease his party during the referendum) and recently attempted to impose a three line whip so all his MPs would agree to Brexit would be more up his street. Also, Corbyn who can be considered very much Mr anti-establishment himself due to his views on corporation tax, workers rights and nationalization. But no. Corbyn is apparently awful in Shaune's eyes despite being the closest thing to a pro working class and Anti-EU leader this country has seen in decades. Probably ever. He'd rather vote for Ed Miliband then blame Labour's and subsequently the countries problems on Jeremy Corbyn and decide an unelected Tory PM who is tearing the NHS apart - and who by 2020 will have increased national debt to more than what any Labour government has done combined - is the best person to benefit a working class man from Greater Manchester. Confused at the amount of contradictions? I definitely am.



    dtovey89

    Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily … Lol @ you falling for the bait from papers such as The Sun and The Daily Mail. Corbyn appeased his party to stem the flow of dissent. It was a mistake and if he was allowed and given the support and funding to offer an alternative anti-eu approach to UKIP then he would have won a lot of northern disenfranchised voters. Instead the Blairitie wing of his party attempted to throw him out and when that didn't work they put him in an leadership race against Owen "more Blairite than Blair" Smith. The man who was once a big dog at the evil corporation Pfizer. A man who despite claims to be Labour would privitase the NHS in an instant. Imagine if Corbyn wasn't smeared then ghosted by the Media? The very same Media who have certain Labour MPs in their back pockets and actively fund them.Imagine if the amount of damage he is doing to Theresa May in PMQs was actually given coverage? Imagine if the media focused on his points rather than what he is wearing? Imagine if the media focused on his message rather than editing photos so it looks like he is dancing at the cenopath. We have a very decent opposition to the current government in Corbyn but the agenda against him is almost beyond belief. If only you could see through it then maybe you could associate with a true champion of the working class. Not sure how you consider yourself a traditional Labour voter for years. I suppose you mean you voted for Blair onwards so don't really actually want much change? You know the neo liberal New Labour guy... not the traditional left wing Labour... the stuff Corbyn believes in. I don't think you voted for Kinnock and before that the 80s was a lot more radical than what Corbyn is doing... so if you don't like Corbyn now I doubt you liked Foot et al back then.Over the years on here you've painted numerous sides to your political views and I cannot see the link between them. It's almost like you just follow the crowd. Or dare I say what the media tells the crowd to follow. What is it? Traditions Labour voter? OrVoted New Labour and then Miliband? Anti-EU, anti-migrants, anti-refugeesOrDon't believe in UKIP's message5 years ago didn't believe in MilibandOrVoted for Mililand in general election Working class northerner who votes Labour OrHappy with how Theresa May is doingYou cannot be a combination of each individual point above let alone a mixture of all of them. Like I said... You change like the wind.



    dtovey89

    Right on cue Fred Smith appears and does shauneco's talking for him. Yeah … Right on cue Fred Smith appears and does shauneco's talking for him. Yeah because I sound so much more like a UKIP voter than shauneco...Ill ignore that one as it's absurd. Secondly the fact that you think Ed shifted Labour from Centre left to far left is revealing. In reality Ed used the trade unions to win the Labourship election race against Brother David (earning the name Red Ed) but then happily screwed them once he was in power. It makes sense to see why you would define him as that because it suits your anti Corbyn agenda. It allows you to say Labour were far left under Ed Miliband but are trying to go one step further under Corbyn. And then you can start throwing around your favourite Trotskyist phrase. Miliband was only ever a slight shift from Blair that it was barely noticeable. It was still centre New Labour that failed to prevent an alternative solution to a Conservative Party propped up by the Lib Dems. In fact it was so out of touch it allowed a Lib Dem-Tory coalition to be replaced by a full on majority Tory government. Now let's talk about shauneco's view as a "traditional northern working class Labour voter" that "Theresa May isn't doing that bad". Since the 2010 coalition and more importantly the 2015 General Election the NHS and other institutions are in crisis, austerity has been proven to be a sham, and the National debt is going to be higher than ever before. In fact this Conservative government will have borrowed more by 2020 than any other Labour government combined.Source: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/comment-page-1/So it's not hard to see why someone would find flaws in shauneco's comment about being Labour but being happy with an unelected Tory PM. The two do not go hand in hand. Either he was a UKIP supporter pre referendum and has now believed the lies that May is the right person to carry us forward with Brexit. Or he is a floating voter. A traditional Labour voter especially one from the North would never support a Tory government tearing this country apart. Back to Corbyn. Corbyn isn't even far left. He's an advocate of socialism within a capitalist democracy. If you view believe that people should be free to earn what they deserve but to keep these fat cat corporates in check to prevent them screwing the standard worker to achieve that then you are a socialist. If you believe that certain vital institutions should transcend profit and not be used to meet targets or sold off to the highest bidder then you are a socialist. Corbyn's view of socialism isn't an issue. It allows people to achieve but prevents full on exploitation. It's also protects key British assets. The fact you and Shauneco claim to be traditional Labour voters is laughable. Corbyn is trying to create actual change but this neo liberal old guard have done their upmost to prevent him doing so. If he was allowed to carry out this change then he'd target these common malpractices in British Politics and these self serving MPs in both parties would be targeted. Like I said. Keep believing those tabloid rags Shauneco. But stop pretending that your a traditional left wing Labour voter. You are far from it despite your background.




    I have no idea about the background to your issue with Shauneco. This is not meant in a confrontational way, but I would make the following observation. The length and depth of your 3 posts on this thread alone do come across as a rather obsessive. You may, or may not, want to reflect on them as they are not a particularly good look on anyone. Such things can appear different in daylight, as opposed to midnight and 5 a.m. Not seeking a ding-dong, just an honest observation from an impartial onlooker. Your call on how you choose to move forward with Shauneco - each to their own of course.

    Saturn

    I have no idea about the background to your issue with Shauneco. This is … I have no idea about the background to your issue with Shauneco. This is not meant in a confrontational way, but I would make the following observation. The length and depth of your 3 posts on this thread alone do come across as a rather obsessive. You may, or may not, want to reflect on them as they are not a particularly good look on anyone. Such things can appear different in daylight, as opposed to midnight and 5 a.m. Not seeking a ding-dong, just an honest observation from an impartial onlooker. Your call on how you choose to move forward with Shauneco - each to their own of course.


    Hopefully the mods are taking note. I'm not sure what his problem is tbh, it does seem a rather obsessive character assassination attempt. Luckily most other Hukd members aren't as shallow.

    dtovey89

    Right on cue Fred Smith appears and does shauneco's talking for him. Yeah … Right on cue Fred Smith appears and does shauneco's talking for him. Yeah because I sound so much more like a UKIP voter than shauneco...Ill ignore that one as it's absurd. Secondly the fact that you think Ed shifted Labour from Centre left to far left is revealing. In reality Ed used the trade unions to win the Labourship election race against Brother David (earning the name Red Ed) but then happily screwed them once he was in power. It makes sense to see why you would define him as that because it suits your anti Corbyn agenda. It allows you to say Labour were far left under Ed Miliband but are trying to go one step further under Corbyn. And then you can start throwing around your favourite Trotskyist phrase. Miliband was only ever a slight shift from Blair that it was barely noticeable. It was still centre New Labour that failed to prevent an alternative solution to a Conservative Party propped up by the Lib Dems. In fact it was so out of touch it allowed a Lib Dem-Tory coalition to be replaced by a full on majority Tory government. Now let's talk about shauneco's view as a "traditional northern working class Labour voter" that "Theresa May isn't doing that bad". Since the 2010 coalition and more importantly the 2015 General Election the NHS and other institutions are in crisis, austerity has been proven to be a sham, and the National debt is going to be higher than ever before. In fact this Conservative government will have borrowed more by 2020 than any other Labour government combined.Source: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/comment-page-1/So it's not hard to see why someone would find flaws in shauneco's comment about being Labour but being happy with an unelected Tory PM. The two do not go hand in hand. Either he was a UKIP supporter pre referendum and has now believed the lies that May is the right person to carry us forward with Brexit. Or he is a floating voter. A traditional Labour voter especially one from the North would never support a Tory government tearing this country apart. Back to Corbyn. Corbyn isn't even far left. He's an advocate of socialism within a capitalist democracy. If you view believe that people should be free to earn what they deserve but to keep these fat cat corporates in check to prevent them screwing the standard worker to achieve that then you are a socialist. If you believe that certain vital institutions should transcend profit and not be used to meet targets or sold off to the highest bidder then you are a socialist. Corbyn's view of socialism isn't an issue. It allows people to achieve but prevents full on exploitation. It's also protects key British assets. The fact you and Shauneco claim to be traditional Labour voters is laughable. Corbyn is trying to create actual change but this neo liberal old guard have done their upmost to prevent him doing so. If he was allowed to carry out this change then he'd target these common malpractices in British Politics and these self serving MPs in both parties would be targeted. Like I said. Keep believing those tabloid rags Shauneco. But stop pretending that your a traditional left wing Labour voter. You are far from it despite your background.



    Corbyn at the Fabian Society hustings - "we need to defend the principle of 'From each according to their abilities; to each according to their needs.'" - do you know what that principle refers to? Corbyn is a Marxist.

    Ed wasn't 'red' eh... government regulation of private housing sector including setting rents - controls imposed on energy industry including price - government control of banks - Stalinist plan to take land in rural areas and build major developments in the countryside - compulsory purchase of land in urban areas - NHS partly funded by taxes on expensive homes - control of regional bus services returned to local authorities including the ability to set fares and routes... I guess you didn't know Ed as well as you thought you did.

    Now for this 'change' Corbyn is promising - renationalising the railways (impossible while we are in the EU - EU Railway Directive 2012), renationalising energy utilities, Royal Mail and telephone networks (impossible while we are in the EU), reintroduction of the 50% income tax rate and a top rate of 75%, unilateral nuclear disarmament, withdrawing from NATO...
    Kinder gentler politics... abandoning innocent Syrian civilians to the barrel bombs of Assad and Putin.

    Saturn

    I have no idea about the background to your issue with Shauneco. This is … I have no idea about the background to your issue with Shauneco. This is not meant in a confrontational way, but I would make the following observation. The length and depth of your 3 posts on this thread alone do come across as a rather obsessive. You may, or may not, want to reflect on them as they are not a particularly good look on anyone. Such things can appear different in daylight, as opposed to midnight and 5 a.m. Not seeking a ding-dong, just an honest observation from an impartial onlooker. Your call on how you choose to move forward with Shauneco - each to their own of course.



    Talking football he's a great chap but I'm not the only one whose noticed the blatant contradictions in his posts over the years.

    I haven't crossed any lines. I'm simply asking him questions which he is either refusing to answer or spinning.

    To suggest character assassination is poor form on your behalf. There hasn't been anything personal - only questioning posts he has made. Furthermore, half the content in my posts ITT are providing points to back up my questions and one whole post is me responding to Fred Smith not Shauneco so a slight oversight on your behalf.

    But you're right. He hasn't given a clear or consistent answer in years and I wasn't expecting anything new. So on that note they were actually very long rhetorical questions on my behalf.



    Edited by: "dtovey89" 8th Mar

    Fred.Smith

    Corbyn at the Fabian Society hustings - "we need to defend the principle … Corbyn at the Fabian Society hustings - "we need to defend the principle of 'From each according to their abilities; to each according to their needs.'" - do you know what that principle refers to? Corbyn is a Marxist.Ed wasn't 'red' eh... government regulation of private housing sector including setting rents - controls imposed on energy industry including price - government control of banks - Stalinist plan to take land in rural areas and build major developments in the countryside - compulsory purchase of land in urban areas - NHS partly funded by taxes on expensive homes - control of regional bus services returned to local authorities including the ability to set fares and routes... I guess you didn't know Ed as well as you thought you did.Now for this 'change' Corbyn is promising - renationalising the railways (impossible while we are in the EU - EU Railway Directive 2012), renationalising energy utilities, Royal Mail and telephone networks (impossible while we are in the EU), reintroduction of the 50% income tax rate and a top rate of 75%, unilateral nuclear disarmament, withdrawing from NATO... Kinder gentler politics... abandoning innocent Syrian civilians to the barrel bombs of Assad and Putin.



    Miliband... Stalinist?
    That's enough Fred for today.

    dtovey89

    Miliband... Stalinist? That's enough Fred for today.



    Who said Miliband was a Stalinist?

    Fred.Smith

    Who said Miliband was a Stalinist?


    You did refer to Ed's

    Stalinist plan to take land in rural areas and build major developments … Stalinist plan to take land in rural areas and build major developments in the countryside


    You're getting as erratic as poor old Shaune. But, don't worry, I'm sure someone will wade in to defend you shortly.
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